Liverpool Banter Archive May 18 2017

18 May 2017 22:18:48
What about Iheanacho as striker? He's a striker that scores goals, when given a chance. With the amount of chances we create, he could bang them in for us. Any thoughts.?

18 May 2017 22:35:08
He is no better than Origi in my opinion.

{Ed025's Note - he would have to be a very poor player to be worse than origi MK, hes like bambi on ice mate.. :)

18 May 2017 22:54:46
Decent player but I'd personally go for Batshuayi if available.

Liked him before he joined Chelsea, surely he'd jump at the chance if he's made available?

I do hope we keep sturridge but we need someone else just in case he breaks a toe nail 😂.

18 May 2017 23:16:49
Batshuayi will have the same problem as Origi. I do not see why anyone would want a player who is still learning his trade when Origi has to do the same?

What exactly has Batshuayi done at Chelsea to show that he is any better than Origi?

18 May 2017 23:33:45
Put it this way, if Man City or Chelsea are happy for us to have either player on the cheap, we should take it as a sign they're not good enough. There are far better strikers around than Batshuayi and Iheanacho. I'd like to see us aim a little higher.

19 May 2017 00:02:15
TQ - like when we got Sturridge on the cheap? Cop on mate.

19 May 2017 00:10:31
Max, he's hardly been given a run of games like origi has he? For the record I'm not saying origi should be sold but he has a long way to go to prove himself.

Batshuayi was a sought after player by many teams due to his former, he's big and powerful, very fast and is a natural goalscorer, always looking at getting into a dangerous area like sturridge.

Like I said I'd keep origi for now but in my OPINION, Batshuayi is the better and most natural of the 2.

19 May 2017 00:15:37
They wouldn't be available on the cheap though! Both are good players, both are ahead of origi in terms of ability (in my opinion) and either of them would fit right in.

Give me names of these better quality players that we could sign who would choose us over the top teams in Europe.

19 May 2017 00:22:19
Different situation mate. And having seen quite a bit of both players, I don't think either is good enough. Iheanacho might come good in time, but we need players that are good now and not in two or three seasons. As I said, there are better strikers around.

19 May 2017 01:08:45
Origi is 22 and playing in a team without width.
I think he has done well in most games
in the other games eg Southampton he was harshly criticised for holding up the ball for too long, to be surrounded by deep sitting Southampton defenders and midfielders.

The reason he was caught so often used there was none of our team making runs to give him an angle to pass to. and draw defenders away.

19 May 2017 01:20:35
What is it with fans wanting to sign our rivals weaker players? he isn't good enough to play regularly for City so why would he be good enough for us? we need first team level players not more potential pushing our youngsters further down the pecking order.

19 May 2017 02:41:54
Just as a matter of interest, I thought I'd grab the stats to compare Origi and Iheanacho -

Origi -

Played 2718 total minutes for Liverpool (appx 30 games totalled up)

Goals - 14 (almost 1 in 2)
Assists - 5 (1 in 6)

Iheanacho -

Played 1438 total minutes for City (appx 16 games)

Goals - 14 (almost 1 per game)
Assists - (1 in 4)

So, while "better" is subjective, on the surface Iheanacho appears to be more effective. Take into account the fact that he would generally come on at the end of games, when they'd already been won, whereas Origi has started a fair few games.

{Ed001's Note - and they play different roles, get different amounts of chances created for them etc. Stats are meaningless. Origi has played on the wing as often as up front, Iheanacho has always been a sub to come on against tiring legs up front. These kind of stat misuse is why stats should be banned from being used at all. This is complete crap and all it has done is put a bunch of random numbers out with no context to use to judge them by.}

18 May 2017 23:06:28
Now now 25. Just because he made Robles look silly the other week ;)

{Ed025's Note - thats not really hard now is it MK, imo origi is a half decent player but is he going to win you anything?...no..

19 May 2017 07:18:30
We need defenders.

19 May 2017 07:38:03
I think Origi gets an unfair amount of stick. His form is so so but who's wouldn't be after being in an out of the team like he has. Whenever he has a run he seems to score, although I do see him more effective on the left side of a three, something I believe he himself has said. I didn't see many people slating Couts or bobby when they had dips earlier this year. Origi has everything physically to be a very good player, just needs to mature a little. Yes I know player like Ali, Mbappe, and Rashford and more advanced in their games, but players grow at different rates so it's not really an argument for me.

