Liverpool Banter Archive November 20 2015

 

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20 Nov 2015 19:56:48
Feel sorry for the u21s today getting battered by benfica who are so superior it's crazy basically playing our reserve u21s! Dunn trickett smith ohanlon firth none of them good enough and to top it off Enrique. Poor lads. Let's hope benfica let them borrow the ball in the second half.

Believable2 Unbelievable2

20 Nov 2015 21:58:17
You'll get that when you chop and change under 21's we've got many of our good potential players out on loan, and are looking to bring through under 18's, many might not have played with 1 another. You have to weigh up options of whether the players will benefit from playing together, or going out and getting 1st team football, as it stands for me personally I believe that, because BR neglected to develop our youngsters at under 18-21 for 3.5 years we're a little behind where we need to be with some under 18-22 players, so we've shotgun loaned out a few to try and get them 1st team ready.

Hopefully the team will take lessons from the game. 1 or 2 players at that level can absolutely change it though, Loftus cheeks destoyed us pretty much by himself 2 weeks ago when Chelsea u21's BEAT US 4-0.

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21 Nov 2015 05:24:53
This season has started pretty poorly for the U21s compared to the last 3 and Boba us right that a big part of it's down to players having had little opportunity to play together and develop as we chop and change and and payers out on unnecessary loan. However, there are some players in that team who have not progressed for 2 years.

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20 Nov 2015 22:17:36
Bob

I really find it difficult to understand how BR is responsible for it all together? What you mean by him neglecting the U21? The academy as it stands is a separate entity from the first team all equipped with coaches and people.

Now care to explain what should Klopp do in order to get this steady?

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21 Nov 2015 11:46:31
Boba was pretty clear - Rodgers ignored the academy and Ed001 has confirmed this before. How is this a difficult thing to understand Harry?

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21 Nov 2015 12:08:13
Not trying to justify anyone's actions but which premier league managers don't "ignore their academy"?

There aren't many teams that focus on bringing their academy players through and I think it's because of the short term thinking of chairmen and fans alike.
No manager wants a great team in 5 years time because whilst their waiting they lose their job.

For me it's an argument for a DoF, or whatever you want to call it. Someone who is in charge of football strategy for the whole club, not someone who will lose their job if the first team lose 5 games.

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21 Nov 2015 13:49:48
Klopp doesn't ignore the academy, he's been to watch 3 loaness i'm aware of, asked other loanees to come back and train, when there's been a break, to look at them.

Klopp is actually bothering to see the products our academy is producing, and using them more often, see chirivella, rossitter, texeira randall and brannigan all getting game time.

Not all academy players will come through, that wasn't the point I was making though. Brodge never attended academy games, never went to watch our loan players. Klopp did that withing his first 2 weeks.

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21 Nov 2015 14:13:06
Well Harry since you asked, I was addressing Ron in my previous reply.

It's a managers job to manage the entire ''entity'' of the team, to bother looking at youths, which Klopp is currently doing the BR neglected. You are meant to see how loans are progressing, maybe go watch them, or asks scouts to repor, you're also meant to send them to teams they will get game time. None of this occurred over BR.

Some mess ups include, Ilori to Villa, Wisdom to WBA and Nowrich (he replaced a loaned player with a loanee) DUMB in my book.

To get the ship steady and with what seems to be happening. Klopp should sit players down (NOT LIE TO THEM like BR did with people like Kelly, Sinclair Ilori etc) and tell them how it is after seeing them play on loan, under 21,or cup games, whether they have a future, or whether for them it's better to move on.

Look for good clubs to loan players, I think a fair bit of success can be garnered from loaning to scotland prem or to championship, then possibly look to prem level for more senior players. Look for clubs that maybe play a high press football, attacking minded, or are looking to have a centreback for a year rather than just a squad filler as they fight relegation, a squad with promotion hopes, who might turn to you player, to help get them into the premiership.

Also don't loan IBE out, let him play well for Derby, then look to replace him half way through the season bringing in a more senior winger.

