Liverpool Banter Archive December 22 2016

22 Dec 2016 20:35:46
Short Estonian documentary on Ragnar Klavan. It's in Estonian but has English subtitles. I found it really interesting, he seems genuinely happy to be at Liverpool and has a great work ethic. Although he seems to admit that Klopp got in his ear a little, hope it doesn't cause any more issues for us.

23 Dec 2016 11:53:09
Nice one, thanks for posting. Couldn't see any problems there at all. Cheers.

22 Dec 2016 18:56:49
Season`s Greetings, Fellow Ed`s and reds!


I would like to start a discussion about something that has been bothering me regarding how Jurgen Klopp is being regarded as a tactician by the media.

He is by no means perfect and neither is his system (s) and he will make his mistakes and that is fine by me provided he is doing a fine job which we all can agree that he`s doing. However, I have a problem with the way other managers and those in the media view him as a tactician.

I was watching a clip on youtube about him and it was mentioned that a "high level manager" doesn`t think that he`s a "tactically sophisticated" manager and that he only relies on his charisma and motivational skills to get results. Can I just say that that is utter nonsense and an insult to the things he has achieved as a manager. I don`t care how good of a motivator or public speaker you are, if you can`t coach, manage players, have great man management skills, know your tactics in and out, all the things Klopp possesses, then you will NEVER succeed like he has as a manager. Has he lost games, finals or leagues? Sure. But you can only lose if you put yourself in the position to win.

There is also this idea that both Pep and Mou are better than him tactically. To me judging by his head to head record with them, that is patently false. Vs Mou, Klopp has 3 wins, 2 draw and 1 loss in 6 games. Vs Pep, he has 4 wins and 4 losses. In fact, Klopp is the only manager to have inflicted more losses on Pep and Mou than any other manager, period. It took Mou SEVENTEEN games to beat Pep 3 times while Klopp did it in 8. So how is he inferior to both "Super managers" tactically if he has the best record against them? Or are tactics no longer involved when he wins. This is what I think is an unfair judgement on Klopp`s tactical ability, IMO.

Look at the way we play, fore example. People just think we press teams and move the ball around and score goals, no sweat. No tactical structure nor organization involved obviously, right? WRONG! That is bullocks. If you read articles of how the players train and the attention to detail involved in the movement of our players, then believe me, the man is a class act, tactically. Check the BVB game as well. When we were down 3-1, Klopp switched from a 4-2-3-1 to a 4-4-2 diamond by subbing off Can and Firmino and putting on Allen and Studge. This is where the game was won tactically and Tuchel (his pupil) got schooled as he had no way to responding to that tactical change and the onslaught we unleashed upon them. After the game, I can`t remember if any media outlet or pundit ever referring to my observation. All I heard was Klopp`s ability to motivate and channel his energy onto the Anfield crowd and to his players. Nonsense! Had Mou or Pep done this, we would have never heard the last of it. Here lies my anger for not recognizing his tactical astuteness.


I think Klopp is a brilliant manager and a very good tactician and the pundits or the media either can`t see it or simply think he is not great tactically as they think anyone can do and achieve what he has by just getting a group of players to run around like headless chickens YET at the same time, being very intelligent in their way of playing which has gotten him 2 BL titles and a CL runner up, and brought us two finals in his first 8 months and second in the league. Master motivator, My Foot! Please, join in the conversation, lads.

{Ed025's Note - i enjoyed that hamilton, good post mate which is easy for me to say as im a massive klopp fan..

22 Dec 2016 19:24:08
Glad you approve, Ed. it was just something that I needed to put out there for discussion as I think he`s being unfairly treated by the pathetic English media.

{Ed025's Note - i always give credit where its due hamilton..