19 May 2017 09:04:03
When will we learn to give players time? Lucas, Henderson and most recently Can! Have patience, we say give players game time but when we do and don't get instant results it's off with their head.

19 May 2017 10:23:26
Ed, got to call you on this one, whilst I agree that stats need context to back them up the scoring record is relevant here. Given his situation Origi's scoring rate is OK, given Iheanacho's situation his scoring rate is sensational.

If you ask which one is the better prospect then one is currently head and shoulders over the other.

{Ed001's Note - how are they relevant on that alone? Iheanacho comes on for a dominant team against tired legs purely to score goals. Origi often plays wide, when played up front he is usually tasked with holding up the ball and bringing others into play. Origi is the better current player, which is why he has been able to get a run of games while Iheanacho couldn't even when Aguero was injured. Yes one is currently head and shoulders over the other, Origi. That is why Origi has been an established international striker for a country with numerous striker options for a few years now, while Iheanacho has struggled to break into a weak national team.

I really hate this fetish everyone has for lauding other club's prospects as so much better than our own, for no reason other than they don't play for us. It is like the site is populated with Harrys.}

19 May 2017 11:13:38
Love it 001.

19 May 2017 11:27:35
i'd rather put faith in woodburn and wilson.

19 May 2017 12:48:56
Given that Woody and Wilson are already in the squad and Klipperty can choose whoever he wants as forward options, why not trust him when he sees that often Origi is a good option.

It is clear that Klopp will give players a chance. If Woody is "better" or Wilson is "better", or if he feels in the long term it is better to trust the 2 youngsters, he will give them game time.

19 May 2017 13:04:12
It’s got nothing to do with lording other players above our own, it’s to do with making an honest assessment of two players. Iheanacho is two years younger than Origi, he’s a starter and serial scorer for his country and he’s delivered the goods for City when he’s played. Origi can’t get off the bench for Belgium and is fourth choice (at best) behind Lukaku and Benteke, two players you’ve regularly disparaged. He’s been given ample opportunity at Liverpool and has yet to do demonstrate that he’s an effective option leading the line, coming off the bench, playing as a striker or any other role. Origi’s had plenty of opportunity at Liverpool but sooner or later he has to start delivering, not just with goals but his all round game because he’s not at the level we need and, right now, it doesn’t look like he’ll ever get there.

19 May 2017 13:32:18
I'm calling it now Origi hat trick against Boro 😂.

19 May 2017 13:55:14
Wouldn't doubt it ;-)

{Ed001's Note - and how is 8 caps a starter and serial scorer for a country? Crap utter and complete crap. People just make up bollox to keep an argument going. I am done with this idiotic bull Harry style crap. Your post is laughable. Origi has 23 caps for Belgium, not bad for 4th choice is it at his age when most players can't get in the Belgian squad? While the lad you are making up nonsense to support has barely got into a Nigeria squad that has not had a decent striker in years! Maybe you should try supporting our young striker? No wonder we struggle so badly, our own 'supporters' are so quick to jump on the back of youngsters every time they play. And yes you are just like Harry in this argument, this is exactly what he does, makes rash judgements based on a couple of sub appearances and then decide our players need to be replaced based on a five minute sub appearance by another player. All the while conveniently forgetting that our young player also looked fantastic when making those sub appearances.}

19 May 2017 14:24:51
I do agree with ed whole-heartedly with this notion of some of our fans always slating our own players and lauding other players (esp. their rejects or bench warmers) as if they are not on the bench at other teams for a reason.

I'm a Nigerian and it will be easy to pick Iheanacho over Origi by country bias BUT that would b a full rejection of truth. Origi is head and shoulders above Iheanacho and that is a fact. No amount of stats will erode that. Origi is being asked to do a lot more than Iheanacho does, altho he is very talented. Origi is also more experienced having played in a WC, the Euros and a European final.

The kid has all the tools you need to be a great CF as many see him as a blend of Drogba (power and aerial ability) and Therry Henry (pace, footwork and dribbling ability) . Even Rashford is not better than him. Let's just support our own players instead of looking at other team's duds with the warped thinking that they must be better than ours cos they don't play for us.

19 May 2017 16:16:23
Ed, I’m fine with you disagreeing with my opinion but don’t try to undermine my point with chaff about coveting other team's players or not being supportive. Origi has my support, I will cheer him on the pitch, wish him well in all he does and be grateful for the goals he’s scored in the last two years, I will be delighted if I’m wrong in my assessment of him. But if you think his performances for Liverpool or Belgium mark him as a player of high quality then your radar is off.