I could go on and on, as to what I would do, but I feel what I've written should be a start to satisfy your question. (They're mainly criticisms of BR's mismanagement)

I can only go off what I've seen and been told by managers and coaches as to their best systems they've used. But if you want more depth, I;m sure I can write more, or maybe ed001 might take time out in a podcast to describe a preferable loan system/under21 policy.

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21 Nov 2015 11:58:44
As it stands, BR holds the record of playing more youngsters than any other manager in our recent history.

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21 Nov 2015 14:27:13
Bob are you trying to tell us that the manager decides which club a loanee goes to. I don't think so, it will be decided by how much money the loaned club are willing to pay. It has always been about money and it always will be.

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{Ed001's Note - you really have no idea! It is very rarely about a loaning fee for youngsters at all. Nonsense talk.}

21 Nov 2015 15:23:04
EG not sure wher that fact comes from? Are you talking about debuts?
There's a difference between giving a debut and a sustained period of games over a season in terms of player development, what's the point in giving 20 different debuts, to only never use to players again, I;d much rather several youngsters get a run of 10 or so games in the season, than 20 different youth players getting 2 games each.

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21 Nov 2015 15:04:37
It has nothing to do with the money, But there should be clubs willing to take the players.

Apart from couple of players we are way way below par in terms of quality. Look at Chelsea, Their youth would walk into our first team midfield with ease.

Klopp would struggle to find the so called RIGHT CLUBS for our loanes.

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20 Nov 2015 18:55:38
Is anyone else tired of reading media stories on Firmino that all seem to conclude or suggest Firmino has been a "flop" or "underwhelming" or one of the "worst" signings of the summer. Especially bad are the stories comparing Firmino to Depay, who has genuinely struggled despite receiving every opportunity to succeed by LvG, as both "struggling" signings. Today, I saw a ridiculous graphic comparing Sterling's output to Firmino, that did not account for minutes played.

Such total media laziness.

Let's break it all down once again.

First, we now know that Firmino was a transfer signing, and that Rodgers apparently had to be "convinced" to agree to the move; he wanted assurances, apparently, that the club acquiring Firmino would not impact his main target Benteke.

So, Rodgers had no clue about Firmino.

Second, this reality was confirmed by how Rodgers treated Firmino early of. If not bad, then it was at least crude indifference. In Firmino's first two "games", he was subbed on at 77min (Stoke) and then subbed on at 69min against Bournemouth. So, in his first two appearances, he saw a total of approx 35min. In many of these lazy media stories, these are counted as "games".

Then in his first start he played very well against Arsenal, and for this he was rewarded by Rodgers by being played out of position as wingback against West Ham on August 29th and Man U on Sept 12th.

Third, Rodgers then benches him against Bordeaux and then against Norwich goes back to subbing him late -- at 71min. Again, another one of Firmino's "games", he sees around 20min of action.

Fourth, Rodgers starts Firmino against Carlisle but is injured not far into the match. When he returns in October, Klopp is the new manager.

Now, under Klopp, in his first start against Bournemouth, he plays in his traditional no 10 role, and runs the show. 5 shots, 2 on target, multiple chances created. And he really should have an assist on Ibe's goal, as it was his flick on that sent Tex in on goal. And then key assists, and multiple shots and chances created, in his two other starts against Chelsea and Rubin.

So, to sum up, Firmino is first benched and then played out of position by indifferent Rodgers. Then Firmino is injured. He returns under Klopp, who plays him in his central attacking traditional role, and he is showing his class, potential, and contributing to the team.

IMHO, we should view Firmino through the lens of his work since returning from injury under Klopp. The rest was Rodgers goofiness.

Believable19 Unbelievable4

20 Nov 2015 22:10:39
1. He came to LFC with an injury, and was being eased into the team

2.he certainly did NOT play wingback EVER for LFC 4 we played a flat 4 vs United and Westham

3.pretty sure Firmino picked up an on and off back injury for about a month.

BR wasn't a great manager, but a lot of that was drivel.

