Liverpool Banter Archive December 17 2016

17 Dec 2016 20:28:46
I love this argument that Chelsea have an advantage in the title race because their defence being better means that if they don't score they might still get a draw!

We've drawn 4 games, meanwhile Chelsea have only drawn 1! And our draws have been 0-0, 0-0, 1-1 and 2-2. So not exactly games where our defence has opened up like flood gates. The advantage Chelsea have is that they don't throw points away against weak opposition. We have lost to Burnley and Bournemouth. Chelsea have lost to Liverpool and Arsenal.

There is your difference. They are up for every game, meanwhile we have got complacent too often. They can afford to lose to Liverpool and Arsenal because they very rarely chuck points against mid table or lower league teams.

Conceding goals is only an issue if you are not scoring more than the opposition anyway. Call me Klopp mk2, but I would rather win 4-2 against Palace than 1-0. No clean sheet is irrelevant if our good and GS column is healthier.

Anyway, what is it with the extremities? Literally a week ago I had to post on here to call people to stop making out Chelsea were "lucky" and that they would "struggle without Costa". Now it has gone polar opposite, and Chelsea are the benchmark! They are a good team, but we have beaten them already this season, and we are hot on their heels. Not to be underestimated, but also not as good as some people think. There are more than 50 shades of grey in between black and white!

Some posters are so dramatic!

17 Dec 2016 21:06:22
I ll tell you my version MK. Liverpool have a great chance to go on and win the title and I would bloody sweat blood on the pitch to make it happen. It will be us and chelsea for the title. Arsenal will collapse just like they always do while UTD will be the surprise entry into the top 4 at the expense of City.
Your second para is more of a cliche, I would rather 6-4 than 2-0😎. I don't think they really want to score too many Chelsea, they are more interested in securing points than entertaining people.

Chelsea are a decent team with some good players and some very poor players who plays well in a system which brings out their strength and erase their weaknesses

Marcos Alonso is a very average LB but a very decent wing back courtsey of the system they play.

6 points is a decent gap and if we don't win on Monday it will be 9 which means when you are chasing anything the pressure is always on you.

17 Dec 2016 21:18:28
I have been hearing lately that Chelsea will be found out soon but none are explaining what are their main weakness. I don't want to ask Ed's on this but can any poster actually explain how you could beat Chelsea other than occupying the space behind their wing backs?
There are not too many forwards who would breach their gigantic midfield. Except City and the first half show by Moussa dembele Chelsea never looked vulnerable at all.
Let's have some tactical discussions 😎. How will any team breach 3-4-3 who play a vey defensive football when not in possession?

17 Dec 2016 21:24:03
All depends on injuries or lack off them.

17 Dec 2016 22:57:25
Harry you play with a 3 in the midfield and you flood one side probably the left as Moses can't defend so Azpilicueta will have to move over to help him opening up space in their back line as the others will have to compensate. You will dominate the midfield as you have the extra man and at the same time pull one of the front 3 back to compensate for that. Hazard and Costa will still cause you problems but you will create lots of chances. One thing you don't do is try to match them up. That's a major thing that Pep did wrong but even then they should e been 3-0 up at half time. Spurs did it well for 45 minutes and should've been well in front at half time. I honestly believe Chelsea will drop like a stone after they lose one game as teams are starting to get to grips with them now but they are just about scraping through.

17 Dec 2016 23:25:12
Hot on there heels? How do you define that?

They are 9 points clear and we have an unpredictable derby next.

In was only a few weeks ago we were top, it is they who were hot on our heels now they are riding away.

In other news it's still that lad from Brazil but plays for Spain as the main reason they are winning all the time. Not that they don't deserve to have a world class striker bang in form because who's to say they don't.

18 Dec 2016 01:56:24
Dot they won't last the distance. It's not that long ago people were writing them off for top 4 and saying City would walk the league. Just relax they have far too many average players in a very average system to keep up their current form.

