Liverpool Banter Archive January 13 2015

13 Jan 2015 22:11:27
So we spent £117m in the summer. Should we have just bought Gareth Bale?

Would be have left Madrid?

He might be leaving anyway by the sounds of it.

14 Jan 2015 08:16:03
Kept the entire team the same but swapped Suarez for Bale. at least it would have answer the question from 2012/2013 of who was a better player!

14 Jan 2015 10:48:49
Didn't really think it was a debate! Only thing Bale had on Saurez was that he didn't do stupid things that got him massive bans!

14 Jan 2015 12:53:37
Say that around WHL and you'll get. well, some good natured ribbing and a well reasoned discussion but that's a big reaction from them!

It's stupid scenario for so many reasons I don't have the time to get get into to. Excluding his preferences as to where he wants to play you, you may want To consider his buyout clause of several hundred mil not to mention his 15mil a year wages. I haven't even touched the surface. This isn't fifa 2015

14 Jan 2015 14:06:01
Sorry, was a tongue in cheek post as the price quoted for Man U to take Bale happened to be the same as what some reports are saying we spent in the summer!

Would much rather have a sane Suarez, but I'm sure some of his genius is in his madness!

14 Jan 2015 18:34:10
Your humour wasn't lost on all of us mate,

13 Jan 2015 20:26:49
hi eds can you some how show who has pressed the agree and disagree buttons to your post, because it would be good to see who agrees with what you post and have more of a chat over the post the same goes for the disagree, because i posted a personal message to EMS and the one who keeps disagreeing with every single post i put up has done it again, at least i would know who it is, thanks eds

{Ed002's Note - No.}

I have disagreed with this post as think there should be a right to anonymity. For what it's worth I wouldn't worry about who agrees or disagrees especially if they are on a wind up. It will just lead to petty arguments. Anyone who disagrees and has an opinion worth listening too will probably post a reply as well, more often than not anyway.

Sorry, but I think you need a thicker skin here. Folks should be able to disagree or agree as they can now. I don't always agree with myself some days! Don't get twisted about it, it's all just a bit of fun - even if it is more important than life or death :-)

Get rid of 'em Ed (the butttons that is). A serious case of FOWOPT spreading on this site!

Give Adam a shout for the number for the Samaritans.

Hope that helps 😉

I disagreed with this post. Then I panicked and agreed as well in case I was revealed without my consent. 😊

Can we also have a 'not bothered' / ambivalent button for people who couldn't give a toss one way or the other?

How about an agree to disagree button?

14 Jan 2015 08:17:13
What is FOWOPT?

13 Jan 2015 18:33:53
Brendan Rodgers has been talking to Ravel Morrison about signing for us this week. What with his fantastic 'man management' skills and his ability to sort out troubled players like Suarez and The excellent work with Balotelli, I think he has unearthed a gem. This time next year Madrid will come for Ravel and he will be an England international. Wait til you all see the transformation after Buck has a few sessions with him.

Ballon D'or the year after!

Never been so torn on a post. Totally agree buy not sure if that means agree or disagree!

13 Jan 2015 17:44:41
If anyone can help, will I be removed from the auto cup scheme if I don't purchase my allocated ticket?

Mate who knows the ticketing scheme is a farce. saved up some cash for second round of sales and didn't even get past the online queue

How many can you buy? As I had been going to capital cup games, until bouremouth, and could purchase these ones that your unable to attend, keeping you eligible for the next round if we make it through? Just an idea.

14 Jan 2015 08:22:23
Sorted now, I'm going anyway cheers

13 Jan 2015 13:44:21
Right so, let me get something of my chest. Like most, I have been far from pleased with Liverpools performances this season (considering the impressive displays for the most part of last season). But all I read here on a regular basis is the usual drivel about get rid of this player, get rid of that player, get rid of the manager.

A significant amount of young(ish) talent joined joined the team in the summer, yes, they may not be impressing like Suarez or Sanchez for that matter in their first half of a season with the club but the introduction of this many players was only going to cause a lack of understanding and cohesion between the current and new stock of players. Given time, even Balotelli will eventually gel with the squad and start scoring. So why, six months into the season following last do you all want rid of Rodgers and a multitude of the players? What is a new manager going to bring other than a new crop of players who once again will need to gel and the team go through yet another "rebuilding" few years?

I remember the days when we were all about "Give em a chance", that was supporting Liverpool, not the trash that gets bandied out now.

{Ed001's Note - so the fact that he signed all these players is not his fault then?}

13 Jan 2015 14:23:19
Not to mention his embarrassing press conferences. His marginalising of some key players. His lack of any cohesive plan to develop and integrate the younger players from the U21s. His tactical 'stubbornness'.

What happened with the Remy deal did it relate to balotelli coming? ? ?

{Ed002's Note - The manager decided he did not want to complete the transfer.}

Ed do you not think most of the new signing are starting to look like good signings and I do think mario will become good

{Ed002's Note - I am not convinced by all of them.}

13 Jan 2015 14:34:32
It is irrelevant whether or not I am a Rodgers fan but , G-Force , you have glossed over the fact that he chose to replace a world class player with nine players of potential . He is paid to manage situations like that and he clearly failed to do so . He will of course blame everything and everyone but himself .

The price for failure , especially with American owners , can only be one thing .

Maybe he should have bought players that were ready for the first team. We spent 120 mil and were pretty much a worse first 11 than last year. If i had promised the title to the owners the first thing I would have done was buy a world class striker and keeper.

13 Jan 2015 14:38:11
{Ed001's Note - so the fact that he signed all these players is not his fault then?}
====================

Are you sure its his fault though?, am not arguing, nor am I a big BR fan, so I am not defending him, but I think for the sake of fairness we can't pin all the blame on him. I don't understand how this transfer committee works (do you ?) , the fact that its a committee it means not all the decisions will be his, he would've had to compromise; there would've been policies set by some "body" and they have to adhere to these policies, one of them might have been , don't buy one expensive player, but buy 3 cheaper with potential so we can resell etc etc . Also the Sanchez debacle , I won't think BR was doing the negotiation , whoever was doing it in my opinion could've done more, ok he want London, but convince him he would be special at Liverpool, probably offer more wages etc , we finished last season second , so we would've been in a powerful position to negotiate considering at the time, Arsenal had to go through a qualifier to get to CL.