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{Ed002's Note - Firmino was not injured when he arrived - if anything he was not 100% fit and that is a common problem after the summer break. He is a decent player but expectations are so high because Liverpool overpaid for him - to the tune that he was an effective financial swap wor Sterling. He'll settle when the team gets a bit of a shuffle - the club is a little lop-sided still, but I rather think he wioll be fine.}

20 Nov 2015 23:24:17
I was at the West Ham game and the poor lad didn't seem to know what he was doing defensively. I pointed out to my son that he can't of been instructed in training as to what was expected of him cause he didn't know where he was supposed to be and kept looking at other players for instruction. Despite this he still had the one moment of class that got the crown off there seat apart from Lovrens absolute howler that is.

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21 Nov 2015 02:58:36
Agree people are too quick to judge, he's a talent but in a new country/setup and wasnt used in his best position at first. I think he's going to be fantastic for us later this season and he has played as well as could be expected so far.

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21 Nov 2015 05:30:43
Given time and opportunity, Firmino will be fine I think. Mesut Ozil was a flop last season, but is the messiah according to the media this season. However, Ed002 makes a very good point in that expectations of Firmino are way over the top. An example, I remember EMS saying something along that lines in the summer that he expects Firmino to get between 15-20 goals for Liverpool this season.

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21 Nov 2015 07:55:03
All will be forgotten when he gets the winner vs City.

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21 Nov 2015 08:47:05
Injury or fitness, There was a reason he wasn't playing and it wasn't because BR was simply refusing to play him.

I agree Firmino will become could, it doesn't detract from the fact the OP spouted utter nonsense about playing him wing back and only playing him here and there in brief spells because he didn't like they boy.

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21 Nov 2015 01:47:32
Bobaton:

1. Firmino wasn't injured when he arrived. The excuse given by Rodgers for not starting him, and then subbing him late, was that he wasn't "match fit" because he had played in the Copa. This seemed a thin excuse given Coutinho had also played in the Copa, but started for Liverpool regardless.

2. Did you watch the United and West Ham games? We played 4-3-3, but it was so pointless and negative, it was really 4-5-1. Go check out a heatmap for Ings and Firmino's touches as the wide players against United. They were tracking back deep constantly, and had only 4 touches in the box between them. They were effectively wingbacks.

3. Really? First time I've heard of this. No report I've seen has suggested it.

4. You keep using the word "drivel". Not sure that word means what you think it means.

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21 Nov 2015 13:46:15
you can disagree with what i ut and agree with your own posts as much as you want, fine not injured but lacking fitness, the club made people aware of it, so did the eds.

If we played 4-3-3 how did we play wingbacks and how did firmino fit into that role in the forard 3? Nonesense from you. you're expected to still defend as the wide of 3 forward any way.

Regards to not being aware of Firminos back injury, you should probably google it mate, he had a back injury on and off for a month and struggled to be 1st team ready, it was widely reported.

I keep using the word drivel because you are spouting nonesense. and drivel is a synonym for that. You can ''disagree'' wih this post several times it doesn't make it any less informative for you.

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21 Nov 2015 16:07:13
Bobatron:

We played a 4-3-3 in both. Against WH we switched to the 3-4-3 late in the match, after some substitutions. If you don't know what formation we played, you didn't watch the games. And so if you didn't watch the games, then I'm not sure why you're even arguing the point.

Re: Firmino injured his back falling awkwardly in the Carlisle game. He was substituted at 35min and it was later reported he cracked a bone in his back. Have you ever heard of an "on again, off again" broken back? Not even i think Rodgers would be craven enough to start Firmino if he had a broken back.

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21 Nov 2015 16:54:03
Bob:

PS: my original point wasn't that Rodgers simply "didn't like" Firmino.

But that Rodgers simply didn't favor him, and preferred others over him, including Milner and Lallana.

We all know Rodgers largely favoured his signings over transfer committee acquisitions.

After watching Lovren start game after game over Sakho under Rodgers' reign of lunacy, are you seriously going to suggest otherwise? That it's "nonsense" Rodgers favored his acquisitions and didn't rate, or was ignorant about, Firmino?

