Liverpool Banter Archive April 19 2017

 

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19 Apr 2017 22:04:46
Evening Eds and reds hope all is well

Was looking for your opinion of how much of an influence Zeljko Buvac actually has on the ongoings of the team including tactics, training, transfers and so on and what you think of him in a tactical capacity

Assistant managers never seem to get any credit or attention so would be interestingly to hear the ed's insight.

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{Ed002's Note - He has a good amount of influence and is relied upon by KK.}

20 Apr 2017 21:02:21
Cheers ed.


19 Apr 2017 17:56:53
Eds is Quincey Promes still of interest? I haven't seen a link or a mention of him since January but thought I'd ask if there's some potential there.

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{Ed002's Note - For now I would forget him.}

20 Apr 2017 06:32:47
Quincey who?


20 Apr 2017 12:06:14
Who is Rem?


19 Apr 2017 21:15:24
Quick poll who will win liverpools player of the year? For me Firmino.

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19 Apr 2017 21:27:14
Mane surely.


19 Apr 2017 21:31:15
Sadio Mane for me. He's added a new dimension to our game this year.


19 Apr 2017 21:45:38
Sadio Mane.


19 Apr 2017 23:18:31
Can understand Mane and Bobby votes. That said, I've had a growing appreciation of Gini and think he's a bit like Hendo in that you only realise how important they are to the team when they're out.


19 Apr 2017 23:46:59
I would of said coutinho because upto the Sunderland game he was the best player in the prem than he's got injured

Mane been really good and deserve it but this is going to sound stupid but wait for me it's James Milner.

James Milner for me has been are considered player and has not done a bad job .


19 Apr 2017 23:55:25
Mane by a street.


20 Apr 2017 00:00:22
I think when available Mane has been the best. But he missed a whole month on international duty and is now injured for our final run of games. For me you cannot pick player of the season until the last day.

If Coutinho scores 5 hatticks between now and the summer he would probably win it!

So far based on who has been consistently good and not missed large spells, I have been impressed mainly by Firmino for his class, Wijnaldum for his rapid adjustment to a new role in a new team at a whole new level of pressure, but also Milner for his professionalism.

I think the likes of Can, Henderson, Mane, Lallana, Coutinho and Origi have been great in spells but just missed too much game time or hit bad form (for various reasons) to be considered.

Right now if the season ended? Best player, Firmino. Best young player, Origi. Most improved, Can. Could all change yet though.


20 Apr 2017 00:05:45
Mane had already cemented himself as our most important player. He gets the award all week and twice on Sundays.


20 Apr 2017 11:26:39
Sadio Mane closely followed by the two Brazilians.


20 Apr 2017 11:38:50
MKS - Can as most improved? Thought you said your opinion was based over the season?! Can was worse than a shocking for three quarters of it and has had two or three good games recently and a couple of fair games.

Most improved for me would be TAA or Woodburn because they've gotten were they are on the verge of forcing their way into consideration for the first team. Most of the better players have been new acquisitions lol, most improved is difficult.


19 Apr 2017 19:11:20
Debating with a friend about the merits of firmino as a striker vs a number 10, got me thinking. Who do reckon presses better, Saurez or Firmino?

Personally think Saurez ran more but firmino is more affective. For an attacking player his tackling is top notch!

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19 Apr 2017 20:48:30
As good as Firmino is, there is nothing that he does better than Suarez.


19 Apr 2017 22:27:00
Spot on, Hijkle. Firmino is a machine BUT Suarez is on another level.


19 Apr 2017 23:12:26
Er, not biting opposing players?


19 Apr 2017 23:19:44
Lol wiwar, but with those gnashers I reckon he could better Suarez if he'd just apply himself.


19 Apr 2017 23:55:57
Got to agree with Rolandinho.

Firmino is a more intelligent player defensively. He knows when to press and when to drop off and he is composed and calculated in the tackle. I know stats can be misleading, but Firmino has won possession more times than any other forward in Europe. That says it all really. The whole point of pressing is to win the ball back so this is one statistic which is probably as relevant as they get.

Suarez was more like a relentless beast who just chased everything until he got it. He was also more rash though and prone to nastiness which saw him pick up a fair few bookings. Not that it wasn't effective by the way; defenders were terrified of him!

