Liverpool Banter Archive December 17 2014

17 Dec 2014 23:33:38
Great Game. Markovic and Sakho to start on the weekend please. With the right coaching Markovic could be big!

Although our defence is still terrible.

Agreed. I think he's going to be special. To me he looks like a confidence player who just needs an arm around. What this space eh?

17 Dec 2014 23:20:08
A much better performance tonight. That's more like it!

It's nice to see Sakho back too!

17 Dec 2014 22:56:24
Eds fellow reds .some great penalties in the worcester game, lost though 14-13 think they've been watching the pool .

18 Dec 2014 13:09:41
was at the game last night as one of the 90 travelling scunthorpe fans, cracking shoot out

17 Dec 2014 22:54:14
It makes me laugh when I read on here posters saying we should get rid of Mignolet, Borini, Lucas, Allen Johnson Skirtle and Lovren because they are not good enough. Not to mention Baloteli. So if they are that bad who in the hell do you think would buy them? Or do they think we are going to sell them at a massive loss just to buy replacements for them. You need to wake up and realise we are stuck with most of them, so we need to get them to improve and adapt to Rodgers way of playing

17 Dec 2014 23:54:57
i think 3 of them are already wanted , borini , lucas and balo

18 Dec 2014 00:14:55
People want rid of Lucas? Is it 2009 again?

I think it's more a case that Lucas has made his mind up to try to go more than people wanting him to leave.

18 Dec 2014 00:56:48
That's the point exactly. We paid top dollar when no one else would

People who are eager to see Lucas are just clueless. He has been the team's best midfielder even with limited game time and actually offers protection to the defense where Gerrard and Allen have failed miserably. And interest would be plentiful in Lucas from Italy if we were to sell him. Borini would also generate a decent amount of cash.

Where's he going? News to me. He looks like a regular who is doing quite well sat in the middle

{Ed002's Note - There is interest in Lucas from both Napoli and Inter - and both would like to take him on loan in January. However, the player has made it clear that he does not wish to move to Naples but would like to move to Milan. The interest of Gremio will likely be rejected by the player.}

18 Dec 2014 08:43:58
To me it's a case of (Mingolet aside who we need to replacing and Lucas aside because I think he is good enough) them not being enough better than our similar younger players to continue to block their potential. Is Allen THAT much better than Rossiter to justify Rossiter not getting chances? No. Can Rossiter be far better than Allen? Yes. Is Johnson that much better than Wisdom? I'd argue he's already worse, and Wisdom has a long way to go still. Not going to do it for every player but you get the point

17 Dec 2014 21:51:29
Good win but a pig of a draw for the semis.

Have to admit heart sank when chelsea came out the pot, but realistically our best chance of winning the cup is to play chelsea over 2 legs rather than in a final.

18 Dec 2014 00:00:44
Very good point forza!

For me, chelsea are obviously strong but haven't looked invincible of late. You can get at them as Newcastle proved. A few years ago - Terry was finished - Cahill was shaky, mourhinho was forced out because he wasn't attacking enough if I remember right. After that confidence will go and city will take the league.

17 Dec 2014 21:45:04
Rodgers has now backed himself into corner with Jones/Mingolet after saying the change was for an indefinite period, I think tonight shows Jones is not actually a better keeper than Mingolet, Rodgers surely knows this so will he be stubborn (probably) or be a man put Mingolet back in and tell him to sort his head out. I really would not like to see Jones in goal v Arsenal.

17 Dec 2014 22:18:23
I hope things are being done NOW to bring a goal keeper in the January window. We should be throwing money at Chelsea for Cech,,, get shut of Migs to fund it.

A tense end to the game tonight. If that ball had not hit the post and gone in instead it would have been squeaky bottom time.
I have been watching the last few weeks in amazement.
In goal we had a decent keeper in Pepe Reina in the summer who wanted to play for the club, instead we are now in real trouble with no keeper who looks confident. Mignolet was a poor signing. We then signed Lovren to shore up the back, he has been a complete liability all season, he wasn't that amazing for Saints. Before the Basle game we kept 3 clean sheets with Toure and Skrtel, BR then brings back Lovren and we start conceding again. BR has treated Lucas like s**t. He drops him, then brings him back. Lucas is our most solid midfielder and keeps being dropped to allow Allen in the side. Allen is not good enough for this club, and never has been. He's like a scare cat in the headlights every time he gets the ball. Finally, the front line. The last 2 games sum up everything. BR has no confidence in any of the strikers he has brought in, so now plays Sterling up front.
I have no idea what is going on, but those blooming Mancs must be rolling around in laughter at us, this is embarrassing

17 Dec 2014 21:38:14
Glen Johnson had a cracking game up front tonight.

Isn't it a shame that them genuine paying travelling fans sing our managers name?

Means nothing I suppose.

I don't understand? What's wrong with singing our managers name? It probably means that they are better fans than you?

I taught we decided to sign Remy up top lol

17 Dec 2014 21:25:33
If teams in the lower division can make out defence look like the back line of dads army then God help us in the Premiership,

We won

17 Dec 2014 20:23:55
This is bloody weird.

3 centre backs. No wing backs. Hendo and Markovic as wingers. Gerrard and Lucas holding. Sterling, Coutinho and Lallana all hovering around in what looks like a trio of false 9's / free roles.

I deliberately didn't say anything about it before the game because it looked so different and I didn't want to comment and look silly.

It's really really weird but it seems to be working! We seem to be pressing quite well also. Fair enough. Looks like Rodgers has got it right tonight even if it is only Bournemouth. Still conceding some silly chances but Bournemouth aren't taking them as of yet.