{Ed002's Note - Decisions to buy players is based on consensus and not compromise. There are no odd "policies" driving the purchase of the players as you suggest. Rodgers does not undertake any negotiation - and Sanchez was not interested in a move to Liverpool.}

Someone just had an argument with me about the net spend of Rodgers this season and my reply to that person was how much more money should Rodgers have been given on top of the £117m or so total spent on transfers alone on 9 new players this season and how many more players Rodgers should have signed because of his net spend? Where is the bloody sense?

That is why the net spend argument is such a load of rubbish. So Rodgers should have got another £117m on top of the original amount for another 9 players just so that he will have a massive net spend and put the club into an even bigger debt ridden hole plus send the wage bill into far beyond into the red. I just do not get the net spend mentality.

The financial outlay this season is one which this club has never seen before and we are where exactly this season? In what shape or form should that be acceptable for anyone connected with Liverpool FC?

Yes problem is with signing players who are ready for the first 11 they come with big wages and where trying to lower are wage bill but also how many of these players are Rodgers first choice we all know we wanted begovic and instead we got mignolet

Well then Rodgers should have declined on signing Mignolet and stuck with Reina. He could have kept Agger too instead of signing Lovren plus held onto Martin Kelly who is having a very good season at Palace and said no to Manquillo. Wisdom first team regular at WBA? Rejecting Remy and saying yes to Balotelli?

Cleggy1983, let's not try and sugar coat things please.

Reins wanted to leave . I don't agree with all he does but I just think he deserves us to stick with him till end of season and judge him then if not where no better than the mancs

Cleggy1983, the negatives outweigh the positives. Rodgers clearly will get til the end of the season but he has proven is that the LFC job is far to big for him.

The mancs are ahead of us so with more injuries than any other team this season so to use that as an bargaining tool clearly shows how deluded some people are when it comes to Rodgers. He will not even admit that what ever he did for most of the first half of the season tactics wise, team selection etc is the reason why we are where we are. he would rather balme it on players settling in, transition or not finding the right system etc.

Rodgers will never change, a leopard never changes its spots. Even Benitez is proof of this!

It's not deluded I just think with what he did last season we should support him while he's incharge and this season is far from a write off where still in 3 cups and only 5 points off 4th where always stronger second half of season and with the returning Sturidge we have reasons to look up

Cleggy1983

Your correct to say how crap we've been to be 5pts off 4th isn't bad going really.

But unfortunately I don't see Rodgers being the man to take us forward.
Through his stubbornness we find ourselves being so far out of the title race.

He bought players in we didn't really need.
I like markovic and think he will be good but did we really need him and send Jordan ibe on loan?

Also when I read about origi coming back and spending even more on a player to sit on the bench, that would just sum up Brendon's stupidity.

13 Jan 2015 13:27:05
I can see that a lot of people here are still in denial regarding Lucas's impending transfer away from the club (either this month or in the summer; regardless it looks certain to happen).

All I keep seeing though is people saying we don't have anybody to do that job, Delph is a rubbish replacement etc.

In my humble opinion, we should look towards a Henderson-Can midfield partnership as a long term solution though. Both players are good both defensively and going forward. You wouldn't want to see either player shackled in front of the back 4 every week for 90 minutes. They both have very good tactical awareness though, read the game fairly well, put in a tremendous shift and have the pace and power to make lung bursting runs forward and the qulaity to do something at the end of them. If they were instructed to alternate these runs in a kind of double pivot in midfield it would mean there will always be one player holding and one joining the attack whichever way round it is (exactly how Lucas and Henderson are currently playing if you watch carefully). By rotating these box to box duties you preserve energy (allowing the midfield to retain it's mobility and pressing capabilities for the full game) and reduce the chances of muscular injuries.

It is unorthodox and certainly something I haven't seen in my lifetime very often and you have to go back to the days of Graeme Souness and Ronnie Whelan to see the last example of a pair of players capable of this role in a Liverpool shirt.

Of course the modern game tends to prefer specialists going forward or holding (ie Matic and Fabregas; one who rarely ventures forward and another who is scared of his own half).

You can very easily see that Lucas is being asked to play a more box to box role currently though. He is not sitting deeper than Henderson, but rather playing in a double pivot in which they take turns in pressing forward. Lucas may be an absolutely brilliant midfielder (probably our most under rated player in my lifetime) but he doesn't offer anything in the final 3rd; unlike Can who has a very good shot on him and Henderson who has the vision to see runs in behind and grabs the odd goal despite his erratic shooting. Take nothing away from Lucas though, he makes our midfield tick.

This is why Joe Allen doesn't suit Liverpool's style. He is not particularly tenacious or powerful (at least Lucas is robust!) and he doesn't offer enough going forward. There are a fair few myths surrounding him such as he only passes side ways or backwards (69% of his passes go forward in actual FACT) and that he can't tackle; 18 completed out of 35 tackles gives him the highest success rate out of all of our midfielder (to put that into perspective, Lucas has completed 19 out of 73, although he is the king of tactical fouls so don't read too much into that). Allen's tends to be a more calculated tackler though. His lack of tenacity doesn't suit the pressing game. He would rather sit back, maintain shape and then intercept the pass or tackle the player when he takes a heavy touch than charge out and get stuck in. He just isn't the right player for us right now, but he does not deserve the vile abuse he recieves every day on this site and on others.

In terms of Fabian Delph now; all I keep seeing is posts about how he can't repalce Lucas. He doesn't need to be the same sort of player. He offers more going forward for certain and in the double pivot midfield he has the tenacity, the work rate, the physicality, and technical skills required to do a good job there for a relatively low fee and salary. Is he better than Henderson, Lucas or Can? No. Is he better in the role we require than Gerrard or Allen? Yes. With Lucas leaving, we need a player who is capable of covering Hendo and Can in case of injury. Do you really want to rely on Gerrard or Allen with their individual deficiencies that make them incapable of playing a box to box role effectively? It would be madness to do so.