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20 Nov 2015 18:01:32
I am really frustrated at some of the loan moves for some of our younger players at the minute.

Andre wisdom is at Norwich at barely gets a start. Which is really strange considering their other options. They are really weak at the back and someone who could have really helped out considering we have no other senior full back to cover/challenge clyne.

Ojo is in and out of the wolves side, he is undoubtedly talented, young players are inconsistent this had to be expected from wolves, and we aren't exactly packed with wingers the only one I can think of is ibe, and with benteke in the middle you would like to see a winger on the pitch.

Canon is on the bench a lot for Brentford, it's a shame balotelli is only temporary, Lloyd Jones probably the club's most promising centre back is shipped of to the league one train wreck that is Blackpool markovic I feel for, he wasn't given a real chance in his proper position and unfortunately I don't see a future for him at the club, I hope he proves me wrong.

I am sure the posters are aware of the others thanks to Carras updates.

I have obviously only touched on a couple of players but you could argue a lot of them are similar and my hope for the future is that the club seriously consider the loans carefully and make them right for player personally. For us fans there isn't anything better than seeing a player come through from the academy.

Believable2 Unbelievable3

20 Nov 2015 19:13:32
Have you ever thought that the reason these players are not getting much game time is because they are not good enough.

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20 Nov 2015 20:05:36
Thanks Debbie,

64 I think there are a few variables to consider. In wisdoms case Norwich are fighting for survival. At times like that it is hard to trust a young loanee, no matter how good they are.
Players will only improve with game time, the club should seek a club that will provide regular game time before loaning them out. If the player isn't good enough for that club then we shouldn't loan them there in the first place.

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20 Nov 2015 20:48:22
Wisdom is 22/23/24 he's not a kid he's just an average and a below par right back. If he was the best right back or centre back in training he'd be playing because that's what you do in a relegation scrap you pick the best players you've got.

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20 Nov 2015 21:22:15
Debbiedoesgallas Norwich are so weak at the back that they conceded one goal at Anfield without A W explain?

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20 Nov 2015 23:51:04
How many did they concede against a very poor Newcastle without him? One game isn't representitive of a season though. My argument isn't specifically with wisdom although in my opinion he is a much better player than whittaker who is the player he is competing with. As well as the fact that my main point was that we should just send these players out to get them out we should send them out to benefit the player. And right now are wisdom or Norwich benefiting from the loan?

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20 Nov 2015 23:53:30
Carra has made the exact point I was trying to make above. The only way any of the players are going to improve is to get game time. We shouldn't let them leave if we don't think they can get it.

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21 Nov 2015 05:37:57
IMO, the likes of Ilori, Wisdom, Vougorux, McLaughlin, Ward, Yesil and Stewart should leave LFC permanently as they are all at an age where they need to start playing regular football, and I can't see them getting that at Liverpool unless they show a huge improvement.

Jordan Williams, Lloyd Jones, Seyi Ojo and Ryan Kent were ready for a loan in the summer, but maybe LFC got them into the wrong clubs.

Harry Wilson, Sergi Canos should never have been send off on loan after half a season for the U21s.

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20 Nov 2015 20:17:38
I just don't understand the fuss on Wisdom. Why is he being over-hyped constantly. Looks very much like Richards. Huge physique but that's it.
Just my opinion.

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20 Nov 2015 17:51:07
It seems as though we have the old Lucas back.
I hope he keeps Ya Ya in his pocket tomorrow.
Come on you Red Men.

Believable7 Unbelievable0

20 Nov 2015 19:27:01
Of course there not good to be regular starters at clubs so high up in the leagues, there to young and inconsistent.

I dint understand why there isn't a gradual loan system.

17-league 2 (not relegation fighters but mid table teams) will teach them the dark side of football, where you can be out of work and wages ag anytime. No luxury training fields. Proper reffing, proper tackles, crap pitches.

18-league 1

19/20 championship

20/21 - see there level and depending either championship or premiership.

21/22 - access for sale or introduction to the first team.