17 Dec 2014 20:59:34
You could take back your cards mate. I see the season revival here. BR would save his job.
52 successful pass before the first goal, that would be a league record.

17 Dec 2014 21:04:05
If we play like this against arsenal we will concede many

Harry. It's Bournemouth. I knew people would cone on here and start saying things like "I told you to have faith in Rodgers", "I always had faith in Henderson, Sterling and Skrtel" etc.

Can we just put this into perspective. It is a Championship team and we are riding our luck. It is better than I expected, but still poor overall.

17 Dec 2014 21:11:34
Essex

If we play like this we would score at least 3 against Arsenal.
Their back 4 is poor and has the poorest full backs in the league.
We had 10 attempts in the first 25 mts.

Played really well. Get behind Brendan

Well said EMS. i'm glad someone else is putting the performance in perspective

The carefully chosen one is back! Here's to next season!

17 Dec 2014 21:33:55
Adam

Ofcourse they don't have world class players much like QPR, Basel, ludo and Sunderland whom we all lost to.
But they do have a +44 good in the championship less than half way of the season.

BR is guilty of many things at the club, but if your player doesn't perform no manager could survive with a club.

Extend brendans contract please

If we played like this against Arsenal we'd also have conceded about 6, Passion. Passing and such was much, much better, but a Bournemouth side with 6 changes still pretty much walked their way through our defense.

"It is a Championship team and we are riding our luck"

Reeks of arrogance and disrespect that.

Firstly, it's a cup game,

Secondly, they are at home,

Thirdly, they are a very good side and are cruising in their respective league.

That enough?

You see any results last night?

17 Dec 2014 22:09:14
RDL
And that what happens when your DM is poor. They pass through your midfield to reach the back 4

How many time have we seen this last season?
We score goals and get dominated by the opposition?

Guilty of not buying a monster of DM or not playing Can ahead of Gerrard.

EMS some very disrespectful comments made about Bournemouth
The way I see it is yes werea league above them bit there high flying and full of confidence we get knocked out of the CL and loose 3-0 to United confidence on the floor I think we done very well

It's not arrogance Davey it's just perspective. Peoplevare coming on here banging on about how good we played but it's a cup game as you say. Even if you ignore tge fact it was against a Championship club, form goes out the window in these games. As Sheffield Utd proved last night and Tottenham proved tonight.

It was a lucky win that flattered us but I'll take it. I'm not disrespecting Bournemouth by saying they are a Championship team. That is a fact and we should be disposing of them easily. There is nothing wrong with struggling a bit as anything can happen in cup games. But coming in here spouting nonsense about how well we played and how it's 'the turning point in our season' is just premature and naive.

Great to get through, but let's not blow it out of proportion. We scraped past Bournemouth. It's as simple as that.

Adam I agree we can't go overboard about tonight but how was it a lucky win?

17 Dec 2014 22:56:18
Harry. Remind me, when did we lose to QPR, Ludogorets and Sunderland?

This is a game we should've won easily and did. Arsenal will be a different game altogether, but we have a slightly higher chance of winning now, having managed to put the ball in the net. I see another draw though.

After Chelsea's excellent 1-3 win away at Derby, I reckon they must be favourites for the Champions league!

It's not about me being disrespectful to Bournemouth. It's just that I'm refusing to get carried away about beating a team we should be beating. That is not a disrespectful thing to say. We are in a stronger league, with a stronger squad, far more international players who've played at the highest level, with far more financial muscle.

If you can't see that see tgat we should be winning these games then I don't know what your thinking to be honest.

There is nothing wrong with celebrating a win but it just makes us look foolish coming on here bigging the team up for beating Bournemouth. I'm not asking you to say Bournemouth are a bad team. They are an excellent Championship side who look very likely to get promoted. I hope they do as they play great football. But for the love of god, don't embarass the rest of us by singing from the hills about tonights result.

Alan our second goal was a complete fluke because some muppet in the crowd blew a whistle. Bournemouth squandered at least 4 golden opportunities. A better side would've buried at least 2 or 3 of them.

You sometimes need a bit of luck in the cups and I'm not trying to say we shouldn't celebrate tonights win. But we shouldn't be saying silly things about how this will change our season or that the team played brilliantly because it is not guaranteed to kick start anything and we didn't play particularly. Our Premier League quality is what edged it in the end.

Adam, I disagree we were lucky.

Also you repeat numerous times in various terms how we were playing a lower level team that we should beat,, then you go on to say if we were playing a better team they would have scored some of the chances, but as you say we weren't playing a better team, you can't have it both ways mate.
There's the old saying you can only beat who is put in front of you, we did. Once again I'm not getting carried away but let's at least be happy we didn't go out of the cup hey.

I'm dead pleased Alan. I still jumped out mmy seat when the goals went in like any other fan. I agree you can only beat what is in front of yiu and we did that. My gripe is not with the team. It is with fans trying to be condescending towards others who have been calling for Rodgers head and are saying things like "take back your cards" as if we were all wrong to ever doubt him because he won a cup game against lower league opposition. This has not saced our season and it will not save Rodgers job.

It was nice to win. I enjoyed the game. That is all. I'm not going to go into work tomorrow bragging about it.

Alan won.

{Ed001's Note - surely people are getting a bit carried away about an ok performance against what pretty much amounted to a Bournemouth reserve side? They may be flying high, but they have no strength in depth, as was displayed last night when 6 players were changed and they looked a weak side. I think it is getting a bit carried away to suggest it was worth getting excited about.}

I'm glad you agree with me Ed. And cheers for deleting the threads people were trolling on.

I'm chuffed we're into the semi finals but I'm not going to exaggerate the performance.