As for Iheanacho I've been following his progress for a year or so. I even asked ed2 about him a couple of months back. This isn't a knee jerk, I think he may be a special player and if City don't recognize that then I'd be delighted to give him a home.

{Ed001's Note - you are making your assessment of him on sub appearances, yet you forget that Origi was just as good in sub cameo appearances.

Oh and I will say what I like, if you don't like it try showing some support instead of constantly bitching about him with no reason for it. The lad played well last week, yet all you want to do is replace him. If that is support then I give up on football!

Oh and you might want to actually try learning about a player whose progress you claim to have followed for a year or two, then you won't come out with guff about him being a regular for his country after 8 games!

I am happy to give Origi time, it is this knee jerk reaction to young players who don't shine after an initial good start that sees them get consigned to the dustbin far too early. Every young player goes through a tough time, no matter who they are, as the opposition learns their game. The key is to support them and give them time to gain experience so they can improve and become the player they first showed glimpses of.

How long would it be after we signed someone like Iheanacho before you would be after the next youngster to catch your eye when Iheanacho hits a bad patch? Youth development is about showing patience, not discarding them after a bad season. If only United had done that with their youngsters way back when Giggs was struggling and Sharpe was keeping him out of the team! Or when Beckham was going through a tough patch etc. Even great players like Ronaldo and Messi didn't just emerge fully formed and play great from the moment they appeared. Good job you have no role to play in youth development or no players would ever make it as they would all be on the scrapheap in their second season for the next young wunderkind!}

20 May 2017 10:38:43
Putney, I like your posts normally but you are wrong here. Origi is a very promising prospect. Support our players and youngsters cos they are not the finished article for a reason. They a young and will make mistakes and have bad patches. Discarding them just cos they are struggling and fawning over other team's youngsters 9who aren't even better than ours in this case) is pointless.

Please, support Origi cos he's our player (Iheanacho is not) and cos he is going to be here as long as Klopp wants him and you're going to have to deal with that. If you give up on Origi no or any young player now, you do not deserve the player you want him to be.

18 May 2017 20:11:45
Win lose or draw on sun, regardless, I'll still be a red, support the boys, and will back us every day because as life and history teaches us, nothing lasts forever, empires rise and fall, a supporter will always show support, goes without saying we all want to win, everything, standard but to paraphrase a famous blonde, if you can't support when we're in the bad times then you don't deserve to embrace with the good.

18 May 2017 22:21:31
Cheers for that, I for one won't be supporting them any more if it's not atleast a 4-0 win.

18 May 2017 17:20:00
Hi dear eds and all Reds. long time reader first time poster. I have been enjoying to read all the debates and banter from follow reds. Ed001, Ed002, 025, 033, 007 are immense to this site. I miss some of our old posters kan aguaro, bobatron, ozone, reet, and some other of the top of my head. Some old and quality posters are still there Mk, Maxlfc, hytch, big all, something red, Harry, Waro etc. Enjoyed your posts thanks for staying and making the site batter. Hope our old buddies will return. Ed's we can't thank you enough. YNWA.

{Ed002's Note - You are very kind. Thank you.}

18 May 2017 17:24:43
To get a thanks from you Ed made my day Hugh fan of you.

18 May 2017 19:09:13
Welcome to the family Hope. Look forward to reading more from you!

18 May 2017 19:44:21
I too am a huge fan, I have posters of ed002 all over my bedroom wall.

19 May 2017 11:41:01
That's not a true fan, Daredman, pah!

I have a group photo of the eds, taken at the last L-R staff outing (day after transfer window closed) up on my ceiling, bud! 😍.

18 May 2017 13:11:06
A point needs to be made, our season doesn't rest on one game, winning on Sunday doesn't mean we've had a good season and losing doesn't mean it's been bad.

If you think we've made progress than be satisfied regardless of where we finish, if you thought we would be better then getting top 4 doesn't mean you're wrong.

Sunday's result is important for next season but it's just another game for this one.

18 May 2017 13:53:20
Like the last mile of a marathon is just another mile? Sorry but if you don't run it, it still leaves a disappointing taste in the mouth that you didn't finish properly.

What I do agree with however is this squad is in good shape and we've forward substantially vs. a year and a half ago and that won't be lost even if we end up playing Europa League instead of CL. So long as we keep Coutinho and bring in 2-3 top signings we will be in very good shape and hopefully be challenging.