22 Dec 2016 20:47:57
Totally agree Hamilton mate and yes it had to be said.

22 Dec 2016 21:17:55
Well put, don't forgetthe fact that he never had the funds that were available to pep and jose.

22 Dec 2016 23:08:48
Don't think we need to bring money into it. Leicester anyone? I love Klopp.

22 Dec 2016 23:13:51
Great post Hamilton.

22 Dec 2016 23:45:02
Imagine what he could do at Everton Ed025? He's such a people person, and you are, of course, the People's Club :)

{Ed025's Note - im a massive fan burkey and have been even when he was at dortmund, but ronnie is not a bad runner up mate and i predict great things fo everton over the next couple of seasons, it would be nice if we could get back to the times when we were the best 2 clubs in the land and merseyside ruled....and i hope you wont be disappointed with second.. :)

23 Dec 2016 00:42:24
I hope all other managers think they can out think him tactically as they might take their eye off the ball. For me he's taken a group of players and looked at the best way to play tactically with the players he has and has worked wonders. Yes we will have the odd blip but who doesn't?

23 Dec 2016 01:19:07
Agree Hamilton, and just to add, he quickly figured out when he arrived that his greatest assets where Couts, Firmino, Llalana and Hendo (most of which had been underperforming so it's not as obvious as it looks now! ) and built the team around their high intensity, clever movement and interplay. He then addressed the lack of pace with Mane, the LB position by converting Milner, and the CB position with Matip, all of which have been outstanding successes. Even Widjnaldum has been solid and added a mobility and bite to midfield we lacked in either Can or Allen. Only downsides really have been Karius and Grujic but I'm sure in time they will come good (and Migs at least has benefitted from the competition it seems) .

The side now has a very clear identity and style of play with everyone schooled on their part. That is not something that happens with just enthusiasm. I'm sure a big part of this is also Buvac/ Krawietz/ Pep and co. but then again he put that team together himself too.

23 Dec 2016 00:13:37
Lol Ed. I still remember my first wembley final singing "Merseyside, Merseyside, Merseyside" :)

{Ed025's Note - thats right burkey, heady days indeed mate..

23 Dec 2016 08:36:43
The same Allen later became " Not good enough" for Hamilton. Tuchel lost the plot when he subbed kagawa who was pretty much running riot at us. A win over Dortmund was our destiny. I couldn't find any tactical genius in that game. To concede 3 goals at home.
Keeping aside Tactical and footballing knowlege, Klopp will be remembered and adored as a People's manager.

How did he lost the final Hamilton?

23 Dec 2016 09:37:09
For me I think Klopp's charisma masks his tactical acumen. The media are so enamoured by his charm that they don't actually look any further. This is great for the teams he manages as the opposition see them as the team that runs a lot and nothing more.
Just look at the derby for an example of his tactical nuance. He swapped Origi and Firmino, it looks a small change on paper but changed the game. Firmino who was anonymous out wide started dropping deep overloading midfield and getting on the ball to dictate our attacking play. Origi offered pace down the flank and stopped Coleman charging forward as much as he had because we now had a wide out ball threat.
Or maybe this wasn't Klopp's tactical thinking he just got lucky.

23 Dec 2016 09:51:32
Harry you just go against the grain for the sake of it and spout rubbish. You only see games on the surface, I don't really think your tactically aware what's happening mate.

23 Dec 2016 09:55:10
Tuchel was never Klopp's pupil.

23 Dec 2016 10:11:51
You have to let things like this go over your head mate. If he managed united the perception/ critique would be the complete opposite, the media, ex playing so called experts etc have always been anti liverpool and pro united so it's best to ignore these clowns. We know what we know about our manager and me personally I don't need any confirmation of his abilities from the pro united media.

23 Dec 2016 11:33:22
In reality it's just backlash Hamilton. Lots of media outlets love to gush about how perfect and great and amazing he is. So some outlets will provide everyone who just loves to hate an outlet by going on about how there is nothing to him. It's just swings and roundabouts, don't let it get to you.

23 Dec 2016 15:24:46
Thanks for the response lads. I just felt that we needed to be aware of the tendencies of the football mainstream as to why he`s being regarded as not good enough tactically.

As for Harry, you make a valid point however, I already addressed his mistakes in the first paragraph of my post so you are welcome to read it again.