{Ed002's Note - No problem.}

18 Dec 2014 09:28:31
How is calling Bournemouth a Championship side 'disrespectful'?! What league do they play in?

EMS is correct, if you think beating Bournemouth is something to write home about you officially lowered the bar. Obviously it's ok to enjoy the win but don't jump on EMS for having perspective.

Cheers Rosie.

Just for clarity I was not one of the ones going overboard with the win (i did say that in my original and subsequent posts) but i don't think we
were lucky either.
We won so let's just take it for what it is and not detract from that we are in a semi final, if, and ok its a big if we go on to win it very few will remember who we played in the quarters.
Peace out redmen.

17 Dec 2014 17:15:04
Hi ed's and reds
Not liverpool related but a general question about grass roots football and local academies, do you think academies are ruining grass roots football? My 10 year old lad plays for a north Wales Welsh premier league academy. We have been informed that when they reach 11 aside they have to pick whether to play for the local team or academy, they can no longer do both. (1 player 1 club). I do know of a local team that have folded because of this rule where they had over half of their players pick the academy over the local team. Do you know of any other academies that apply this rule?
Thanks

{Ed001's Note - yes I do think academies are ruining it, if done right they should work with it, but they don't want to work with grass roots football as they see it as a rival.}

I would have to say that I think it's important that the amount of football youngsters play is monitored closely.
If a good player is playing regularly in a local team where they do not get challenged, what is the point to:
a) them
b) team-mates
c) opposition
All that happens is they dominate play and they are not improved by it, and potentially stunt the development of other players.
I have boys who play for me and look good and perform well, put them in the school side where they can dominate and everything we do with them goes out the window as they can dribble past 4 players and score as it is too easy
We need to develop and maintain the right mind-set and skills in young players who have the potential to become elite.
When I was in North wales my younger brother played 2 seasons in the same side as Michael Owen, who was at LFC and at Lilleshall.
1 ball over the top, use pace and Mikey scores.
any good for him or other players? no.
Potential to develop injuries and weaknesses as a result of over use? maybe.
school team and academy should be the limit

It's frustrating as it is the grass roots coaches that get them to the standard where they are talented enough to be spotted and chosen to play for the academy.

17 Dec 2014 20:59:05
Whilst I was with Cardiff academy they would play their games on a Sunday, so wouldn't allow them to play for a local side, for obvious reasons. They did allow them to play for their schools and when this occurred they then managed them carefully in terms of rest and recuperation.
Depending on the talent and ambition of your child, then one would one want to keep him playing with the academy if it offers better coaching and progression. Ultimately the academies that do offer a high level of coaching and usually opposition will want them playing purely for only them, as players progressing through the academies is a reflection on them.

I don't think they see it as rivalry but if academies who offer paid coaches and a very high standard of facilities to use it is for me, understandable that they wouldn't want the players turning out for other sides.

Re-reading I may have picked up on the wrong thing with the academy talk; sounds more like an academy that is more of an affiliation e.g. There is more than one team per age group? If so, that's a shame for grass root clubs and can be detrimental to them. Although, again it comes down to standard of competition, coaching, facilities etc.

Grass roots does need more love from The FA and FAW to help ensure clubs aren't folding, but if other clubs or organisations can offer more it is going to be tough.

I'm not sure I 100% nailed the issue you may have come across, that's just some of my insight and thoughts on the academy and grass roots issue.

I do think that they will improve more playing with the academy as they are playing equally good opposition each week with no weak link in the team. I think that it's unfair for the academy to make them choose.

17 Dec 2014 21:55:39
I was academy type set up a couple of years back. It allowed us to play with iur grassroot clubs. The academy setup in ireland isn't very well run. There are district academies who at u14 level play a competition called the kennedy cup. Most top english clubs send scouts, so that is your one big chance to get spotted. The problem is the managers only want to get as far as possible so the smaller more skillful player's don't get a chance over the more physically developed players. So I think a lot of talent in Ireland could go to waste. Not really sure where i'm going with this but there you go.

17 Dec 2014 19:17:42
Just wandering what has Emre Can have to do to get a game of football these days, and what's the injury that's keeping Flanagan out?

Can deserves a lot more minutes than he's getting.

17 Dec 2014 19:37:10
Emre can is not picked ahead of Lucas/Gerrard in the middle.

17 Dec 2014 19:55:26
Flanno had knee surgery mate.

BR plays his nephew Allen who IMO, is not better than Can.

17 Dec 2014 18:51:14
Read something interesting, since his display against chelsea which was by far his best for us, he scored in and where he was one of our best players on the day. Emre Can has played 17 minutes of football. Baffled why he isn't played or why moreno isn't starting

Posted about this last week- not just the Chelsea game just a few days before he'd been one of our best players at the Bernabeu.

I stayed in Rodgers camp longer than most on this site, but his continued selection of Skrtel, refusal to play Can since the Chelsea game (which I was at) and inconsistency in picking Lallana and constant subbing of him when he does start (although I accept that this may be due to his broken ribs) have just lost me.

I can't bear to say Rodgers Out after thinking him a demi-god just 7 or 8 months ago, but I wouldn't complain at all if he got the boot and a new man came in who'd see that all that needs to change

17 Dec 2014 19:24:24
Can is not preferred ahead of Gerrard and Lucas. You could only field 11 at a time.

Gerrard does not deserve his place in the team. Can however does.