Of course, we have Williams and Rossiter who are not far away from being ready as well as Phillips and Chirivella who are only a few years off as well. So do you really want to go out and blow £20-30m on a player like Strootman of Lars Bender when we have an array of talent waiting in the reserves and players more than capable of playing there in the short term? We've already signed Can to play there and Hendo is essentially club captain as of this summer so it relegates Can to the subs bench. Or you save your cash and opt for a cheaper option who can provide short term cover whislt we develop the talent in the academy.

Don't get me wrong, I'd be fighting tooth and nail to keep Lucas so Delph isn't even required, but he is not going to be signed to sit in front of the back 4 as a lone holding midfielder. That isn't his game remotely. That isn't how Lucas is currently being used. I've seen Lucas break up opposition attacks about 30 yards from the oppositions goal in the last 4 or 5 games. Delph is capable of performing that role at Premeir League level and with just 6 months on his contract and our dwindling financial situation, we aren't really in the position to be too picky. Milner and Kheideira would be the only other options who may be avaiable but I dread to think what their wage demands are and again, you sign them and you drop Can. We can't keep replacing our new signings before they even get a kick in their preferred position.

Like it or not, Lucas looks likely to leave and we don't have the funds to replace him with a player as proven as he is, and it would be an almighty kick in the teeth for Can (who isn't a centre back, regardless of how well he is covering for Toure). There is more than one way to play the game. We don't necessarily need a dedicated holding midfielder who never crosses the half way line. We're not playing with one at the minute and we've won 3 of our last 4 games. Lucas is our only player capable of playing as a lone holding midfielder because he reads the game so well, but why buy a specialist holding midfielder like De Rossi and then ask him to play a box to box role? Can and Henderson have shown me enough to believe that they can play together in an Souness-Whelan style midfield where both players get up and down the pitch all game every game without sacrificing defensive solidity. Delph isn't and never will be a 'great' player, but he will be a better back up than Allen and Gerrard purely because he has the legs and skills required to do the job well.

Sooner or later people need to accept that A) we're skint B) Can is a talented midfielder and deserves a chance before we replace him or shackle him in defence and C) Lucas wants out.

Fingers crossed we talk Lucas out of leaving, but if we don't, I see absolutely know problem with opting for a financially sensible option rather than bringing more Uefa officials to our door by spending big bucks on a player to replace a player we signed 6 months ago. For all the abuse Rodgers has had for signing squad player, this is one situation where we need to be relaistic and sensible in my opinion.

Henderson, Can, Delph, Allen, Rossiter and Williams is more than enough midfield quality for me.

I'm open for debate though so hit me with your best shots lads! :)

Agree with you entirely. Emre Can is the ideal candidate to replace Lucas. It makes far more sense to develop Can into a holding/central midfielder than going out and buying, yet another, questionable midfielder. Let's not forget that Lucas started out as an attacking midfielder when he was voted as Brazil's player of the year, so it's not a far reach to develop and train Can into a holding role. Maybe it's wishful thinking but I expect Can to be even better than Lucas. He is more technical, has better stamina and lungs and, quite a few times, I've seen a mean streak in him that'll make people hesitate when they're face to face with him. I think he is wasted playing the right fullback role in a back 3. He was clearly not comfortable and was either hoofing it out asap or passing sideways or back.

13 Jan 2015 14:05:27
Henderson, Can, Allen and the kids is enough.

The main focus is making Hendo and Can your midfield and give chances to Rossiter and Williams. Allen for rotations.

Good Read.

What about delap?

13 Jan 2015 14:14:39
That midfield looks very young and inexperienced to me. I think we might find it hard without a more senior player in there - all the top teams have one or more.

Not saying that midriffs wouldn't do well, EMS, I would just have concerns going into the rest of 2015 like that

Good post although in not sure what Delph brings? He's fit and willing, but doesn't posses any thing that Henderson doesn't, whereas lucas does.

13 Jan 2015 14:18:11
Only disagreement would be that I think if you watch Lucas currently he doesn't do much more than sit in front of the back 3. Not a box to box role if you ask me; I wonder if Can is disciplined enough to do that and protect the defence.

Cheers Ra, agreed. I agree to some extent Jabato mate. I'm just hesitant as too whether Rossiter or Williams are physically ready. I certainly wouldn't object to giving them both more game time though!

Sorry Fencey, I just couldn't think of a way to justify dropping Glen Johnson so I think Delap is a no go ;)

13 Jan 2015 14:36:24
Delap is a utility player , he can fit in anywhere .

Agree with you for most of that EMS but I would still prefer not to take Delphi at all and wait til summer when we may be able to raise funds and buy someone decent. He'll just be a cup game player on a big sighing on fee and high wages. We spent ages getting rid of players that fell into that bracket ( and even managed to accrue a few more) anyone who comes in has to improve the first 11 or I'd just rather use the youth than see more money wasted.

Ps good post, don't know how you found the time to write it!

Please don't use squawka.

My information is that Brenda is not going to sign Delph but single handedly ruin Emre Can's career by playing him in goal as a replacement for Mig's.

13 Jan 2015 14:57:37
Get your point but disagree tbh. Yes Can is a great prospect and tbh would love for him and henderson to be our starting midfield with someone a bit more attack minded put into it (couts, sterling or lallana).

But in regards to delph, is he an ok player who can play DM? Yes. Is he more athletic then lucas? Yes. But more importantly, would he be better then lucas given playing his current role? NO!

Whether we can keep lucas or not is debatable but replacing lucas with a player who isn't better or at least as good seems like the wrong choice. Yes Can may be able to play the role better but if he gets injured or needs a rest you are still replacing a player with that or less quality (rossiter is a year or more off so not counting him). Seeing as Lucas has been vital in our resurgence getting rid of him and replacing him with a player who would provide less seems like the wrong choice.

Can say henderson or allen can play his role but let's be honest they can't. Allen hasn't been able to get within touching distance of lucas' role and Henderson is massively shackled played DM which doesn't get the most out of him. Big worry would be in replacing lucas with delph is that we would have only 1 DM of real quality and seeing as our defence regularly gets taken to pieces I would have serious concerns about this.