I will say that NOTHING is anyone`s destiny in football. Turkish coach Fatih Terim said after their "miraculous" win vs the Czechs in the final group game of Euro 2008 that, "There are no miracles in football. There are only three results: a win, a draw or a loss. That`s it". I totally believe that.

It was never our destiny to beat Dortmund had we not worked hard a managers (tactics), fans (who sang their lungs out" or players who played their hearts out despite it looking that way. For faith without works is dead, someone said. Same for Istanbul. Of course you need a bit of luck BUT as Bjorn Borg said, "I find that the harder I work, the luckier I get". Luck can be defined as "a moment where (great) preparation meets opportunity". We had our opportunities to beat BVB and Milan and we took them because we never gave up and kept fighting.

As for Seville, Klopp messed up and he himself admitted it, so did the players who didn`t take full advantage of their opportunity to win that game as it was more than winnable, so there is your answer.

22 Dec 2016 09:40:05
If Coutinho goes, I don't want Draxler (over rated), Mahrez (wrong side of the front 3) or some other ill thought out knee jerk signing.

I would personally go all out for Son of Spurs. Not playing regularly, proven in a pressing style, scores goals and actually plays from the left of the attack. Would no doubt be expensive to get Levy to sell, but he is the ideal replacement in my opinion.

22 Dec 2016 10:42:19
Son has been crap all season and spurs would drivbe him to melwood. He would be available. He doesn't score goals and goes missing in big games. He is in no way close to either coutinho or Mane. Mane is a speed machine and time and time againt it proved what pace and power brings to any team.
He is not playing regularly because he isn't good enough.

How is Mahrez on the wrong side? plays on the right, quick feet, dribbling, Excellent left foot, cut inside and score some crackers. A workhorse off the ball. what more you expect from an actual winger?

Playing Son is pretty much like playing any midfielder or ACM on the flanks and we have tried that expirement from 10 years now.

22 Dec 2016 10:59:28
You've just answered what he means by playing on the wrong side of the attack Harry. Coutinho plays on the left and Mahrez plays on the right.

22 Dec 2016 11:08:25
Tomo

He could certainly play on the left. He isn't going to forget all his attributes.

22 Dec 2016 11:16:20
I know, I was just pointing out what he meant by plays on the wrong side since you asked "How is Mahrez on the wrong side? ".

22 Dec 2016 12:34:16
Got to agree with Harry, for once. I've watched four or five Spurs games this season and Son has blown hot and cold throughout. i'd love Mahrez but not sure he is a like for like replacement for Coutinhos creativity.

22 Dec 2016 12:42:41
Isn't also have to agree with Harry here.

Give me Mahrez or Draxker over Son any day.

Personally, I don't think any of those players are the answer to replacing Couts tho.

22 Dec 2016 13:06:19
If you have watched 4 or 5 Spurs games you will know that he hasn't started consecutive games since week 7. He has been used as a bit part player and still has 5 goals and 5 assists.

All impact subs blow hot and cold. Not to mention Spurs have been dreadful this season thanks to Pochettino going mad and playing dross like Dier, Wanyama and Sissoko in midfield.

It is not always as simple as signing expensive players who are playing in good teams and expecting them to instantly hit the ground running. Son has a great attitude, suits our style, plays in the position we would be looking to fill and is currently not playing as much as he should be.

It's easy to say "Mahrez would be great". He is completely out of our price range though and doesn't play on the left! Not all players can just switch sides and be as good.

Son is a proven top class left forward, but if you want to judge him based on 4 games as a sub in a ridiculously defensive team, fair enough.

22 Dec 2016 13:11:19
Son is quality, just not playing the best for Spurs at present.

Anyone remember Coutinhos form for Inter prior to his move?

22 Dec 2016 13:22:22
No we should say clear of son because Spurs will won't a high fee.

{Ed002's Note - Liverpool has no interest in him.}

22 Dec 2016 13:32:30
None are actually anywhere near to Coutinho. But Mahrez is a goal scorer and an actual winger with excellent first touch, vision to pick player ahead. He could dribble half of the opposition himself.