17 Dec 2014 18:23:20
I see Benitez has said he was offered 2 jobs in last 2 weeks in Mercato turned them both down

17 Dec 2014 17:15:04
Hi ed's and reds
Not liverpool related but a general question about grass roots football and local academies, do you think academies are ruining grass roots football? My 10 year old lad plays for a north Wales Welsh premier league academy. We have been informed that when they reach 11 aside they have to pick whether to play for the local team or academy, they can no longer do both. (1 player 1 club). I do know of a local team that have folded because of this rule where they had over half of their players pick the academy over the local team. Do you know of any other academies that apply this rule?
Thanks

Ashy - i think that's standard practice and this issue may come down to geographical reasons as in players per catchment areas. I used to lose a handful of players each season to academies and to be fair they should offer a better platfom after all that's their role/job. It was not easy to rebuild but because of population locally it may heve been easier to maintain the team/club.

17 Dec 2014 19:03:55
It is difficult but if the club is registered as pro or semi pro in the main their "academy" will be rated higher than grass roots in the old days it was categories a b c and a academy players were not allowed to play against b or c. If the academy club is not that pro status then they are cherry picking and punting unfair pressure on the player and the parents but on the flip side coaching may be a better standard so you will have to make your own decision there.

It is a real bone of contention to me we see so many players taken at a young age released by 16 and disiilusionex. One pro club I know will take a player and 2 or three of his mates til they have the one they want hooked then release the mates. Great practise! In my opinion an old friend of mine proposed a great idea if a club takes a player who then goes on to make it from a grass roots club then that club should receive 0.25% of the first transfer fee they receive for him. Simplistic view but would help fund grass roots clubs and encourage them to focus on good coaching and producing players who are at a good level. Far better than some hair brain schemes that are proposed.

I know football is a business but surely a benefit would be seen by all. They have solidarity payments to pro clubs why not extend it or rehash the scheme as most grass roots are totally volunteer based scratching around d for funds to survive.

Anyhow apologies for the rant but unless there is regulatory reason as outlined basically above then ultimately its up to you.

17 Dec 2014 16:28:18
More of a general football question I suppose, but do you think all keepers should wear a soft helmet? I mean when you think about it, people who are more likely to clash heads, least likely to use their head to control the ball and most likely to stick their heads into dangerous places should have some protection shouldn't they? Is there any reason it's not become the norm?

17 Dec 2014 17:03:34
They should wear a padded bra too. Can never be too careful

17 Dec 2014 18:00:57
DBol, only really relevant for Fatty Fulks and Neville Southall.

17 Dec 2014 16:23:27
Hey Eds, been following the site for a good while now, just wanted to let you know your doing great work, keep it up :)

As for liverpool, yes it hasn't been our year at all so far but we have to kept faith in the team and Rogers. I know a lot of people want him gone and are sick of his interviews etc. He is trying to keep players confidence as high as possible. It would be worst to see him slate players in interviews. He is not stupid.

Look we lost suarez and sturridge is injuried all season but they were our best players that were lethal in the box and their confidence gave players around them confidence. Rogers built his team around them last year and that's why we done so well in the league. I know for a fact if sturridge was fit and scoring, we wouldn't be in this position in the league and getting knocked out of CL.

When it comes down to it, you have to look at the players that are not performing, its our key players that are not performing. I love henderson and coutinho but they can't string a pass for their life at the moment they have to be performing better. Gerard has to be used like Frank Lampard, that is the only way he can do a job for us. We all know he is not a DM, Sterling has been our best player but he is not scoring but that will come. He is only 20 and is taking all the pressure on to perform for the team.

Some of the players we have signed are not working out at the moment but I don't think that's rogers fault. Its all come down to the transfer committe that scout and buy these players. Liverpool won't pay the big wages for players anymore that's why we have signed the players we have. There a cheap wage. I bet rogers wanted other players but couldn't go for them because they wanted a big wage package.

I like Rogers and i hope he doesn't get sacked. We should give him more time to work out the problems we have at the moment. The fact people want managers back that we more than less SACKED is stupid. A few bad months of football and we want rogers sacked is just stupid. Everyone loved him last year. Some fans on this have no common sense at all.

The only thing ill say about Rogers is, that he needs to work on his defending tactics. I have never seen liverpool so bad defending in my life so Rogers needs help with this and i don't think the coaches he has with him are capable of that. Other thing he needs to start is giving some players a good run at getting onto to the team. he did it for flangan and he was great in the second half off the season. He needs to give players like Can, Suso(if fit) sakho, markovic, Borini and a few other squad players a good run at getting onto the team.

Rogers is young and needs to work on a few things like every other manager but he loves liverpool, the fans, the city and the history.

Keep the faith people. It will happen for us :)

17 Dec 2014 13:47:52
I have a question for the Ed's. Why haven't any of the so called media mouthpieces pundits/radio/print media/tv etc disclosed to the public what we know about the consultation that Liverpool are currently conducting? I would have thought most pundit's/media corporations would be privy to this information and someone would have leaked it by now? It just seems peculiar to me that something so profound could stay so muted.

{Ed002's Note - The press are aware of matter and certainly I am certain that they have reported the first major changes that have happened. Perhaps you are looking in the wrong place?}

Thanks eds 002. I appreciate your response. I'm a bit concerned with the lack of speed of this consultation because if results continue to be poor and FSG aren't thinking of making a managerial change in January like you suggested in your last reply we really could be looking at footballing adversity.

{Ed002's Note - The owners will not be wanting to make any knee jerk changes.}

The owners have made some terrible decisions in regard to management Commoli, king Kenny, Rodgers etc.
they can't afford to keep doing this and are trying to take the time to bring in the right people.

That's my biggest concern, Mikey. If they go with the DoF strategy, which seems likely, and they get it horribly wrong by appointing a poor choice it will take years to recover and unfortunately their track record of managerial/administrative appointments is at about our current transfer committees level of competence.