18 Dec 2016 03:13:22
Chelsea are good, but I feel that they are peaking way too early in the season.

18 Dec 2016 05:07:10
They are a solid team but VERY reliant on costa ( more so than we are on any 1 player) they have picked up 6 points in last 2 games with about 4 efforts on target. Those 2 goals have come from nothing. He misses the next game- I think they will draw or lose It as a result. Just need a few more bans for him lol I also have my doubts if they can change this style of play enough when they will fall behind in games.

18 Dec 2016 07:57:56
Pip

Every team plays with 3 in the midfield. Either you call him an ACM or a striker dropping deep. Lallana is the third midfielder and I don't expect him to play anything different to exploit their weakness. I agree with your view on their full backs vulnerabilities but they do have an extra CB to cover if required.

{Ed001's Note - where do you come up with this nonsense from? Leicester played all last season and this season with a midfield 4, not a 3. Chelsea play with 4 across the middle. Everton have played a midfield 4 a number of times as well. As have Watford. Every team plays things slightly differently, so please stop this obsession you have with it being only a 3.}

18 Dec 2016 08:10:51
You got it wrong there. I have not included the wide players in the midfield.

{Ed001's Note - how have I got it wrong? If you don't understand what a midfield is, then don't suggest others got it wrong! You have it wrong if you are not including the wide midfielders in the midfield. Think about what you are typing please.}

18 Dec 2016 09:19:22
I still maintain Costa is the player Chelsea are most reliant on and in his absence have a relatively unproven replacement. Unfortunately I don't this his suspension will be that big a Miss considering the opposition Chelsea have next at home. If Chelsea were missing Costa for the length of time we have not had Couts then that would make a difference to their results.
They will be there for the duration of the season in my view.
Eds - is there any difference with the 343 Chelsea are deploying and the one Rodgers hijacked off Basel? Or is it simply a case of players generally being better at Chelsea and more of them in roles suited to them?

{Ed001's Note - there are always differences, as the players play their roles differently. Also, the system Rodgers half-inched from Basel was a half-arsed copy which never used the feature that caused so much trouble to us in the first place. Basel didn't play a standard 3-4-3, they switched between a 3-4-3 and flat back four depending on whether they were attacking or defending. All basic stuff that Rodgers and his analysts should have been sacked for needing more than 180 mins of football to see. They should have approached the game fully understanding what the Swiss did, but we had a woeful lack of preparation at that time.}

18 Dec 2016 12:38:42
For a Chelsea comparison, remember when we switched to 3 CB's and 2 WB's in the 2015/ 2015 season? It was so effective for a little while that Mingolet was in contention for the Golden Glove at the end of the season. However, it greatly reduces firepower up front that means eventually we stopped scoring. And the because we needed to commit more forward to help scoring, we started the crumble at the back. The PL is just too fast and too powerful to play 3 at the back without the very rare type of specialised wingbacks like Dani Alves to make you do it - makeshifts fail. Right now Chelsea are already in the first stage of that - they've only been able to score 1 a game for 3 games in a row (and 4 games out of 6) and will soon find themselves drawing repeated because they fail to knick that one goal.

18 Dec 2016 13:45:10
No system is infallible, it will be found out soon enough. The key is to be versatile and to have a team that can change its set-up based on the game situation.

18 Dec 2016 23:04:55
The key is to be versatile Ron - and that could be our problem too, because we never change our style even when we are 2/ 3 goals up. It keeps coming back to bite us.

19 Dec 2016 01:24:26
The 3-4-3 is basically a defensive formation, one that a lot of coaches and teams in Italy played in the early 2000`s especially Juventus under Lippi where Conte played in and the Italian national team under Dino Zoff, one Conte also played in. all with this system.

In a system like that, you have 6 defensive players when in possession and up to 8 defensive players when you are not. The system has its holes like every other one, especially one where Conte doesn`t have the right personnel for it. Alonso, Moses, Cahill and Luiz IMO, are average players and that is starting to show. The system is built to hide weaknesses of individual players as Wales showed at the Euros and Chelsea`s players` inadequacies are also staring to show. In their last 4 games, they have been shown up as average but either Costa did his thing or teams like Palace or Sunderland did not have enuff attacking quality to punish them. We are the only team with the attacking quality to hurt them and they know it.