I agree with you about hendo and Can forming a midfield partnership, and because of their age they can be a good partnership for years to come and as time goes by it will just get better and better, i have to disagree with you over lucas though i just don't get all the hype around him, when i watch him play i see his mistakes as well as his good play, that is what gets me though people seem to gloss over his mistakes which he makes a lot of them, you say he passes the ball forward a lot but as we all do know about which is also fact he does pass the ball sideways and backwards a lot more, while he is doing these passes he is stopping attacks or don't you agree with that fact EMS, in my opinion he won't be that much of a loss, and with delph he will add some thing we have not had for years and that's a bit of steel in our midfield i just wish we had some one like souness

13 Jan 2015 15:31:28
I agree with everything except that there is any point in bringing in a player like Delph. Either we should be forking out for top talent to instantly do the job whilst players mature around them, or we should let the players mature with gametime as quick as possible. Having someone who can do the job but not do it particularly well like Delph is just throwing away money better invested in areas where we are talent light even in terms of youth prospects e.g. goalkeeper

Mbrock, Lucas passes forwards 76% of the time. The highest of all the midfielders at the club I think.

Thanks for all the civil replies lads. I like having a proper discussion ratger than it descending into personal attacks.

Most of the disagreements tend to be about Delph, which is fair enough. We can't all rate the same players I suppose ;)

{Ed002's Note - Lucas is the furthest back of the midfield players EMS so that is to be expected.}

Sorry but Allen is nowhere near good enough if we want to be challenging for honours. How anyone can justify a player who is so physically weak and lacking any discernible ability or role is beyond me, we should be cashing in on him, not Lucas. Lucas adds experience, nous, a calm head and a lot of ability in covering the defence.

{Ed002's Note - But Lucas wants to leave.}

I know Ed, it was just a response to mbrock saying he goes backwards or sideways most of the time, when in actual fact he goes forward most of the time by quite a large majority. Suprisingly, Lucas actually goes forward more than than Gerrard (74%) and Can (61%) who both play deeper than Lucas most of the time.

He is under rated in his contribution to building attacks from the back in a really composed manner in my opinion. I do think Can would excell if given the chance to stake a claim in our midfield though.

I heard that Inter want a loan for Lucas with a view to buy in the summer.
I heard we had turned that down flat.
I hope this means we won't et him go until the summer.
We should be saying to him "stay a few months and then go where you want"
As for Delph, I like him, although I am not sure he is a massive improvement on what we have.
If we signed him I would be happy though.
Also we have a good few young players who might save us some money by filling Lucas's role when he does leave.

This is where I can't support all the 'Lucas is such a great, underrated player' supporters.
Lucas is a decent player and will do a job as a holding midfielder probably as well if not better than anyone in our squad. Fine.

The defensive midfielder should break up player more than anyone else on the pitch, this is because they sit in the position where they can break up/ snuff out the final ball, which needs to be found in order to score (a rather key aspect of the game of football).
Lucas does this well and plays the ball out well enough too. That's all good, that's his job as a defensive midfielder.
Gerrard doesn't cut out play anywhere near as effectively as Lucas because he never has been a holding midfielder so the whole idea of keeping his position, knowing when to break out of it and where to go is not as natural for him. It is in no way surprising that now we are playing Lucas and Hendo as a central midfield pair we look more balanced and defensively stable as they complement one another better as a pairing and both are playing in their natural positions.
So yes, if we were to lose Lucas this January without a replacement it would be a disaster.
But if we did have someone to come in for him, someone younger, more mobile and suited to the quick tempo of the English game come in, it would be by no means a problem.
The defensive midfielder is the most important outfield player in the modern game. They control the defence, the starting of attacks, the tempo of a team and keep the shape, and that is why Chelsea WILL win the league: they have Nemanja Matic.
Matic is the most important player in the league and the best defensive midfielder in the country by some distance, if not the world.
He has turned over possession on average 7 times a game this season- for a Chelsea side who are one of the best at keeping possession in the league. He is a phenomenal passer of the ball and knows exactly when to look for the killer ball and when to keep it simple.
He is physically outstanding, reminiscent of Viera in some respects, strong, tall and fast.

Matic does all the defensive midfielder needs to do to keep a solid performance, as does Lucas, but Matic can do so much more. He can win a challenge 70-30 in the opposition's favour due to his physique and self-confidence. He can play a 40 yard diagonal ball, just like Gerrard does and has the capability to score from anywhere in his opponents' half, yet still keeps his position and thus Chelsea's shape.
Yes they've been on a bad run lately- triggered by Matic's suspension away at Newcastle, where they lost for the first time this season (coincidence?)- but Chelsea are the only team that have a player that can do what Matic does, and those are the players that win you the big points that win you the big titles,

This is in no way slating Lucas, he's a decent Liverpool player (if at times a little too slow and not comfortable enough in possession) and I respect him immensely for his dealing with awful abuse from fans throughout his time here, but to heap praise on him for doing his job is going over the top. He's solid, but he's not a top quality player.

13 Jan 2015 18:04:44
Ed002 point is of course he passes forward more as everyone bar the keeper and defenders are in front of him
Been honest lucas will leave now or the summer (try wait for the summer) Gerrard Toure also leaving we need experienced quality players not an average 24/25 year old

Excellent post, well thought out and expertly written. . top man east midlands scouser !! Great read

Thing is though, take away lucas and you take away the most disciplined of our centre midfielders, so if he leaves bringing in someone as indisciplined and tactically inept as Delph really solves nothing. Obviously Lucas wants to leave, really the club should try and Keep him until a suitable ready made replacement is obtained. If the midfield options at the beginning of next season was Henderson, Can, Allen and Delph and the kids, I would despair, if we lost either can or Henderson we would be left very weak in a crucial position. Just the thought of an an Allen/Delph partnership makes me shudder.

I have stated many times that I would be happy to let Lucas go as I do think he's overrated but I would not sell him and keep Allen nor would I sell him and buy Delph.
I'd happily sell him and play Can in that role and promote a youngster to the squad first

Hi EMS. A fine post there, I have a mixed-bag of a response.