18 May 2017 14:05:13
Bull, we have got this far winning our last game is a must for us or this will be a major setback . The transfers this summer are dependant on qualification for CL . Fail at this hurdle and we have undone all the progress .

18 May 2017 14:06:29
I'd have to disagree strongly with you on this. I think being in and out of the Champions League competition has consequences on both the short and long term. Liverpool, needs, and deserves, to be in the Champions League because it is THE international stage for all ambitious and high level teams. You're someone if you're in there. You're a "was, or could have been" someone, if you're not. I'm aware many people don't care if LFC makes or doesn't make the European Leagues as long as they win some form of local English tile. But the implications of being in the UCL are tremendous from a PR, viewership and global awareness viewpoint. Not just revenues. We have to move away from the narrow, strictly focused, highly localized viewpoints and recognize that even a local competition like the EPL is actually an international one now, with all the foreign owners, foreign managers, foreign players and foreign viewers and supporters. EPL teams just "reside" in a city in the UK, and everything else (owners, managers, players, supporters) can be anything but local. Things have changed drastically and I believe, we have to move along with them if we want LFC to grow and develop to the prominence we had in the past, and which other teams have grown to now, after recognizing all these things.

18 May 2017 14:27:17
Just to clarify you're all talking about the future, I'm talking about the present. One game doesn't change the nature of the previous 37. Those games were either good, bad or average, Sunday can't change that.

It would be interesting if people were prepared to state today your thoughts about the season, before Sunday's game.

18 May 2017 14:51:46
PutneyRed - My opinion about this season, before Sunday's game is that the season has been a success in comparison to the previous season. Regardless of whether we end up in Champions League or Europa League, our final position in the EPL is better, the manager is settled down, there's far more support for the team and the manager than under Hodgson or Rodger's final days, and I see a lot of potential for future improvement.

18 May 2017 14:56:11
Ok Putney

I believe we have improved this season, and I think that shows in the fact that we can beat all the team's around us.

The only problem is breaking down the lower placed teams.

If we learn to do that next season then we push for the title.
Our problem has been squad depth and injuries this season.

This last game though means everything, we lose then we have nothing to show for the season regardless of the team improving or not.

18 May 2017 15:30:41
Everyone got their hopes up after a strong start to the season. We've done OK to rally after January and February and to get top 4 at this point would represent a significant victory for the side and will have given the players good experience regardless of the end result. It's still in our hands after all, all we have to do is win against Middlesbrough. I think we will learn a lot about the players mentality on Saturday, only they can win or lose this for the club at this point.

18 May 2017 17:39:56
Well said Putney.

What has disappointed me is that this team has no fight.

I've always supported my team and manager on here, but lately I'm depressed by the same thing every season.

The sooner that the manager gets to grip with the league the better.

18 May 2017 18:48:42
lavaers, the whole "not being able to beat lesser teams" is becoming a tedious and boring old narrative. I see why this keeps being mentioned because our losses have come against them. However, what no one is saying is that of our 21 wins, 14 have come vs teams below the top 7. Have we messed up at times and not shown belief, pragmatism (Bournemouth x2) or steel (vs Swansea and Palace)? Sure. But to continue harping on about not beating lesser teams is a tired narrative, IMO.

As for Sun, the boys need to use the parts of pressure that is "good", per Klopp as in, the part that motivates you to be the best, to fight, strive for excellence and win and if we do that, Boro will be no match for us. I also hope the Anfield crowd will bring it on Sun as well cos the atmosphere is getting dul.

18 May 2017 19:12:11
N Red

13 teams below 7th spot so that means 26 games.

So 14 wins from them games is nowhere near good enough IMO.

We need to be beating these teams to have a chance of winning the league.

18 May 2017 19:58:06
I think this team has plenty of spirit, it's not spirit we lack, it's focus and game intelligence at times, rightly or wrongly, the team has shown spirit numerous times, coming from behind in games to win, to play til the final whistle, no one doubts the spirit in games against the top 6 do they? I'd say our biggest weakness is our inability to show game intelligence, to do what's necessary to kill a game off, that doesn't happen over night unfortunately, those expecting a quick fix will be in for a shock, as well as the Spuds play at the moment, they have had a further year to develop together, their team didn't develop overnight.
For me as long as we are mainly competitive and continue to develop as a team and an upward curve is visible then it will come good, whether this further transpires with trophies and the one we'd all savour the league title is anyone's guess.