Where we to play them, we are better than them in CM as we have Lallana who is the X factor and they have no player like him who can press, defend, score and assist. We have the wingers and FB`s to push their wingbacks back and take advantage of them.

They may have Hazard and Costa to provide goals but we have Couts, Firmino, Origi, Mane and Lallana who can provide goals as well. Thay are being found out and they will not go all season on a winning streak. They can be beaten and very soon, we will see that.

19 Dec 2016 12:04:43
KBL - how many times has it "come back to bite us" this season? You don't need to change if the original system is still working.

17 Dec 2016 18:04:17
Ed1,

You stated recently that you don't think Origi will ever be world class. Out of interest, what do you think his ceiling is?

Do you think he could become a 20-goal per season player?

{Ed001's Note - depends on the team he is playing in. He could have hit 20 this season, if he had been first choice. I think he is top class, but world class is just for those, imo, that are first choice in any team in the world. He is not going to reach a Ronaldo/Messi level, where every team would make room for him, but he could make that next level down.}

17 Dec 2016 22:59:52
So just Ronaldo and Messi are world class in your opinion Ed? The next level down would be Aguero, Suarez, Bale kind of level?

18 Dec 2016 00:13:27
Thanks ed1. I see what you were getting at now. Thanks for the reply mate.

{Ed001's Note - welcome mate and yes Pipss.}

17 Dec 2016 17:16:03
Whose getting the first sack of the season?
My money on Padrew. With the players at his disposal that's a pathetic showing.
Ed01, Whose your pick?

{Ed001's Note - hasn't Guidolin already got that?}

17 Dec 2016 18:23:24
Good one Harry! If it's any consolation I think pardew will be next, he's said some less than wise things about their American backers and I'm sure they will be happy to show him the door soon.

17 Dec 2016 22:02:19
I still don't understand the Bradley hire. He did himself a disservice, in my opinion, by making those stupid comments about being at the same level as Klopp and Guardiola. I think he set himself up for failure. Just my opinion.

17 Dec 2016 14:39:00
Chelsea are looking worryingly good. The advantage of having a good defence is that even if they don't score, they are likely to get a point. The disadvantage of having a shaky defence is that, like LFC, if your forward are having a bad day, you are likely to lose. That's why Chelsea are favourites for the title. They have a pragmatic manager, which I wish Klopp was.
Your thoughts please.

17 Dec 2016 15:04:42
It's only such a distance really because of the ridiculas Bournemouth game, we should really be just behind them.

As good as Chelsea are looking, there not being tested by anyone and costa is a one chance one goal player.

I agree that they will win it this year I don't think k it will be close but mainly due to our own inability to manage games as I believe we are a better team.

17 Dec 2016 15:08:30
Chelsea pretty much have a team that won the league 2 years ago, and they won it comfortably. Liverpool have been rebuilding for 6 years more or less, would you really be disappointed if we were to finish 2nd, 3rd or 4th? Work in progress, as for Conte I'd rather have Klopp thanks☺️.

17 Dec 2016 15:09:16
lol I don't think a lot are going to agree with you. I have said it in the past the main difference between Chelsea and Liverpool is, Chelsea just need a single goal to secure all three points while Liverpool need to score at least 3 or more goals.

17 Dec 2016 15:18:10
Fornax

What you mean by work in progress, Did not Chelsea change their manager in the summer. 3-4-3 is something they never played in their history.
All this Liverpool rebuilding is getting boring now.

17 Dec 2016 15:22:49
Ye there are a few games where we have needed to score 3 or more to win but all teams do this, but out of the 16 games we've played we have only conceded more than 1 in 5 of those games in the league. So this "liverpool need to score 3 or more to win" is bs. More made up points to better your cause.

17 Dec 2016 15:27:39
Harry, you are having a conversation that has no bearing on the topic being discussed so try to keep up.