22 Dec 2016 14:07:24
MK Scouser is spot on. Son is a very good player and him playing in a dreadful team made up of crap players like Dier, Wanyama and the forever awful Sissoko, does not change that.

harry, he has not been great I agree, but that quality player is still there as he was on a scoring streak earlier this season of of 5 goals in 6 when Kane was out including a brace at Stoke. I also remember how he led the line vs City when they beat them and Son terrorized their backline all game with his pace and dribbling ability. Did you also miss his brilliant scissor kick finish vs Swansea, Harry? Exactly.

Spurs are not good this season overall and Son is suffering from that. Poch also plays a hapless Lamela ahead of him. Really? Lamela? By the way, Son is not a midfielder so stop with that nonsense. He is a two footed striker with good pace, dribbling ability clearly an eye for goal and can play across the forward line or can lead the line (like he did when Kane was out) and would thrive in our counter pressing system.

I`ve known him since his Bayer Leverkusen days and saw him at the WC and the Olympics. He is quality and I would take him any day over the Draxlers of the day.

22 Dec 2016 14:44:17
The only replacement worth his salt is Emil Forsberg of Redbull Leipzig. Tearing bundesliga up.

22 Dec 2016 15:29:25
Would just like to point out that Mane has played on the left many times. He played all three positions up top for Southampton, and was mostly used on the left while at Salzburg. He also played on the left a few times in pre season for us and did well. Personally the front 3 are so fluid in our system it wouldn't matter anyway.

22 Dec 2016 14:40:37
Harry I couldn't agree more.

22 Dec 2016 16:28:25
Hamilton you should change your sign of name to ". Copy paste Ed"
Son is playing carp in a team which has Errikson and Alli ahead of him. How on earth is wanyama and Dier influencing his position?
Absolute rubbish you spout at times. Do you even watch football? Spurs are on the same point with Arsenal and how is that crap?
Son was bought to play off Kane and the reality is he has failed miserably.
Spurs would happily sell him for anything we offer.

22 Dec 2016 16:58:28
Interesting to read that PSG are interested in draxler and son, they are at a similar level for me with draxler being ridiculously overhyped and possibly sporting a bit of an attitude.

22 Dec 2016 17:28:42
Cmon Son is not crap. I like him and think he would fit our team.
If Spurs are willing to sell, then we should try at least.

Mahrez? forget it, he's not going to pick us. But if he did, it would be brilliant.

{Ed002's Note - There is no interest in him from Liverpool.}

22 Dec 2016 17:54:10
Nightmare scenario: sell Coutinho, replace with Praet 🙄.

22 Dec 2016 18:26:06
Harry, comparing me to the Ed is quite a compliment BUT I wrote this out myself, thank you very much. Now, you may have difficulty reading because clearly you are referring to things that I did not even mention and as a result, talking out off your backside like you always do.

I laid out specific points as to why I think Son is a good player, presenting stats and situations as evidence that he has been great for Spurs this season but you conveniently disregarded all that and started spouting off stuff that I never mentioned.

Spurs have been awful this season, their signings have been crap and Poch has got them playing in too defensive of a manner that has stifled their attack hence, their attacking players LIKE SON. Playing Dier and Wanyama is just stupid especially at home as that limits what they can do attacking wise. This is why Poch`s system is affecting his attacking players LIKE SON.

"Son was bought to play off Kane". Did Poch tell you that or are you generalizing again like you always do, acting as if you know stuff whereas only the opposite is true?

Your pathetic argument that because they have the same points total as Arsenal (they are a point back of Arsenal) doesn`t make them crap, is embarrassing. If they had played much openly (like last season), maybe they would score more goals, win more games and be ahead for them or even us. See how that works?

It seems you are the one who doesn`t watch football because you post comments that confirm that, and pulling names of star players out of nowhere to make a point, doesn`t make you a genius in football so stop doing it as you are embarrassing yourself. It makes you sound clueless which is why you always get destroyed by Ed`s and other posters for either making things up or talking utter tosh.