They simply can't afford to get this one wrong and if it means us limping along and finishing 9th or something with BR, that's a small price to pay rather than jumping into a poorly thought out new administration at the club.

17 Dec 2014 11:51:05
Robbie Savage on BBC's web site : Liverpool should get rid of Balotelli and stick with Rodgers. Because he 'deserves' it ?

Obviously Savage is watching a different team ?

He says that he is a 'fan' of Rodgers.

On the other hand he might want Liverpool's poor form to continue?

I wonder who he supports ?

Is ballotelli picking the team now then? Lol
I wonder what else we can blame ballo for.

His hairstylist

17 Dec 2014 13:03:30
I had a disciplinary at work in 2012. Clearly Balotelli's fault

English people only know how to blame 4 things:

1. Bloody weather
2. Bloody credit crunch
3. Bloody foreigners
4. Balotelli

So are you trying to say your disciplinary was somehow Rodgers fault? Rodgers is doing the best he can. Look at Ronald Koeman, most of you were raving about him. Other examples include Big Sam and Padrew. We can't just keep sacking managers everytime we have a bad period. You guys are acting like Rodgers played no part last season taking a midtable team to 2nd place.

Jason Cundy said the same thing and frankly if both of them want him to stay, then I definitely want him gone!

17 Dec 2014 15:02:26
Ambidextrous - it was a joke fella. Clearly what I do at work is neither of their faults.

17 Dec 2014 15:44:17
I think BR and the press blamed him for the loss when he was out injured.

Your post of the year that EMS. Haha

I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous ! (I'll get my goat)

17 Dec 2014 17:02:36
Savage supports Liverpool and Wrexham I believe

Savage is a manc, that's on very good authority. So he has a vested interest in us doing badly, so of course he wants Rodgers to stay.

17 Dec 2014 10:59:07
I'm just worried Rodgers will try to 'out think' Eddie Howe

Made me laugh

17 Dec 2014 17:36:59
Based on recent form, I would be surprised to see Rodgers 'out think' Eddie Large

17 Dec 2014 08:20:55
Regarding the poll of the day:

I believe that penalties should count towards a players total. However not if the rules stay as they are.

For example, Jesus Navas beats 4 players to get into a one on one sitauation. Then he is brought down and Aguero steps up to claim a goal he doesn't deserve. In my opinion, either the rules stay the same and anybody can take the penalty BUT then they don't count towards your total. Or the rules change to stipulate that only the player who won the penalty is allowed to take it and they then do count towards your total.

I just find it so ridiculous that a centre back can be pushed at a corner and that then justifies a striker getting a free shot at goal from 12 yards out. Its even more unfair that players like Costa will be beaten to the golden boot by Aguero purely because he takes penalties other players are winning for him most of the time.

Free kicks I don't mind because it takes a great deal of skill to score through a crowd of up to 20 players from outside the box and it gives the opposition the opportunity to defend the situation. Penalties are cheap goals for whoever is the designated penalty taker though that distort goal scoring records.

I know it's a controversial opinion and one that will never go anywhere, but I just think it's unfair on players like Costa and Sturridge that they have to score twice as many open play goals to win a golden boot purely because Hazard and Gerrard take all the penalties in their team that Aguero gets to take in his team. It devalues the golden boot award because certain players have unfair advantages. I'd also love to see how many people would still rate Messi and Ronaldo as a better player than Suarez who can score over 20/30 league goals without relying on penalties.

Related to the Poll of the Day:

1. If somebody wins the penalty, which is converted, does the guy who wins the penalty get the assist? What if the same guy wins and scores the penalty? We know he doesn't get both the goal and the assist.

2. When there is an own-goal, the dubious goals panel decide if it is an own-goal or if it should be awarded to the guy who takes the shot. If an own-goal is awarded, does the guy who take the shot get the assist?

It won't always be possible for the player on whom the offence is made can take the penalty if he gets injured therefore the only solution is to have goals scored by penalty stated as such and not added on as part of a tally.
The rest of your post is spot on as usual EMS

I can see what you are saying Adam but the pen taker has still got to put it away and 99% of the time a pen is more of a pressure situation than scoring a goal in normal play so that has to be taken into account, it takes a certain type of player for that type of pressure not to affect him. Also what about if Navas beats 4 players and pulls the ball back to the 6 yard box past a stranded keeper on the near post and Aguero has a tap in from 6 yards with no goalie in place, should that be struck from the record books?
Another point to consider is would for example Joe Allen or Martin Skrtel score as many pens as say Ricky Lambert or Steven Gerrardd, again the taker still has to put them away.

17 Dec 2014 10:17:07
kinda see your point but disagree about penalties being 'cheap goals'. There is obvious a skill to it that a lot of players don't have tbh - as much as i rate sturridge as a striker the last two times i've seen him take penalties he hasn't converted (put one over the bar that would have given him a hat-trick, so an 'easy' penalty as we were 2 or 3 goals up).

look at balotelli - can debate his ability but his penalty conversion % is amazing (see his two this season and his one in the euro champions against england were near perfect). Agree some penalties are 'easier' goals like when you are winning 3-0, but converting big penalties under pressure is a massively valuable skill that a lot of players lack. Is no coincidence England always lose shoot outs, simply because the italians, germans, etc are more technically gifted and confident in taking them.

Agree with the ronaldo/messi statistics though - Ronaldo must have had at least 6 or 7 penalties this season as the seem to get them when requested in la liga.

only thing i've found harsh is that apparently you don't get an assist for drawing penalties, which is frankly ludicrous as you clearly create the chance for it to be converted. Saying that if you were given an assist and take the penalty you could get an assist for a goal you score. which i'm sure is a paradox of some sort.