The reason Fornax provided is the MAIN reason why Chelsea are where they are right now. Their team is full of players like Cahill, Ivanovic, Courtois, Fabregas, Willian, Kante and so on, who are not just experienced, but experienced at winning league titles, EL, CL and the like.

This is what allows them to manage different situations much better than us because they have been sub par in the last 5 games, the last three especially. It has nothing to do with being able to keep a lone goal lead or any of that nonsense.

Ours is an inexperienced team in this regard and that gap can`t be made up overnight even though our manager has been successful at winning things as well as challenging and winning Cups and making finals, continental and domestic.

Chelsea are the most equipped to win it this year. For us, challenging for the title as it stands now, may be too soon for us hence, we have to secure CL footie as that would be a major step forward. Otherwise, you will be disappointed if we don`t win the PL for no reason.

17 Dec 2016 15:52:33
Hamilton never disappoints me with excuses. Chelsea are playing well because they adjusted and adapted to their new system better and faster than anyone. 3-4-3 is not an easy system to play, it was never a success in PL.
I don't know at what point are you going to give any credit to their manager.
By your logic we ll never win the league because we don't have a player who won it in the past.

How are they equipped with better players? No one with proper brains would pick Pedro over Mane while who is Coutinho or Firmino inferior to mate? And let's not go at Cahil or Azpi both average at best.

Chelsea play a pragmatic way of football and have no intention to please any outside world.

They are successful because they know how to win a match at 1-0 against any kind of opposition.

17 Dec 2016 15:54:11
Lol Hamilton Fabrigas has been warming the bench since August while Azpi is a RB playing at CB. Some of your excuses could reach the moon faster than light.

17 Dec 2016 16:17:16
I say let's wait and see how long Chelsea is able to keep this up. Everyone is forgetting the human quotient and involvement in the sport. Conte is well known to be a volatile, sharp-tongued and aggresive character with no fear of disciplining his players. Very much the same way Mourinho was. These players, most of whom won the title 2 years ago, didn't take Mourinho's carp last year and look what happened. Let's see if Chelsea's prima donnas can put up with Conte's antics for an entire season and go all the way. I have my doubts.

17 Dec 2016 16:27:06
Harry doing what he does best, drooling over other teams and players, never satisfied with ours are you?

I'm sure if we go defensive you will be saying we need to attack like barca, man city etc.

17 Dec 2016 16:35:49
Kante and Costa miss the next league game suspended.

We win on Monday and they are 6 points ahead.
It's too early to crown Chelsea, have a bit of faith in LFC.
Chelsea will come unstuck.

17 Dec 2016 16:41:35
John

That's not true and I was replying to some of the pure rubbish speculations by some here. If you Ghee's a valid arguments bring some valid points and not mere excuses. I just hate excuses.
I have no problem with our league position just like I don't bitch about other teams.

17 Dec 2016 17:18:23
Yeah that's right harry, you bitch about our team, never satisfied with the style we play whatever it is. Our players, basically you want us to play only defensive midfielders, all our midfielders, henderson, wijnaldum, can all bad, static, side way passing etc.

Oh and how every other player/ team who plays against us is amazing, its getting boring mate. We can't be amazing at everything all at once.

17 Dec 2016 17:54:53
leave it out John, You are not the first one to misundetand my view. Merry Christmas.

17 Dec 2016 19:55:13
Our only worry right now is getting 3 points against Everton on Monday, as Ron said its far too soon to crown Chelsea its not as if they are setting the world alight with good football, they will get found out soon and then we will see what they are made of. My biggest fear for Liverpool is Man City.

17 Dec 2016 23:32:38
Ive watched Chelseas league games for the past few weeks without being particularly impressed. They look like a solid enough team who are desperately grateful that Costa can create a goal out of nothing to win 1-0.
Their experience might take them over the line but i equally i wouldn't be suprised if they end up 2nd or 3rd.

17 Dec 2016 23:44:00
IMO Chelsea are riding a wave which is slowly fizzling out. Their performance level has got worse and worse over this run they're on so they need to change something as they won't keep scraping wins the way they are. Teams are finding them out and after the first loss they'll crumble. They'll be top 4 this season but not champions.