We shouldn't ever loan to teams fighting relegation or with managers who don't implore what our current manager does.

A good team for wisdom this year would of been Burnley. Dyche I a hard working coach, a good team. Hr would of got plenty of game time.

I also dint understand why we don't do free loans where we pay the wages. I get that uf a club has nothing invested in the player then they night not okay them but if we found a great place for a player for example Tex at Brighton, there budget night not allow for him but hw would get games and from now until January it could be invaluable.

Just my thoughts.

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20 Nov 2015 23:08:57
Wrong post, Paulo.

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20 Nov 2015 11:03:39
Hi all Ed's and Red's. Really looking forward to the game I'll be cross eyed watching the game cause I'm on night duty but it'll be worth it. Anyway enough of my ranting I just want to say any of the reserve's/underage players probably now feel they actually have a very fair chance of breaking into the first team. Now I'm going to say who will make it and who won't but they know that JK will have a good look at them and after that it's down to them which is all any player wants. Also I'm thrilled about Brad Smith coming back I'd love to see him cover for Moreno.

Believable2 Unbelievable0

20 Nov 2015 09:16:28
{Ed's Note - We have posted a new article entitled, Weekend Premier League Preview

Believable0 Unbelievable0

20 Nov 2015 11:22:54
Eds, it is noted in the article that Sakho could start? I know Klopp said his injury is not as bad as first thought, but really?

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{Ed002's Note - Sakho will not be starting.}

20 Nov 2015 17:39:42
Even a sub ed or is he weeks away?

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{Ed002's Note - If Liverpool wish to use players who are not fit then they can.}

20 Nov 2015 21:25:09
Sahko ain`t coming back until next year.

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20 Nov 2015 23:29:19
They have said 26th December on physioroom.

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21 Nov 2015 08:32:56
Hahaha! What's 5 days more added to 26th of Decembe? Just roll on next year's calendar.

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20 Nov 2015 07:29:27
For the first time under Jurgen Klopp, Jose Enrique is back in training alongside Brad Smith and Allan.

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20 Nov 2015 17:53:51
I think Jurgen has hacked his Instagram account and shamed him into earning a living!

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21 Nov 2015 00:13:03
Enrique was injured?!?!? No way.

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19 Nov 2015 21:22:17
Hi eds,

With the man city game at the weekend I'd be interested in what you've made of Sterling so far this season, has he surpassed your expectations?

Regardless, hoping for a great match and result.

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{Ed001's Note - he has not really reached the expectations I have of him, to be perfectly honest. The loss of Silva has hit City hard and made it a lot more difficult for the likes of Sterling and De Bruyne to really shine.}

20 Nov 2015 09:41:24
Hopefully we can stop Graham from having a good game at the weekend.

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{Ed001's Note - Graham? Oh how I love autocorrect! It changes the meaning of so many things.}

20 Nov 2015 10:24:43
I don't think you caught the joke there ed001. You're getting old.

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20 Nov 2015 13:17:13
He already scored six goals for them in all competitions and starts almost every game. Few assists as well. I wondet how many people here still think. we did the deal of our life selling him for this price. I still think if Klopp would have been appointed in the summer we may have still have Sterling now.

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20 Nov 2015 15:42:10
im still waiting for Ibe to show the same amount of talent Sterling has like the experts on this page claimed.

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20 Nov 2015 16:10:46
I'm still waiting for ibe to be given the full 18 months before sterling had a good end to the season and then a further year were he wasnt fantastic 😊.

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20 Nov 2015 17:25:41
Ed001, Graham is what Klopp called Raheem in the press conference.

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{Ed001's Note - I haven't seen the press conference. I use the international breaks to take a break from anything footie on the TV. Otherwise you can get a bit overloaded on it.}

20 Nov 2015 15:55:50
Sterling has been doing well including a hattrick. I am not sure, what more the lad has to do to win some people here.

Dbol. That's classic mate.

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21 Nov 2015 08:42:41
When you get Old mate, It will happen @Dbol when you get old.

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