I don't agree that Lucas is currently playing box-to-box, nor do I agree that he has been playing (positionally) in front of Hendo recently.

Lucas has always been the deeper player in that combination - but fair play to Hendo - who covers pretty well when Lucas does step out - which he does very selectively, when the opportunity to press arises.

True though that when playing Gerrard at DM. Rodgers does use Lucas as a box-to-box type - again displaying a criminal misuse of an excellent player. Rodgers really is an awful judge of a players best abilities and whilst Lucas has coped admirably despite this mismanagement - he will never look at his imperious best when (mis)used as a box-to-box type.

With a back 3 the Hendo-Lucas combo works well, with wing-backs given a lot of freedom. With 4, the variation is different, and demands a specialist in front of the defence - but has the added bonus of creating space for a possible trio of Lucas, Can, Hendo - with perhaps Coutinho/Sterling as a No.10 - or with wing-forwards if we choose.

For me, the best sides do not overcommit and I do not share the view that all midfielders should attack.

The best sides - without fail - all have a player who sits deep - who keeps the shape, tempo and the possession. This is KEY - and BR's failure to recognise the importance of this role - and of finding a player who can do the job properly - is what has cost him.

A Can-Hendo duo seems defensively unstable imo - and I would share Mr Dennis's concerned if that was our midfield.

I have seen Hendo play a few times at DM before for England U21's and he was abysmal each time, so I'd be wary. Reading the game defensively is not about being able to run all day - or even about strength and technique - all of which Hendo & Can possess.

A player needs great intelligence to play such a role as DM. I do not think Can or Hendo possess that just yet and see both as more box-to-box type players. Maybe with time they could develop as such though.

My 'darling' Lucas is an example of someone who grew into the role of DM superbly - but then, he is not like Hendo or Can - he was player of the year in Brazil at a young age and demonstrated much more promise.

I do watch the game carefully and to me it does seem that you are being a tad revisionist here - as last week you said you barely noticed Lucas, but now you are imploring people to 'watch carefully' and suggesting they alternate forward runs.

They really do not. Lucas holds, and Hendo is the more advanced, barring very rare forays forward. It is almost always Lucas who picks the ball from the defence - and Hendo provides him an outlet - Gerrard doesn't seem to 'get' it however, and his tactical naivety disrupts our play immensely as he drops amongst the defence, plays poor passes, dwells on the ball and tries to over-elaborate - if SG watched Hendo he would see how he should play in tandem w/ Lucas.

But expecting BR to notice these things is like expecting a pig to fly.

I find that if the two box-to-box types alternate - confusion usually reigns - such as the old England Gerrard-Lampard dilemma.

I totally agree though that Allen or Gerrard have no place playing either of the deeper or withdrawn midfield roles in the current system.

Though with 4 at the back I'd personally find a spot for Allen - who I still see as a good squad player - whilst I'd always consider using Gerrard as an AMC/No.10 in a 442 diamond or as the most attacking midfielder in a 433.

I really don't rate Delph tbh - though it is a fair pont that he'd be better in the current system than Gerrard or Allen - but also - comparing Can-Hendo to Whelan-Souness or (for another similar example) Vieira-Petit is a bit much - nevermind that these were extraordinary players (Whelan is criminally underrated, as is Petit) who played in legendary teams.

Also bear in mind that these sides had Dalglish and Bergkamp respectively dropping into midfield to essentially make their systems 451. I recall reading some years back, where Ian Rush was talking about the misconception of Liverpool as a side that played a 442 in his biography.

I enjoyed the read as always EMS. I suspect that many of the disagrees stem from not rating Delph - or disagreeing with the idea of Lucas as a box-to-box player as overall I found it most interesting.

If we formed our own boot-room I'm sure we'd find an excellent compromise that we'd all be happy with.

Lastly, I also don't think Can will stay at CD. I think most of us see him as a midfielder in some capacity in future - and fingers crossed on Lucas staying. I reckon it'll haunt BR if he goes, as our performances will surely decline due to his lack of foresight and poor judgement.

For me, Can at CD is just another example of shambolic planning (or lack of planning) by BR. We had around 9 CD players in pre-season, so he ships out almost all of them and then decides to play 3 at the back when we have 4 in the squad and an African Cup of Nations ahead. Nuts.

Honestly - the players are not my biggest concern. Rodgers is. Shambles isn't the word - and it will cost us dearly over a season.
:)

EMS stop it with these stats from squawka. When people say he passes sideways they mean there's no forward progression in his passes, ofcourse they go forward, if he passes the ball15 yards to the right, but 1 year forward that's a forward pass, but it's simply spreading play, rather than actually gaining territory or being penetrative.Squawka doesn't even have a stat for sideways passes. It's either back or forward.

{Ed001's Note - but it is gaining territory if it goes 1 yard forward, then it has gained 1 yard of territory. Lucas is one of those players he will never be appreciated by the fans as the good work he does is not picked up by commentators and pundits. What he does is not good for a highlight reel on youareatube either, so the lad will always be a victim of his own ability. If he was crap, he would just run around like a headless chicken and look great on the TV and everyone would be singing his praises.....}

I am not talking about Lucas ED but Joe allen, Sorry. I don't think Joe's passes offer anything.
I hate statistics being abused like that. Where the sideways pass isn't actually accountable. Which is what people see.

I like Lucas, I feel his passes when played forward have more conviction to open up the game, not however Joe Allen, who I feel passes the ball sideways and 1 yard forward for simply the sake of passing, without creating space to move into, he simply pushes along the posession.

I mean tom cleveley has a pass completion rate according to squawka of 64% infact he smacks Joe Allen in terms of chances created(in a poor Villa side) 18 to 7. But I think we all know Tom cleverley is not an incisive player. I am unsuare how chances created are record according to squawka.
Average forward passes are longer, than Allens.

Sorry Ed I hate it when statistics in football where the basis (for me) completely dubious and subjective foundations.