18 Dec 2016 00:43:49
Harry, I never said it was fun that we've been in a constant state of transition, that doesn't change thenfact that we have been. I think after parting ways with King Kenny the club took a modest punt on Rodgers, which nearly paid off to be fair, but they could have handled his exit better, as Klopp was not available at the appropriate time I don't overly mind however.

Now we have an experienced manager with a clear idea about how he likes to play football, he's made the players buy into the system, and he really looks like he gets the club and the city. While we clearly brought the squad forward in the this summer, more work is required and we clearly still have a few players to shift.

The case is different at Chelsea who have a great squad, and pretty big talent pool to fill certain voids in it. I personally think that Moses and Alonso are working well in the system going forward as Kante and Matic are very effective defensively and provide ample protection for their back 3. It's a very well balanced team. They have a top striker in top form, and Hazard has started to perform again.

I hope we do win the league, and I think we definitely have a chance as Chelsea will soon slip up, we just have to keep pace for the time being. We've got to be realistic when we look at what success means this year, I'd be very happy with top 4 and a trophy.

19 Dec 2016 01:45:24
Wow, Harry your response to my post is embarrassing.

Regarding my post, where did I make excuses? Where did I say Chelsea had better players than us, quality wise? You clearly have issues reading and understanding because I said nor implied NOTHING of the sort.

I said that their team has players who are experienced at winning things together hence, are able to manage different situations better than us. These are facts, not excuses. Where in that, did I you get that their players are better? Half their team won the PL 2 years ago so as a result, they ARE indeed better equipped to win it this year so again, where is the excuse there?

Also, mentioning random players, systems, managers and teams out of thin air with no idea of how they impact the argument or debate, is not a good way to make your point as it only makes you more clueless. You do that all the time and you embarrass yourself at every turn.

17 Dec 2016 14:06:48
Hi all. First time posting. I believe Chelsea will win the league because they will win at least 10 games 1-0 and none of their rivals can do this.

17 Dec 2016 14:16:38
Valid point until now. But we haven't even reached half way of the season yet. Factor in injuries and dips in form, and maybe the final picture will look different.

17 Dec 2016 14:18:52
They're looking good at the moment.
But it is a long winter.

If Utd keep Jones fit they could put a run together.

And hopefully if we sort out our defensive issues and get Sturridge and Coutinio fit we can put a run together.

Its going to be closer thann it looks now.

17 Dec 2016 15:00:58
Lol Dermot stirrings? Come off it what's he going to do. Be realistic for God's sake. I do agree it'll be close but sturridge will play no part of it.

17 Dec 2016 15:30:16
Sturridge adds vital depth that we are in desperate need of right now. Games like West Ham could easily be different with sturridge on the field but the problem with that is Klopps use of substitutions is poor.

17 Dec 2016 23:27:55
Sturridge is quality.
Bring him on for the last half hour.
He's the last thing defenders with tired legs would want to see.

I predict he will score the winning goal at Wembley this year.

Also I think woodburn is absolute top draw.

19 Dec 2016 01:50:53
Before he scores at Wembley, he will need to train consistently first and that is no longer a given.

17 Dec 2016 11:53:53
Hi Ed

I know he's left now but what was your opinion of Rodolfo Borrell please? Cheers.

{Ed001's Note - in what way? Surely the only thing you need to know about him is that he was in large part responsible for the quality coming from the academy right now?}

17 Dec 2016 12:11:52
I meant how good he was as a coach, why he left and if we ever tried to get him back?

{Ed001's Note - as I remember his role, he was the overseer of the coaches, rather than an actual coach at Liverpool. He left because he was talking to Man City behind our back and was asked to leave. No we have never tried to get him back.}

17 Dec 2016 12:17:04
Thank you Ed. Hope you enjoy the festive season and get everything you wish for 😏.

{Ed001's Note - thank you mate, I will settle for Liverpool winning every game over it! Have a great festive season too. I would hope you get everything you wish for, but if you wish for the kind of things Ed003 does, it is better you don't get it all.....}