On the ball though, as good as Firmino is, nobody is better than Suarez in my opinion. Not even Messi or Ronaldo.


20 Apr 2017 01:18:24
Kind of off topic but I was dreaming a bit about how awesome we'd be if coutinho had suarez' strength and fighting sprirt and if firmino had sturridge's pace and finishing (from 2014 lol) . or maybe I just got reminiscing on a few years ago.!


20 Apr 2017 11:27:09
Suarez scores consistently.


19 Apr 2017 18:51:18
Ed01 mate I know that us Liverpool fans have been accused of being toxic and downright vile at times and I agree with that sentiment at times but then I hear the Madrid fans boo Ronaldo who is probably the world's best player . He may be self centred and selfish at the best of times but there is no doubting his consistentcy .

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{Ed001's Note - they are a toxic bunch at the best of times. Hateful club and it is no surprise they boo any of their players.}

19 Apr 2017 22:28:25
As an RM fan as well as LFC fan (LFC is my first love, tho), they boo anyone and no one is immuned to it. The players who play there know this and just get o with it.


20 Apr 2017 11:01:56
Real Madrid fans are like insufferable rich kids. The way they boo Ronaldo is like a rich kid having a tantrum because they got a white Lamborghini instead of a black one for their birthday.


19 Apr 2017 17:09:40
Ed001. With your vast knowledge and zest. If you were a betting man were would you put money on VVD playing his football next season? Just for fun mate.

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{Ed001's Note - I wouldn't. I don't really gamble anyway, but there is no way of knowing as no deal has been agreed or close to being agreed. A guess would be Man Utd, they are intending to sign at least one centre back, but it could easily be one of many as there are so few quality centre backs around that even he will be in demand.}

19 Apr 2017 19:14:19
Ok mate cheers for your input. Bit surprised at that as I can count at least 5 that they already have. I guess will see what develops then. Im thinking he will go for stupid money perhaps 45M+ which will be beyond us.

Thanks again mate for the reply.


19 Apr 2017 13:37:27
So.
What if the table looks like this after the last match of the season.

Chelsea
Tottenham
Man City
Man United
Liverpool

That would put us in 5th, but then, if united manage to win the europa league, Who will the fourth CL spot go to? 5th place? Cuz the winner of EL will get a CL spot nevertheless if they end up qualifying through their national tournament right?

Because if it does, I recon we still have a very good chance of qualifying even if we miss out on top 4.

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{Ed002's Note - That is not how it works. They don't give an additional place if the team has already qualified for the CL.}

19 Apr 2017 14:02:34
Maximum number of places in the CL is 5.

This is Top 3 plus up to two of the following in this order.

Winner of Champions League
Winner of Europa League
4th Place in Prem

The only way to finish outside the top 4 and qualify is to win one of the European Cups, that is all. Winning the Europa League does not give your country an extra space from their league.


19 Apr 2017 14:06:01
In that scenario United go straight into group stage without 4th round play-off.


19 Apr 2017 14:25:53
Remember - the rule works that no-one else can put you in the CL. You have to get 4th and if you dont, you have to win the CL or EL. There is no way in that doesn't require you hitting one of the 3 qualification entry points.


19 Apr 2017 14:26:28
So if Utd win Europa and we finish 4th then we are in the CL but need to get through a qualifying round?


{Ed002's Note - Yes.}

19 Apr 2017 17:00:09
Oh. Well just thought it might work that way, let's seal that top 4 spot with a couple of wins then!


19 Apr 2017 19:50:47
Actually the individual FA's decide who they assign to the champions league places, but generally it's understood to be the top 4 in this country.


19 Apr 2017 23:59:14
That's a new one on me Ron.

I thought the champions league was for the top finishing teams in all leagues?

So in theory The SFA could nominate Rangers instead of Celtic?

I wouldn't want to be on a stag weekend in Glasgow when that was announced. You'd be safer in Syria.


20 Apr 2017 00:03:24
That's it TabascoBoy. I've had enough of your sauce.


20 Apr 2017 01:21:23
The champions league is for teams who won their league and the next 1, 2, or 3 other losers who didnt. oh and I suppose the champions of europa too.