Thing is, penalties are not guaranteed goals. Sure they have a higher then normal chance, but not certain.
You would want your specialist in goal scoring to take them or the best/successful from training to give you the best chance of scoring.

If Skrtel won a penalty but Sturridge, our striker paid to score goals, took it that's fine in my book and as it's still a skill to convert against the caliber of Cech, De Gea, Hart etc it should count surely.

17 Dec 2014 10:30:39
sorry but forgot to add one last point - are penalties easier than being put through 1 one 1 with the keeper? Hard to say and more dependent on the player.

for example if sturridge was put through 1 on 1 I would have 100% confidence in him finishing it, same with luis saurez but I wouldn't feel the same about them taking penalties (not sure if 100% right but saurez took 4 penalties at lfc and missed 2 and missed 12% of his penalties at ajax- which is a fair amount). But then you have players who 1 on 1 you wouldn't be 100% confident of them finishing it (balotelli for example or possibly lambert) but have incredible conversion rates (100% for lambert in competitive matches and i think it's around 97% for balotelli as has missed 1 in i think 30 in his career).

So bit harsh to say it isn't a skill to convert penalties as a lot of players seem to struggle with it - even some top forwards.

17 Dec 2014 10:39:05
That would be a great improvement, if you are fouled,you take the pen

17 Dec 2014 10:41:37
Must disagree. Bottom line is it's who actually scores - not who puts the work in.

17 Dec 2014 11:12:59
Penalties are just as hard mate.
The reason Suarez never took penalties is because when he did he missed, same with Sturridge etc,
It takes balls, skill and composure, and if one player has the ability to bury 9/10 penalties and another can only manage 5/10 then that's an aspect of his goal scoring that's better,

17 Dec 2014 11:37:46
Personally I think the player who wins the penalty should have to take it, unless the player is knocked out or something, in which case the player should come off and their replacement take it

Just to clarify I doht think anyone is trying to suggest that penalties shouldn't "count" obviously they do however I believe they should be highlighted as penalties scored as they are not a reflection of how good a striker the player is.
Nobody would suggest that Phil Neal should have played up front because he scored regularly would they?

{Ed001's Note - Alan Shearer is regularly ribbed about how penalties inflate his goalscoring stats falsely by others within the game who didn't take penalties. Personally I don't think they should count normally either, but as a separate tally, as, like Chris just pointed out, they are not really the mark of a goalscorer as such.}

Cheers fpr the replies lads. It's always nice to have an explanation to go with the disagrees. Chris in Tamworth, I was going to answer your point, but Super said exactly what I was going to say. The substitute takes it, or if there are no subs available then the penalty is free to anyone who wishes to take it.

I admit there are grey areas that need refining though. For example, Downing whips in a cross that is hand balled to take it off of Carrolls head; who was impeded? Downing or Carroll? It would be left a lot down to the referee and his interpretation. What I will say to AG, is that the official Premier league stats do not record winning a converted penalty/free kick as an assist. However other sites such as Transfermarkt do record them.

That is why the Premier league will tell you Suarez got 13 assists last season whilst Transfermarkt will tell you he got 22 assists.

I particularly liked your reply Rolandinho. A very well constructed counter argument that kept it 100% as a civil debate and actually got me thinking.

Wasn't enough to sway my views but I can certainly understand the other side of the argument now.

That's exactly my Point Chris/Ed001. They can cause distortion in the golden boot race. I definitely think they should be recorded regardless, but as Ed001 says separately.

My idea that only the penalty winner can take it is more idealistic than realistic.

How gutted would Suarez have been last season when he scored 31 open play goals if Raonaldo had beaten him with 32 of which 10 were penalties? It'd make a mockery of the award in my opinion. Perhaps have a silver boot for the player who converts the most penatlies in a single season? That way we can still recognise a player is exceptionally composed from the spot, but also not let it inflate his record as a goalscorer?

I totally agree with the notion that whoever gets fouled takes the pen.

And people say football is a simple game.

I personally think you have all thought about this too much.
I don't think it matters one bit if it counts towards any goal tally.
The only think that matters is the actual goal and the outcome of the game, in reality it doesn't matter who scores it.
You don't get any extra points in the league for having the top goal scorer.
Sorry to shoot you all down there. Lol

Not any more Alan mate ;) When i get Sepp Blatters job I'm removing this ridiculous coin flip to decide who kicks off and replacing it with a game of chess. Much fairer in my opinion.

Also, I'm going to ban shin pads and ankle protectors (as well as enforce steel toe capped botts) to stop players from trying to draw fouls.

My final chagne of the rules will be a third card. Yellow as a warning. Red to send off. Two yellows equal a red. And the third colour, blue. A blue card will stipulate that the following player is no longer protected by the rules of the game so whoever he fouled can take their revenge without risking a booking.

Just you wait! Muha

17 Dec 2014 12:54:11
Cheers, nice to get different views and do see your point. Personally think Saurez' record last season was unbelievable and be some player to top that.

But the idea of the fouled player taking the penalty just wouldn't work. Great in theory but we all know what would happen. If it was a big penalty (90th minute to win a game) given to a player who isn't good at them he will just feign injury till he is either subbed off or taken off the pitch. Then after it is converted you would see him jumping around and celebrating.

Also not sure it would be that fair really as it punishes the fouled team - if you did that would the player who fouled him not have to save it to make it even? Though that would be great to watch. . sterling have to try save a penalty from from mikel would be tough to call.