{Ed025's Note - thats very harsh hamilton, a lot of what harry is expressing is opinion and just because he does not agree with you does not make him an idiot, you need to reign it in a bit as its bordering abusive mate, i dont think an apology would go amiss myself and in this season of goodwill and throughout the year it would be nice if we showed a bit of tolerance towards others..

22 Dec 2016 19:04:48
Heartily agree ed025. A very Merry Christmas to you and to all the other eds and reds.

Special mention to the irrepressible Wonder Dog Sparky and the Nose.
As it is the season of goodwill I will extend a handshake to Kirikou and wish him good luck.

Merry Christmas one and all 😘.

{Ed025's Note - love that ron, being nice is very underrated mate...and a very merry christmas to you and your family..

22 Dec 2016 19:36:54
Chill Ed025. I am used to it just like you. I have distanced myself from quite a few posters and I think I ll stay away from his post too. When people loose grip on the subject they abuse to make a point. I don't abuse people no matter how polar opposite they are from me.
Merry Xmass mate. You are. Wonderful Ed ☺.

{Ed025's Note - respect to you harry, and seasons greetings to you mate..

22 Dec 2016 19:41:12
Not many times do I agree with Harry, but I agree with him here; Son seemed like a guy with the potential to become an excellent player, but I think he is playing at his maximum and struggling in the PL. In no way is he anywhere near Coutinho in terms of quality.

Mahrez is a decent bet but I rather go for Isco if Coutinho were to leave.

22 Dec 2016 19:43:37
Harry, bang out of order to suggest Hamilton just copies the Eds. He is a top poster in my opinion. Hamilton, bang out of order to suggest Harry is that clueless. He is also a very good member of the site.

Why do all my posts descend into warfare? Haha. Harry, you think Mahrez is class. I agree. But he is not a left winger, and I don't care if Mane has played on the left at previous clubs. I think we can all agree that Mane has gone up to another level for us this season and part of that is because he isn't as predictable. On the left, he always cut in to shoot. Mahrez on the left may be great, but you don't sign players that expensive to shoe horn them into unfamiliar roles. Because if they fail to adapt you just have an extortionate flop.

If Coutinho leaves, we should go all out to sign a natural left forward/ winger. I agree with Hamilton and think Son is ideal. However Harry, I also like your pick Brandt. So you have both got my approval as valued opinions. Not that my opinion actually counts for anything by the way ;)

Now I'm going to throw a name out there that I have been told by a German colleague is a genuine target for Liverpool and Arsenal; Yunus Malli.

No idea where he would play in our current set up, but I thought I'd lighten the mood with a positive rumour.

Guys, chill out though. No need for you to make it personal in the first place Harry, and Hamilton just don't fight fire with fire.

Merry Christmas to you both.

{Ed025's Note - your a man after my own heart MK...are you sure your not a blue mate?.. :)

22 Dec 2016 19:50:01
Just want to make one claim

Poch did not say to me y was Son purchased Hamilton but I am sure he did not tell you either mate. You pick up a lot what Ed01 says on the page. Try archives or ask Ed01 what's his best position is or why he was bought. I guess the answer is ". Son could play off the striker. "

I would rather a pacy winger and you could certainly have Son.

{Ed025's Note - 2 wrongs have never made a right harry, we dont want 1 to 1 arguments on here as it gets too personal so if you dont agree with someones opinion then either ignore it or reply without being obnoxious please..

22 Dec 2016 19:54:26
Ed25 for an Everton fan you seem like a top bloke 😉! Merry Christmas to you and everyone else on this site.

Harry "Copy paste Ed"? That could stick😅😅!

{Ed025's Note - being a disciple of "the peoples club" irish i class myself as a man of the people :) , all the best to you and your family too mate..