14 Jan 2015 12:55:25
Well call that the Noble effect Ed001. All passion, all energy, does very little useful

Kilbane; have to agree to disagree on Lucas's current role in the side. I've seen Henderson dropping deep to collect the ball just as often and I've seen Lucas pushing high up just as often. It isn't revisionist remotely. I said for the last 4 or 5 games i've noticed it, and you've mentioned a quote where I said I didn't notice how well Lucas played against Sunderland. I still recognised how he was being used, I just didn't recognise how effective he was at the first time of watching it. I re-watched the game on your recommendation though and agree he was brilliant.

I'm not suggesting we over commit btw, but with two midfielders who can attack and defend it allows us to push forward a bit more in possession. I have to disagree that the best teams have a dedicated holding midfielder though. Germany won the world cup with Kheideira and Kroos both getting up and down the pitch as a unit. I do agree though that it is the preferred style nowadays because very few players are good enough and mobile enough to consistently attack and defend effectively.

I wouldn't judge Henderson on his performances for a dire England U21 side with Pearce at the helm. He'd make Ronaldo look bad.

Agree regarding Gerrard causing disruption though mate. He can't effectively play as an out and out central midfielder.

Not sure what you mean by the Lampard-Gerrard comparison mate. Neither were ever effective box to box players. Both looked far better in the hole throughout their careers. England coaches jsut failed to realise this whilst constantly overlooking Carrick and Barry then scratching their heads when the midfield got constantly cut to shreads.

Spot on about Allen btw. He would suit being the deepest player in a diamond formation. He just can't play effecively as an orthodox central midfielder. He needs players in front of him to do the pressing, leg work and attacking for him.

Fair enough regarding Delph. I can accept that people's opinions differ.

I wasn't comparing Henderson and Can to Whelan and Souness though (Petit and Virea is another great example though mate) I was merely saying I would use them in the same manner as I believe they are capable. As they've never played alongside eachother, it is merely a speculative comparison based on the abiltiy I've seen in them. I've always compared Henderson to Whelan and Can could easily do what Souness did. He is just as physically imposing, solid defensively and can also bag a few goals from range. I genuinely think Hendo and Can could be our Petit and Viera. Only way to prove it is to try it.

We may not have Dalglish or Bergkamp dropping in but we do hae Coutinho and Lallana who play very similarly, albeit Coutinho is still a bit raw.

Likewise, I always enjoy your posts mate. They're very civil and very well thought out with backed up opinions.

Compeltely agree on Can. He is clearly doing well in defence, but it is also obviously not his preferred position.

Finally, completely agree on Rodgers too. I don't think he acutally knows his best formation, tactics or team. He seems to make it up as the season goes along, take credit for it when it works and then bemoan the transfer committe for buying him the wrong players when it goes wrong! It has already cost us dearly my friend :/

_____________________________

Bob I have to agree with Ed001 here mate. Even if a forward pass literally only goes 1 yard forward, it is still gaining territory. In fact, even if it goes directly sideways it is retaining territory which is just as important in some respects. Going backwards unnecessarily or because you're scared to go forward is when you have a problem in my opinion. Surely spreading the play is as good as a penetrative pass? It pulls the opposition out of shape and creates gaps for others to expose. Going backwards just invites pressure onto the team though and allows the opposition to press us back.

To conclude, passing sideways isn't an issue for me to be honest unless it's the defenders doing it for 85 minutes of the game!

Sorry EMS but I don't agree there.

I think we need a midfielder that can contribute a lot more than passing possession along. It's passing for passings sake which the ed's have previouslypointed out as a criticism of Rodgers

My main disagreement was the use of the stat, as you disagreed that he passes sideways qutoting a stat that never includes passes sideways. a statistical manipulation for me.

13 Jan 2015 12:02:09
Hi Edds.

When torres was at the club what teams (apart from chelsea obviously) were actually interested in him? did he ever nearly leave for another team?

just interested to find out

keep up the good work

{Ed002's Note - I don't recall any others.}

13 Jan 2015 09:14:36
Worrying signs coming from anfield today

Lucas on his way out

Delap lined up to replace him

Skrtel to begin contract talks. .

Is it only BR who thinks Lucas is no good and that and Delap is better

Is it only BR who thinks Skrtel is a good player.

{Ed002's Note - Delap?}

13 Jan 2015 09:29:34
I have always thought Rory Delap was just what we need , I can't wait to see those long throws flying in to Sterling and Coutinho at the far post .

Something of a surprise , though , seeing as he retired over a year ago but good call , Clee Red .

13 Jan 2015 09:30:54
Delap dancers, excellent

If we do go for Delap or Delph i'm thinking it won't be until the summer Ed when we can get him on a free?

13 Jan 2015 09:36:51
But ed he is great at throw ins just what we need lol.

ROFLCOPTER FOR CLEE RED!

Lol delap, at least we'll get some long throws out of it.

Joking aside on the Delap thing.

Selling Lucas to bring in Delph makes no sense at all, Delph is a big time Charlie with no discipline and an over inflated sense of self worth, his own opinion of his ability is vastly greater than his actual ability, if you stick him in Lucas' position, we will once again have a gaping hole that opposition midfielders will just run through.

Delap, Vinnie Jones and Toshack. That'll do for January!

13 Jan 2015 10:20:15
For the long throw ins Ed002. Its plan B!

Could someone please get the stats on how many times we lost the ball via a throw in thanks haha

Time to turn off predictive text I think ha ha

But not a comment on skrtel new contract. .

Clee red

we are only here to spot mistakes lol

Delph is quite injury prone too, and that is another thing against him.

Fabian Delph is a very good player. This will be another Ryan Bertrand on this site.

I certainly don't want Lucas to leave, nor do I see Delph as a Lucas type replacement, but Delph is a good player, have no doubts about that.

Nice to know I'm not alone in thinking that Jimmy. I thought for a second there I was mad ;)

I cannot say I want Delph, but then I cannot say he wouldn't be a good fit as I haven't really watched his game enough. Honest opinion.

Delph is better than Allen as an option, but that's not saying much.

Milner is the one we are after, free at the end of the season they say, could be but that's what I read, I would not sell lucas for Delph

13 Jan 2015 04:56:07
Afternoon Eds,

This isn't anything to do with Liverpool, but I was just wondering what the latest with Tommy Oar is?