20 Apr 2017 12:52:52
Apparently true Dermot, I remember it from 2006 when we were holders and not in the top 4. At one point it was between us and Everton and UEFA were going to let the FA sort it out. Eventually a sensible solution was found.
I think the FA's would usually have indicated which positions would get a place before a season kicks off, tic avoid any mess later on.


19 Apr 2017 11:10:35
I like the idea of inaki williams but for next season i would rather liverpool spend money only on 2-3 players but established players with proven quality

Not 42 mil for a potential player.

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19 Apr 2017 11:34:08
Inaki is an extremely over rated player. Has all the attributed to be top notch but his application and end product is shocking. The club wants Brandt and should do what it takes to sign him.


19 Apr 2017 17:41:40
Spot on, Buzzer. Very overrated player and NOT what we need. Brandt is better, more experienced, more guile to his game and costs way less that Williams. Also remember, Bilbao are a NIGHTMARE to negotiate with. Brandt is out main target and we should go get him like we got Mane for whatever the price was.


19 Apr 2017 18:52:04
Don;t Athletic Bilbao only use players from the Basque region of Spain? If that's the case, no wonder it's so hard to deal with them, they have a massively limited pool of players to choose from.


{Ed001's Note - just from Basque origins mate, so they also have a limited pool of overseas players, whose families came from the Basque country. You are right though, they have a very limited pool of players and no need of money as they have so few they can spend it on.}

19 Apr 2017 20:45:43
Why do they do that ed? seems strange to just hire your workforce based on where they come fqrom.


{Ed001's Note - because they are a symbol of independence for the Basques.}

19 Apr 2017 23:23:43
Wow, never knew that about Bilbao. Hat's off to them. Refreshing to hear about values and loyalty in the money hungry world of pro football.


19 Apr 2017 21:41:52
Considering their limited pool, they do an excellent job of developing talent.


{Ed001's Note - I think they might well have good cause to claim they have the best youth development system in world football.}

19 Apr 2017 21:48:16
Out of interest ed001, do you know of any other teams that do the same these days?
The only way we could do that is if we really did have a team of carraghers 😂.


{Ed001's Note - no, though Sociedad did so too before John Toshack took charge. Now they are a little more open, though they will also look for a Basque connection before making a signing.}

20 Apr 2017 02:38:00
Or racist, depends on your perspective!


19 Apr 2017 08:24:29
A question for the Eds if you have time:
I really like Origi and think he has the potential to get better and better. But (as much as I hate to say it) when I watch Marcus Rashford I realise that Origi isn't quite there yet. Origi is 22 whilst Rashford is only 18.
Do you think that Rashford is a special talent or is it just youngsters developing at a different rate?

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{Ed002's Note - You cannot compare players because of their ages - it really doesn't make any difference until they are playing regularly and have experience.}

19 Apr 2017 08:35:46
Didn't Origi also get moved around positions a bit more, especially playing as a wide attacker a lot when we loaned him back initially?


19 Apr 2017 09:07:46
Rashford also plays wide to accomodate Zlatan quite often.


19 Apr 2017 09:33:20
Rashford is a very talented player.

Origi does not play the same as MR though. His style of play is about using his physical presence more to hold the ball up, win knockdowns and bring others into play. Whereas MR is about running in behind and stretching defences. DO can do that to an extent but not as well as MR.

Both are good players. Worth noting DO has more goals than MR this season.


19 Apr 2017 11:05:47
Completely different types of players, absolutely no basis for comparison.


19 Apr 2017 12:26:07
Also consider that some of the players that was excellent at 19/ 20 then fade out when they get to 25. while age is a factor, you cannot compare a player because of their age, there are so many more important factor then age, unless your talking about 40 year old players. your Totti's aren't a common thing.


19 Apr 2017 12:33:06
This is like comparing Drogba with Owen.


19 Apr 2017 16:44:30
Feel Anthony Martial is more complete than both but he doesn't get a game at MU.


19 Apr 2017 17:45:20
Not in the slightest, Sami. Martial is more a winger than a striker while Origi is a CF, period hence comparing him to Martial or Rashford (who is originally a winger) makes no sense.

Origi has all the tools to be a great CF. Pace, power, good feet, aerial ability, very physical and good dribbling skills, ALL the things Martial and Rashford lack to play the CF position effectively. As a result, Origi cannot play effectively out wide as he does not possess the instincts or tools of a winger.