22 Dec 2016 19:57:45
Ed25, you may be right BUT with all due respect, I never called anyone names nor did I call anyone an idiot. Did you read his response to my initial post? He was the one who was say how much I spout rubbish or how I should just copy and paste Ed01 comments, all because I disagree with him about Son. So because I disagree with him on Son now makes me an Ed wanna-be? Someone who spouts nonsense? Someone who doesn`t watch football? Those are the insults he presented in his response to my post YET I`m the one who is borderline abusive? Really? You are right that it is that type unfair judgement for one over the other that should not be tolerated.

I personally could not be bothered because unlike many on here, I can take it but it seems those who are dishing it out and calling me names can`t take are the ones who can`t take it. They are the ones who need to apologize.


Merry Christmas to all Ed`s and Reds alike! YNWA!

{Ed025's Note - i have just given the same sermon to harry mate, cant we just be nice to each other or just ignore what you dont like?, i think your bigger than that..

22 Dec 2016 19:59:30
Best mate at school was a blue Ed, so I have never had a problem with Everton or their fans :) we used to affectionately call ourselves the Merseyside brothers because everyone else in our school supported Arsenal or Man United! We were the weirdos with no title to celebrate in 20 years haha! We found solace in each others disappointment ;) completely don't get the tension between the red and blue. It was once the friendly derby and I hope it will be that way again. I went to the 2-2 draw with Sunderland earlier this year and I was sat in the main stand next to an Everton fan and we had some great banter! Turns out his wife was a Liverpool fan and dragged him along to watch. Merry Christmas buddy!

{Ed025's Note - i went to the everton liverpool cup final at wembley in 86 with my liverpool mates, and when lineacre scored i jumped around like a kangaroo on heat, it seemed like i was the only blue in the liverpool end but never for a minute felt threatened, we lost but all travelled home on the train together pissed as farts singing songs and having a great time scousers in arms, thats the way it should be mate..all the best to you and yours my friend..

22 Dec 2016 20:09:21
Copy that Ed025 ✋️.

{Ed025's Note - nice one harry..

22 Dec 2016 20:15:03
thanks for the compliment, MK. Ed, I can live with that response. As for Harry, my response was over the top and I take responsibility for my actions.

{Ed025's Note - good stuff hamilton, lets move on now mate and discuss and debate liverpool,s downfall...sorry wrong page.. :)

22 Dec 2016 20:38:41
Can I have a picture of Ed01 and Ed025 together. Arms around shoulder ☺.

{Ed025's Note - you could have 2 years ago when we met up and had a drink in liverpool city centre harry, him living abroad means we dont meet very often though..

22 Dec 2016 20:44:20
Great story that Ed! Sounds like simpler times. I wasn't born then, but I'm assuming we let you score? ;)

{Ed025's Note - of course MK.. :)

22 Dec 2016 21:06:59
Anyway, back to players LFC might be targeting:

Does anyone still think we have interest in Praet?
I really hope not but ed002 seemed to think he was a definite target over the summer.
Has WDS anything to say on the matter?

23 Dec 2016 00:50:51
Well that got a bit tasty! To answer the OP Son isn't good enough for LFC's first team but would be a decent squad player to have. Problem is can we afford to spend £30mil plus on a squad player? Probably best to look elsewhere.

22 Dec 2016 08:27:53
Eds, if you have the time. What ever happens to the young lad from Norway after his move to Real. There was a host of clubs chasing his and if I remember correctly Liverpool was one of them. Never really hear anything about him now dispite all the hype that was around him at the time.

{Ed001's Note - Martin Odegaard? Is in their B side, causes lots of problems with his attitude. He is ridiculously overpaid and his father, at least, believes all the hype and is a disruptive influence at the club.}

22 Dec 2016 19:38:46
I get the feeling that a lot of the interested clubs were happy they didn't sign him given the fact he shown no real interest in his development as soon as decent money was offered. Adding to that the fact his dad seems to be too involved and is trying to push to hard and still trying to sell the player as a first team starter to Madrid. When all he seems to be doing is pushing him out the door.

{Ed002's Note - They really wanted a deal with Rennes to take him on loan but Rennes do not see him as ready for their first team.}