His contract expires in 6 months and would like to know if anyone is interested in him.

Cheers

{Ed002's Note - I really don't know, sorry.}

13 Jan 2015 09:31:31
Is this a made-up name ?

Mr GM must be aussie. he plays for utrecht. Not liverpool standard

13 Jan 2015 05:45:09
{Ed001's Note - We have posted a new article entitled, Last chance saloon for Tottenham and Levy

13 Jan 2015 09:48:41
Spurs r terrible we have no strikers of any use since August and we r 2 points behind them their new arry will hit a rough patch.where will their goals come from.

Once again a good read.

12 Jan 2015 23:38:04
On a humorous note.
Roy Hodgson voted for macherano as the best player in the world. Messi and ronaldo we'rnt in his top 3.

Haha! Was Konchesky in his top 3?

Poulsen in top 3

It says it all really !!

Weird yes, but neither of messi or Ronaldo made Loews picks either.

13 Jan 2015 12:06:51
Hodgson top 3:

1) Mascherano
2) Welbeck
3) Wilshere

imagine that isn't far off tbh

12 Jan 2015 21:01:35
eds can you do a poll for who should plsy at def -mid Lucas or Emr Can please, it will clear it up, or fans can post after this post and say why one should playe over the other,

for me its Emre Can, because he is a better tackler, a better passer a better header, he is taller and strong and quicker also he passes the ball forward more with both short and long passes plus he will get more goals and win more headers all over the pitch, lucas can't do all that

Hi mbrock. Still sticking with this argument I see.

If you can't see what Lucas does for the team then you are a poor judge of a footballer in my view - but for the record, I'll address the 'points' (if you can call them that - as they were more a jumble of statements) which you brought up earlier - Just in case you missed my earlier reply to your earlier post.

1. It is not Lucas' job to score goals.
2. Yes, he does pass the ball forward more than ten times a game - though that is not necessarily good - obviously!
3. Yes, he does stop goals and attacks - that is what he does best - often stopping moves before they lead to shots/chances. Even in your world of stats which you seem cherish, that much is clear and undeniable.

He also does a lot more than that, as I have explained elsewhere in detail. Read the posts, as the eds say - I'm not explaining this again.

I also don't expect you fail to understand why our form has improved when you have missed everything that Lucas does.

Perhaps you are very young and forget just how excellent Lucas was before his injuries - or do you simply deny he was ever good? If so, you are clearly a bad judge of a player. No offence meant.

Also, judging on your thinking (as demonstrated by your post) - I suspect you wouldn't know the difference between a good DM player and an average one.

If you think playing at DM is about scoring goals and making last minute tackles - as you stated in your earlier posts, then I fear you are mistaken.

I also explained elsewhere that all defensive midfielders do not 'do the same thing' as you so simply put it in your earlier post.

If they did, then why would we need a new one?? According to you, wouldn't Can do the same thing as Lucas?? Seems your own words contradict your own argument and expose its underlying naivety.

Finally, as I asked elsewhere, how you can claim that Can is a better DM player than Lucas?!

I have not seen him demonstrate any outstanding abilities associated with the role such as closing down, reading of the game defensively, man-marking which have made me think he is up to the task.

Your assessment reminds me of Steve Heighway talking about what is wrong with the modern game. He said that the newly recruited players would turn up and every year - and every year the coaches would say 'look how big, strong, fast they are'.

"But can they play football?" he'd ask.

I have no idea where this 'Can is Lucas' replacement' idea first arrived on this site, as I have read it a few times - but allow me to repeat this to those who espouse such notions.

Can has not even played as a CDM player!! - so how on earth can these folks claim that Can is actually a better CDM than a guy who is a seasoned Brazilian international and knows the role inside-out!!

I blame FIFA and CM for this type of thinking tbh. Does he have good CDM ratings in these games or something??

However - I do think that Can certainly looks a good player. A great prospect.

I think Can will be better suited to a more attacking midfield role. I think his physicality and attacking ability would best suit playing slightly further forward.

Can certainly has demonstrated great potential to drive forward with ball - I reckon this is a quality that will become a trademark of his play - and would be wasted at CDM - Though I think he would compliment Lucas very well, I don't think he can replace him - they are very different styles of player.

Ideally, I reckon Can/Hendo should partner Lucas in front of a back 3 if we are to persist with the 3-4-3 system. Either option would offer protection in partnership with Lucas without the ball due to their physicality, work-rate and aerial ability, whilst letting Lucas be the primary DM who picks the ball from defence to play into midfield, offering an outlet for progressive passing in the midfield when we have the ball.

The likes of Allen and Gerrard in my view, lack the required attributes to fulfil such roles.

And if we play 4 at the back, gimme Lucas at DM all day long! possibly with both Hendo and Can ahead of them, perhaps with Coutinho/Sterling/Gerrard/Lallana at the tip of the diamond - which is a tasty prospect imo.

We have good options if BR would use them properly.

By all means, it is possible that Can could become a good DM, but there is currently nothing to support the notion at all. Also even if he did play fantastically - how on earth would that make Lucas mediocre, as you earlier claimed?!

As ed001 pointed out to you earlier, "Lucas always looks to pass forward first" - that you can't even recognise that basics speaks volumes.

Some people don't seem to notice what is right in front of their eyes! That's my last post on this - as I fear that perhaps there may be no getting through to you.

Take care.

:)

Can't believe I read all that. Long it may be, but sometimes the short answer leaves much unsaid. Can't agree more. Lucas reads the play better than any of our other mids. He may not be the quickest or strongest, but as a defensive mid myself and now into my 40's, I can testify that know how can compensate a fair bit.

Zinedine, I think you will find if you do some research, that you are wrong, Emre can has played half his games for Leverkusen as a DM, as well as filing other positions. I am sure one of the ED's, on numerous occasions on this site, stated/ mentioned in their responses that Emre Can was brought in as Lucas's replacement.