Surely a team should be able to choose whoever they want to take a pen, the idea of only the fouled player should take it is nonsense, at the end of the day it is a team game to win games which if you win enough you win trophies. Player awards are peripheral to the main aim of football, win the points to win games to win trophies. By all means take account of pens when making individual awards but this would just complicate what should and has been straight forward since the game began(unless the rules re pens has changed and I am unaware of the changes).
An example, off a corner Skrtel wins a header at the edge of the area and puts it on a plate for Sturridge to score but is fouled in the process, the ref gives a pen, who should be made to take the pen Skrtel who is fouled (but with little or no chance of scoring) or Sturridge who has the chance to score?
Some things in football may need changing but I don't think this is one of them.

17 Dec 2014 13:09:16
Although it is a slightly glib response, I'd say this is so far down the list of things wrong with the game I wouldn't consider it. The change I would make is to have an assist registered for the player fouled.

I've always thought the player fouled should take the penalty as well, but it would be difficult to figure out how to make that work from a practical perspective. I do think referees should make more use of and/or have increased latitude in calling indirect free kicks inside the box though rather than near every foul being called a penalty.

I understand what you are saying, there is an argument for discussion, but you would have to ask whetehr the rule change would be to give players credit where it is due, or tomake the game fairer for the opposition?

if the answer is The first one, then remember football is a team game and no team member would be arguing about it if giving the penalty to the best penalty taker won them the game.

If Navas takes 4 players, skins the goalie and lays it on to Aguero from a yard should that not count as Aquero's goal because it is "cheap"? Penalties are pure pressure and, in fairness, the players who rank highly in goalscoring charts rarely get there on penalties alone (Lampard and Gerrard maybe more notable exceptions because they are midfielders?). Just think who sticks it in the net deserves the goal - defo agree with the idea of the player fouled getting an assist though.

An orange card to go and sit in the sin bin for 5 mins. Could be used on a player that just needs to calm down rather than get sent off.

Maybe they should rule that only goalies take pens. Sorted.

17 Dec 2014 17:38:29
What about completely changing the penalty to be more like penalties in ice hockey, i.e. run with the ball at the keeper? Or like conversions in rugby where the pen is taken from where the foul was committed?

Personally I would replace penalties with: a) penalty goals in situations where the foul has taken away an obvious goal scoring opportunity. This would then take away need to send off the player who commits the foul, which strikes me as a pretty stupid rule; and b) simply award direct free kicks inside the box where a foul is committed which doesn't remove a direct goal scoring chance - which I suspect would mean many more free kicks in the box were actually given, rather than referees being reluctant to give penalty. It would also clearly make the arguments about scorers getting the credit for penalties academic.

On a similar theme, I would also have short corners as well as long corners depending on where the ball went out - would make it a whole lot more interesting than watching the same corner after corner being lobbed in (also we might turn out to be not terrible at defending short corners, which would be a real bonus)!.

Don't know about penaltys but I've got a punishment for diving? Guilty culprits should be forced to run through "the wall of death", that'd make them think twice. And it's as least a sensible idea as a World Cup in Qatar so it's got a chance of making it.

17 Dec 2014 07:54:45
Hi Eds,

As you will be aware, on SSN, Mr O'Connor made a statement regarding the committee and to probable review of LFC's transfer policy.

What is unclear to me, with all this pressure on BR is that, IF this is true (the committee/transfer policy)- then why is BR getting all this flack for making Poor signings?

I mean, I hated the fact that he signed Balotelli. I thought Lallana was a good player but not worth 25m. I like Markovic and Lovren was probably the best Cb in the league last season.

But if all these players were signed by the "Committee" BR, Ayres and Fallows, then surely this pressure on BR is unjustified.

Its a bit hazy for me. Is the transfer committee a rumour and all signings were down to BR or were some signings made without BR's vote?

Cheers

{Ed001's Note - he voted on all the signings, he is a part of the committee in case you haven't noticed.}

17 Dec 2014 08:24:35
I wouldn't worry about it too much jbeale - if FSG wield the axe on Brendan the rest of the committee will be going out the door with him along with a few others. The longer it goes on before Rodgers is 'dispatched', the more others will also get a portion of the blame.

Rodgers is essentially in charge of the club mate. If he flat out refused to work with a player, they wouldn't have signed him. Every player we have was accepted by Rodgers at the very least.

And as you said Yourself, some of the players signed are bloody good players! Yet Rodgers has only managed to coach them into regressing as players.

It's disgraceful mate.

Eds, I know with the Committee its the vote that counts as to whether LFC go for a player or not. Makes one wonder then if BR was outvoted a number of times with regards some of the players brought in which has created some of the mess that is going on right now (I.e. Committee vote yes, BR vote no!) In any case, I'm sure everyone that is part of the Committee has equal rights, so they all have to live by the rules! Though, must say, its there to help BR, but it hasn't half created chaos.

{Ed001's Note - the chaos was created by Rodgers' failing in the first place. Plus, if he had said he wanted to give some youth players a try and so didn't need so many players, then I am sure no one would have disagreed with that. Instead he pushed for the club to spend big with bigger promises that he is also failing with.}

Spot on Ed001. There is no way any of the committee members would have said no to giving youth players a chance to break into the first team. This season could have been a big breakthrough for the likes of Ibe and at least one of Suso and Teixiera, but sadly Brendan just does not trust the Academy. The owners wanted the club to be self sufficient by using Academy players as much as possible thereby reducing reliance on outside signings but it looks like the exact opposite is happening. Brendan may not be the only one to blame, but he certainly is one of the culprits.