18 May 2017 22:00:44
Pitney I get what your trying to say, similarly each league game is only worth 3 points for a win, problem with your point is that, we have instigated in the Boro game being bigger than what in normal circumstances it would be, the rewards for winning against not qualifying (or at least to the playoffs for CL) are vast and reality dictates that a win against Boro could mean roughly 10s of millions (complete guestimate), plus helping us attract players that should in theory help us develop along quicker (no guarantees, mostly theoretical), the importance of the match can't be underestimated, over emphasised or underplayed, facts are we win the game we have a better than average opportunity to make CL group stages.
Whichever way it goes, the table doesn't lie, teams finish where they deserve to, reason for this is how do we judge which teams are deserving of what? That's what the points are for! I will believe we've a chance even if 2 nil down with 5 to play, it's a funny old game.

19 May 2017 14:21:35
Spot on, Unconditionally. Game intelligence comes with time and experience and that will come provided the team is being improved and they are learning. keep in mind that this group of players have achieved nothing together hence, have no history nor certainties to fall back on.

This is why achieving CL footie tho not a trophy, will help the boys mentally and solidify that belief that they actually can achieve things together esp. when many including our fans gave the next to no chance of success.

Lavers, that will come with time as this squad is still developing and being built so winning the PL will happen only as quick as we can improve, which is always the goal. Getting all worked up over such things is bad for your health cos I don't get worked up over them. This season has been a great season in comparison to the last two esp. if we finish 3rd or 4th. You then build from there to get to where you wanna get to. Keep the faith, my friend.

18 May 2017 11:49:29
Hi Eds, i've got a question involving transfer dealings that are being investigated e. g the Pogba deal. I have read that in the Firmino deal Hoffenheim only ended up receiving around £5m of the total transfer fee in the end with the agent receiving a lot more, if this is true why would hoffenheim agree to this transfer and why would they allow the agent to get more than them? Sorry if your not able to answer, just curious as to how clubs allow this to happen.

{Ed002's Note - That is incorrect. The amount Hoffenheim were paid is a lot more than £5M. The reason for the investigation in to the transfer relates to a broader issue.}

18 May 2017 13:10:10
Care to share the broader issue 002? Or is this not the place.

{Ed002's Note - It is really not a matter to be discussed here.}

18 May 2017 07:50:54
G'day Reds. Who would stick with the line up from West Ham? If Firmino is fit does he come in? If so, who for? Ed001 if you're around, do you think Sturridge and Firmino can play up front together, meaning Origi would be benched?
I'd be happy with Couts staying a bit deeper and having Firmino and Sturridge up top.
On a side note, and going against what I think most on here would say, but I don't think we need to sign another keeper. Let Migs and Karius fight it out. Migs has improved no end, give him a vocal CB and I actually think he can get better. That said, Karius needs some games to show us what he is capable of, but how does Klopp juggle both possibilities?

{Ed001's Note - yes, I do think they could play together but never change a winning team unless you have to.}

18 May 2017 09:05:59
Isnt it a moot point with him missing training again its unlikely firmino will start. Plus i think Sturridge has a point to prove and i would stick with him and origi. I liked the formation, it suited the players we have fit and they played with more freedom. I know nothing is guaranteed in football but im quietly confident we can beat boro on sunday although i will still be very nervous. Its imperative that the crowd gets behind the team and play their role too.

18 May 2017 14:14:56
I think on the GK issue, we are suddenly in a nice very position. Klopp now has a choice between 3 keepers to make a choice of 2 for next season. Two keepers are full of confidence and one keeper (Karius) whose confidence needs to be worked on and raised. I'd just stay with the same situation. Keep the competition going between Mignolet and Karius and whoever is playing better keeps the number 1 spot. Keep Ward on loan, and recall him if there is a need. If it's not broken, don't fix it!

18 May 2017 19:20:56
For the first time since Reina left, the GK issue is no longer an issue provided both GK's are in healthy competition and a defensive setup is put in front of either when in goal, to protect them. Defending well is a team activity where everyone is required to do their jobs effectively.

It's easy to always blame the GK's (and sometimes that is true) when they concede but sometimes, they can be too exposed and if that keeps happening (like it did under BR, something Klopp has fixed to an extent), then don't blame him when he ships them in.

We have the 6th best defence in the PL which is a huge improvement from the last 3 season BUT a lot more work needs to be done cos the goals we concede are due to individual or collective brain farts, not due to us being cut open at will by the opposition.