I'm not sure how you can say all that about Can a player who abrely any one has seen in the DM role. since he's been thrown into right of 3 defenders. He's played the deep role, maybe 4 times for Liverpool, teach time however I was impressed, Chelsea, Real Madrid, Hull(I never saw the QPRgame) For me your basing the whole argument on what you've seen of Lucas in tat role, over previous years, and this year, vs bottom half teams since he's come back. against a player shoved into the defensive role who's handling it well. Wait until Can atleast plays half a season there to judge him.

Hi Brisbane.

I mean playing well, not just being played.

I also feel that just because Leverkusen's manager played Can out of position at DM (and lost his job as a result of resulting poor form) hardly supports the argument.

Further, as you yourself make clear - the management at Leverkusen struggled to find Can's best position - utilizing him in a number of positions. Hardly evidence of his suitability vs. a career of evidence (and this seasons efforts) in the case of Lucas.

I recall the saying that "if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it's a f***ing duck".

I guess people can call him a DM player all they want, but until he proves himself there, it's all just talk and baseless speculation.

The lad has great potential - and I wish him well. I hope he excels somewhere for us - and if that's at DM so be it. I just feel that it isn't his strongest suit and his future is in a more dynamic and attack-minded role.

Finally, whichever Ed said Can was bought to replace Lucas clearly has no basis to make such a claim.

Certainly no-one at the club said anything of the sort - and Lucas was not even a starter early on it the season yet Can was never tried in his role at the time.

And now, Lucas is back in the side - at the expense of Gerrard - and Allen was favoured even before that. A strange way to treat a 'replacement', to say the least.

They're not even similar types of player.

I'd suggest maybe it was a young ed or someone who doesn't watch Liverpool to make such a claim. Doesn't sound like ed001 anyway - his views on Can's best position seem similar to my own from what I've read.

Anyway. I've had it to the eyeballs talking about Lucas and Can. I'd like them both in the same midfield in future. I hope that would suit us all.
I reckon they'd be great together.

:)

Kilbane what a load of drivel, i have read many of your posts with your man love for lucas, if you google Emre Can you will see he is a midfielder who is versatile it also states that he can play as a Def - Mid, CB and a left back, so where you don't give him credit for the role he is playing now then its you wh o does not have a clue about a footballer, for a young man who is being played out of position and doing well there should show you he has some thing about him, if you don't agree with that then you can keep your love for lucas, and as other have said Can was bought to replace you beloved lucas who never makes mistakes and stops all the goals we concede, but back onto Can he was bought because he can play in other position, some thing lucas can't do, so the fact that Can does play in different position shows he is a better football, and just for you i'm too old to play fifa or any other game i'm 50 years of age so i think i do know what it take to jusdge a player, the fact that you don't give the young man any credit at all shows your arrogance that you think you are right and everyone else is wrong and that if other fans don't agree with you then they don't know football that is an arrogant person for you, i will tell you again just incase it went over your head, lucas is not that good, and i'm my opinion Emre can will be a better def-mid than lucas, he is younger than lucas and knows howto play in different positions, to do that you must have a good footballing brain, tell me why lucas runs to the player with the ball then stops without putting a tackle in even though the player with the ball already has players closing down, i can't see why he does that he just runs to a player then stops about a yard or 2 and then does nothing, but because he has done this he has left space behind him, again just for you kilbane, i will count all his mistakes in our next game and the time he does them so you can see them for yourself and you can do the same about all the good things he does and the time he does them, i bet you any money that he does more mistakes than good things,, the best bit in your post was the one where you even call the eds wrong for even suggesting that Emre Can was bought to replace lucas and that they had no basis, well the basis is the fact that he can play in a def-mid role, you must have been out when you missed the report in the papers that we bought him to replace lucas,

just to let you know i missed your other reply to me this is the 1st one I've seen i will read the other with an open mind and a smile, i pity you though because you think that lucas really does all what you have said he does, you must miss his mistakes or turn a blind eye to them, it was because of lucas that skertal had to stop a player breaking on us by dragging him down and getting a yellow card, it was lucas who made the mistake of giving the ball away and could not catch the player so skertal had to take one for the team, in my opinion i don't see lucas the same way you do, its my right to have this opinion and i don't have to agree with you, in my opinion there is a lot better def - mids out there and that lucas makes more mistakes than some people on here seem to miss, again he gives a lot of free kicks away around our area and they have led to goals, this is a fact, and if he was as good as you say he is we would not concede as many goals because lucas ( the wall ) would stop the attacks in its track, the fact he does not means your wrong, so i'm afraid we have to agree to disagree

Hi mbrock99.

I hope you have since read my other lengthy posts on the subject we have been discussing. I reckon that you may have been a little less angry-sounding if you had. No worries btw!

If you look at my responses you'll notice that I actually praised you for being humble and open-minded even before you wrote your 'load of drivel' response.

I have seen that you had so many disagrees against you that you complained to the eds. Perhaps that is what has angered you?? I have no grudge. Just a contrasting viewpoint which I have made great effort to express at length.

In fairness, I provided a truckload of evidence to support my views - contradicting everything you have/had said.

I provided video evidence, opta stats, lengthy tactical observations. I wonder did you watch the video of Lucas and apply your good v. bad theory to it?

I feel it is not that surprising that people may have agreed with me on the points I clearly presented.

The sequence of debates spoke for themselves imo.

I hope you have read my other posts by now and realise that I have respect for your view - but I will still clearly point out where I feel you are wrong - and 'googling' a player is no indicator of a players best position either.

I feel I have made my point well enough by now tbh! Try not to take things so personally though. No-one is out to get you.

Take care!
:)

12 Jan 2015 23:08:03
out of all the recent doom & gloom / disappointment around Liverpool, there is now definitely a light at the end of tunnel. It actually looks like some of the new young players could actually becoming massive Liverpool players in the future. Markovic and Can in particular - then throw in Sterling, Couthino, Llalana, Sturridge, Flanno and Sakho - we can now see a new era coming in. Still need a keeper whatever the case and then another Striker. YNWA

It's funny, the only player that I had no real interest in when we signed him was Can, and he's slowly becoming my favourite player, so perhaps I'll just stop being interested in who we sign in future!

Remember Henderson's only 24 as well!