Agree with Ed. Why £20m on Lovren when he was desperate for Ilori who by the way cost £8m played well in preseason(either side of injury) had a great loan season.
Why 19yr old Manquillo on loan (think he is a good player btw) with Wisdom on the books?
Smith at LB again looks great prospect, sign £18m Moreno (again good player but)
Ibe, sign Markovic £20m
Yesil, ok had injury problems but his goal record and back to fitness or Borini BRs own first must buy signing had a great loan at Sunderland, buy £4m Lambert.

List goes on. In Fact, Danny Ward in goal, is he still here? Hope he gets a cup game if Mignolet has been dropped rather then rely on Jones. Could Ward be the answer? Will he ever get a chance or £3m on some Mexican keeper who has had a season on the bench with no prem experience?

I don't buy that Rodgers brought these players in. If Rodgers chose the likes of Sakho, Ilori, Alberto, Aspas, Can, Markovic and Balotelli etc, He would have been playing them regularly to integrate them into the team. The players he bought before the committee came into place were Borini, Allen, Coutinho and Sturridge. The latter 2 have been quality. We will recoup the money spent on Borini and Allen isn't the worst signing we've ever had. I can not understand why people keep saying Rodgers failed in the transfer market.

Red Rum

Red Rum you make a good point. However oyu've conveniently missed off a lot of other players who are either not playing, already gone (Sahin, Aspas, Alberto, Moses) or playing very bad (Mingolet, Lovren).

As i said in my original reply, If Rodgers really didn't want these players or had no intention of playing them, why didn't he just flat out refuse the player and say he'd just use the youth academy? He must've still gone to the committee and told them what positions he wanted to sign players for? If they voted against his choices, and put forward players he want, he could easily have said "no, I'll play Ibe. I don't want Balotelli". But he didn't.

The biggest regret i have on Rodgers behalf is how badly he failed with Nuri Sahin. It actually makes me feel a little sick that we missed out on the opportunity to sign a world class talent because Rodgers wouldn't play him in the right position during his loan to buy deal. Sahin chose us over some bloody good teams and we threw it back in his face and made him play out of position to accomodate Rodgers bizarre idea that Gerrard was a defensive midfielder.

The thing is we don't know for sure who Rodgers wanted and who he didn't. With some players it's clear, with others it's not so clear.

As for refusing players outright and playing the youth players, maybe Rodgers didn't think they were ready. Maybe Rodgers put forward his preferred signings and the money men said no, so he had to gamble with what the voted player.

I'm sure that if he is sacked a lot will come out.

Red Rum

Ed001, BR did NOT vote for ALL the signings as Markovich+Ballotelli were NOT his choice, so in that repect I fail to see how he could have voted FOR them.

{Ed002's Note - You don't understand Alan, it is not that he did not want the players it is simply that they were someone else's choice.}

18 Dec 2014 05:09:28
Ed002, I do understand, surely to god if those signings were NOT BR'S choice then he did NOT want them, otherwise they WOULD be his choice

I remember BR in an interview on Sky when asked about Balotelli and he laughed and categorically said that he would NOT be joining LFC, therefore he was over ruled by the rest of the committee, that statement on it's own tells me that BR did NOT WANT the player

{Ed002's Note - No, you seemingly don't understand Alan.}

17 Dec 2014 03:48:27
Hey eds as always a great job and merry Christmas. Ed001 I saw you say that rodgers talking cost us the salah deal. I thought it was the drawn out low ball offers. I tried to search but couldn't find it. Would appreciate a brief explanation if you could.

{Ed001's Note - that would be a question for Ed002, as he did explain a number of times why it caused Salah to be upset.}

Thanks ed I found it. Seems rodgers' go to is the "high risk" excuse. That is embarrassing especially when you weigh Allen's fee into the mix. Skill and attacking threat command more money for most not br. on field ambiguity is what he yearns for. Thanks again

{Ed001's Note - no worries, glad you found it ok.}

16 Dec 2014 21:34:02
I like BR as a coach. He has a good style of football. Speaks well about the city and club
But I have major questions to ask about his player recruitment.
Ive got a list of players he has signed and money he spent
Borini 10m, Allen 15m, Assaidi 3m, Sahin loan, yesil 1m, Sturridge 12m, Coutinho 8m, Teiveira 1m, Alberto 7m, Aspas 7m, Mignolet 9m, Sako 15m, Llori 7m, Lambert 4m, Lallana 25m, Can 10 m, Markovic 20m, Lovern 20m, Origi 10m, Moreno 12m and Balotelli 16m

That's over 200m. Bar 3 r 4 at a push a list of failures. A manager lives and dies by his signings . BR might get to the end of the season but I can see the above list getting him the sack
Whats the opinion of the eds and other Pool fans?

I agree that a lot of these haven't lived up to their billing, but when the FSG strategy is to invest in young talent, not everyone is going to make the step up to Premier League starters so I think there will always be some attrition rate.

What I have a bigger problem with is Rogers selection decisions this season, which I believe has hampered a lot of those mentioned above, particularly Borini, Sakho, Llalana, Can, Markovic and Moreno. Perhaps even Balotelli who hasn't been played enough with another striker.

If you don't create a stable team selection, or even worse consistently rotate good players after strong performances (esp. Llalana, Can) then consistency drops, morale falls and it's almost impossible for youngsters to deliver on their potential.

Llalana, Can, Moreno should already be first team regulars in my opinion, with Markovic, Borini and Sakho given a lot more game time, and in that context I think if Rogers doesn't make good decisions and establish a solid backbone for the team for the second half of the season (eg. I would drop Johnson, Lovren, Allen, Enrique and perhaps even SG/Hendo for some games to give some of the new talent a run) then that's why I'd feel it's time to replace him.