20 Apr 2017 16:31:14
Origi and Rashford are two different types of attacker, Rashford is really reliant on his pace and reminds me a lot of Welbeck, I appreciate he is still very young, but the lad does tend to need 3-4 chances to score, give Origi those chances and I'm confident Origi would double Rashford's conversion rate.

Personally think Origi is a huge talent who is going to get better and better, the question is whether that will be with us. I firmly believe that if Origi played for someone like Swansea/ Southampton where he would play week in week out and their game built around getting service to him, he'd be right up there with Lukaku and Kane for the top scorer in the League.

I think Origi has a big decision coming for his future, I don't believe he will ever push Firmino out of the central role of the front 3 so does he stay and be a sub/ cover or does he leave and become a regular for someone else?


18 Apr 2017 23:09:57
Hey ed's I understand if this can't be posted but I'm intrigued to know your opinions and others on the site on the standards of refs at the top end of the game.

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{Ed002's Note - The standard of refereeing has been acknowledged to be poor over recent years. I don't watch much football but it is often mentioned. Personally I don't think video refereeing is the answer, but an additional official linked by radio high up in the stands might well be.}

19 Apr 2017 08:00:55
Anyone who thinks referees in EPL are poor should go and watch some league 1 and 2 games. Ranges from the very rare very good through to far too many that are woeful. Mistakes that only show up from the benefit of a dozen slow mo replays are excusable but being totally inconsistent about free kicks, advantage, bookings etc ruins games. I've seen far too many games where refs and ARs have wound up the teams and fans and created the problems they then berate the players over. outside EPL right down to grass roots the better refs tend to be the younger ones.


19 Apr 2017 08:05:55
What standards are we comparing them to?
What criteria are we using?

Are we talking about accuracy of decisions or are we talking about "handling of the game"?
I think if you look at the number of decisions in a game the percentage of correct decisions is high. I think the refs are fitter these days and able to keep up with the game more. I think they are under more scrutiny these days than 20 years ago and they have more directives to follow. 20 years ago a lot was down to interpretation of the ref. Now it's all standardised by the powers that be.

If SkyTV had to show every refereeing decision in the same detail, people would be a lot more appreciative of the demands. But Sky only show the contentious decisions in minute detail.

I'm not a ref. My old man (RIP) was a ref in the good old days. I don't think he'd do it these days.
Standard of refs vs standard of players or managers or pundits? I'd take the refs over all of them.
Can they improve? Of course, but they need support to do it.


19 Apr 2017 08:20:53
Good points Ron and having slated them one thing I'd say doesn't help is most fans are contributing to the problem. Refs who don't communicate get slated and those who do get skated. The number of shouts for handball you hear every match where the definition of handball clearly doesn't apply is comical. I honestly think the 4th official also calling stuff like ARs and use of replays would help even if it just showed fans and players how crap the game would become if refs were allowed to take the time Sky pundits get to dissect every piece of play before they gave a decision.


19 Apr 2017 08:47:11
Thanks Ron. It was a good read, gave me another perspective to look at.


19 Apr 2017 09:10:06
Ron, the standard isn't high. 80%, considering how many decisions are ridiculously easy, is low. Refs, considering the importance of their job, their professionalism etc should be getting so many decision right that major incorrect decisions should be a big talking point, not a 5 minute reel per game.


19 Apr 2017 09:34:04
If you think it's easy, the simple answer is to try doing it.
How many professionals do you know who have dozens of slow mo high def TV cameras pointing at them for 90 minutes of their week with millions of people watching?

80%? Don't know where you get that number from.


19 Apr 2017 10:42:11
I'm against video refereeing, I think tend to believe that the game in the stadium should reflect the game played in the parks. Besides, who doesn't enjoy talking about contentious decisions?


19 Apr 2017 10:44:43
standards aside, the interpretations that we see in the game itself are not even consistent. a push in this game is a penalty, while another is not.

a rough lunging tackle is a yellow in a normal game, and not in derbies? just because its a derby, it doesn't mean its a game with a different rule. i understand that standards could be different, could change from year to year, following reviews and changes should be made when it is needed, for the rules to remain relevant and of course, to protect the players.

but in the game itself there must be a way for all these decisions to be at the very least, highly consistent. without videos and what not, you'd expect them to miss some and i get it. again, id like to repeat, its inconsistencies of the decision made from similar incidents in different games that bothers me. i know its difficult, but it doesn't mean we can't point that out.


19 Apr 2017 13:51:12
I'm really pleased video reffing is coming, it will allow us to focus on what's important, the game, rather than talking about refs all the time.


19 Apr 2017 14:32:08
For me it's more the case of they don't seem to be in a position where they have to explain a decision or be actually held accountable for a poor performance. They have few repercussions if they make mistakes so there seems to be no incentive to improve.


19 Apr 2017 14:36:02
Ron - first of all it's an example number and you well know it, so stop being pedantic for no reason.

Secondly, no one said it was easy. Nor did I say I could do it. But I also can't build a car, doesn't mean I don't have a right to say something about my car breaking down 20 minutes after driving off the forecourt! If the job is too hard for them then they need to stop doing it, if they want to tell us they can do it then cut the excuses and do it.

Refs at the professional level are highly paid professionals, they need to be good enough to earn that and the fact that there are cameras pointing at them doesn't dissolve them of blame. They get too many major decisions wrong per game and it's having a direct influence on both the outcomes of games and the safety of players. And if they need help to do it properly, sodding well get together and campaign from the stance of experts for help! If they spent half the energy they spend moaning about a lack of respect for refs on improving their performances, the game would be in a much better state on field (although I do apprecaite the need to refs respect at a lower/ grassroots level)


19 Apr 2017 17:55:03
At least in the PL, the refs are awful. Worse, they make mistakes that are detrimental to both teams BUT that is seen as being good officiating. Awful, awful, awful.


19 Apr 2017 19:54:39
They are not highly paid in the industry they work in.
They do not get so many decisions wrong.
You are being deceived by the likes of SkyTV who only show contentious moments in contentious decisions.
Refs make thousands of decisions in a game, you just aren't aware of them.


19 Apr 2017 20:30:24
Ron did you happen to watch real Madrid v Bayern Munich last night a team went out of the quarter final of the champions league due entirely to the ref and his assistants with an outrageous sending off
and two offside goals that were not even hard to spot. this has cost Bayern millions of Euros and a possible place in the final.

In refs defence i do think since the assistant refs were given more powers they are so busy trying to spot things going on in the game than doing their job looking for off sides leaving the ref to take the blame because of a radio in his ear and they never get brought up on bad decisions like last night.


19 Apr 2017 20:55:35
If you say so Ron. But I am aware of them. And when in the name of some fictional game management they allow dangerous tackles to go unpunished right in front of them, when linesmen fail to keep up with the game and are left guessing about important offside decisions, when they have unobstructed views of handballs so ignore the rulebook and start making subjective decisions about intentions - they are not doing a good job, no matter how many minor decisions they make during a game.


19 Apr 2017 21:25:05
they should run a trial were there is a ref in each half, so keeping up with play would not be a problem, and each ref would be under less pressure .


19 Apr 2017 22:55:56
I didn't watch Madrid V Bayern so I take your word on that.
Refs are simply there to implement the laws of the game.
Players don't have to put dangerous tackles in or dive when there's no contact.
Players are very highly paid professionals who are coached by very highly paid managers to try and deliberately gain an advantage by deceiving the referee.
You blame the ref for getting it wrong, how about the players and managers take some responsibility for playing by the rules? Obviously offsides are different but these calls are made by referee assistants.


{Ed007's Note - Did you see the penalty against Celtic at the weekend, Ron? One of THE worst decisions I've ever seen at any level of football....

20 Apr 2017 00:04:34
Ron makes some very good points. Loss aversion is a basic fact of human psychology, i.e. we react far more negatively to bad outcomes than we do positively to good outcomes. It's inevitable that refs get slated for poor decisions and we overlook the many good decisions they make.


20 Apr 2017 06:41:45
All 2 refs on the pitch will do is create a higher chance of inconsistency. And when i mentioned that lack of consistency before I meant in the same game from the same ref. Doesn't help that the view is if they're a poor ref then drop them down a level cos the leagues below the EPL don't need good refs. The standards need to be set across the leagues.


20 Apr 2017 10:46:52
Wow, that is a woeful ref in that Celtic game no contact at all what a joke.


 
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