Liverpool Banter Archive May 26 2017

26 May 2017 21:54:32
Really looking forward to this transfer winddow.
For me Klopp has proven through his career that he (and his management team) have a great eye for a player and sign well. So over 2 or 3 Summer transfer windows that should really tell on consistency and performance.
Last Summer we signed (and please correct me if I miss one or two) Karius, Matip, Klavan, GW, Mane and Grujic while I think 13 players in or around the first team squad left.

Karius: Nervous start from a young keeper. Jury still out, will get another chance to show what he can do. At least he pushed Mignolet to perform better. I think he will prove to be a good signing.

Matip: A good first season. A good signing.

Klavan: Signed as back up. Sakho's melt down pushed him into more action than planned. Did Ok, not great, as expected. Personally with all respect to him I would prefer for owners to say to managers when they suggest a 'squad' or 'back up' signing to find such a player in our reserves.

GW: grew into the season. A good signing.

Mane: A great signing. Full stop.

Grujic: Injury slowed his season. Young and very promising. The tyoe of midfielder who can break a packed defence as he constantly runs through them dragging defenders (remember when henderson did that the season we nearly won it and we missed him against Chelsea) .

So now Klopp and his team can talk progress and Champions league (almost) to prospective signings which takes us up a level. Plus the owners have been financially supportive to all the managers they have appointed.

Not too many managers have more hits than misses in players they sign.

Bring it on Klopp.

27 May 2017 09:17:10
I'm in a Devils advocate move so I'd say one fantastic signing, two good, one wait and see, one badly managed and one bad.

27 May 2017 14:19:56
You've missed out Wijnaldum who's also been a great signing. Usually goes under the radar but keeps us ticking and has popped up with some very important goals for us.

28 May 2017 00:55:49
Wiji has got better and better as the season progressed.

Hes going to score some big goals for us.

26 May 2017 19:40:53
I know this this is not lfc related but city have really pulled off a coup getting silva and if it is for the reported fee it is even more of an incredible deal. Is this the end for Raheem at city ed01?

{Ed001's Note - I did mention a while back that Sterling had failed to impress Pep and they were looking to replace him for the long term. His end product is not good enough.}

26 May 2017 19:52:51
Sterling is still young though Ed01 bit unfair for Pep to expect him to be playing like a player in his prime.

{Ed001's Note - irrelevant, he has made little to no progress.}

26 May 2017 20:05:59
I think he is the sort of player who could have made more progress under Klopp. Shame really.

26 May 2017 20:11:48
Sterling hasn't progressed because like all young English players the media treat them like gods before they have even achieved anything.

Hence we never see progression (sterling, walcott, wiltshire) etc etc.

26 May 2017 20:14:54
its called karma.

26 May 2017 20:18:57
I remember saying this when PG took over at City. I then questioned myself on wether it was sour grapes or not. even if it was, I was right. He can't cross, can't shoot but very good at going down inside the box!

26 May 2017 20:34:15
Players at City are dropping like flies. Guardiola is going to take the broom and sweep clean but Sterling is one of those most likely to survive unless they can get another club to take over his very healthy pay packet. His contract is not ending anytime soon.

26 May 2017 20:36:50
sorry ed01 i should've made myself clear that was why i was asking as i recall you mentioning that Pep had not been impressed. If i am honest i think Silva will be world class and Raheem, due to his end product, will only ever be a good player imo.

26 May 2017 21:34:39
It's a given that Guardiola will do a clean sweep for next year because ManC were closer in overall quality to Liverpool than to Spurs or Chelsea. Doubtful he could move up the table with this team. And he won't have the classic "it's my first year and it's not my preferred team of players" excuse anymore, next year, so the pressure is definitely on. I am very surprised, however, that they'd let Sterling go since they paid such a high premium for him given that he's English.

26 May 2017 21:48:03
Sterling will have a year coming off the bench whilst still getting his highgh wages.

26 May 2017 22:03:05
Would you take Sterling back?

26 May 2017 22:09:47
That is what happens when a player chooses money over everything else.

26 May 2017 22:22:52
No, no taking Sterling back. I'd rather risk the money on Brandt, Luan or Salah, given we've all seen how Sterling plays (run super fast up the field and straight head-on to someone) . I still remember how Flanagan had him for breakfast and Guardiola showed mercy and took him off at half time.

26 May 2017 23:28:41
Take Sterling back? After the way he went about leaving?
Also considering that his development stalled while he chased the £.
Not in this lifetime, his bridges are well and truly burned.

27 May 2017 00:57:25
No thanks to Sterling. With the price City would want for him, I'd rather put in another 10 million and sign Thomas Lemar.

27 May 2017 08:46:22
Would you take Suarez back?

28 May 2017 00:28:40
Why? He's not even better than Mane nor Couts nor the wide man (Brandt) we will be getting hopefully. He has made next to no progress since he left while we have made progress as a team so sorry, he's not wanted here and this has nothing to do with his pathetic history with the club.

26 May 2017 19:08:52
All the hype around Keita is quite strange when majority of our fans want to see a defensive midfielder added to our squad. Have not seen much of Keita but apparently he is the real deal, not a defensive midfielder though.

It is quite hilarious when fans are begging for Keita to join when 'priority' according to majority is a defensive midfielder.

Clearly Klopp does not see a defensive midfielder in his plans going forward.

Just thought I would point that out :-)

26 May 2017 19:34:39
If Keita joins, I think we will see Henderson/ Can as the defensive midfielder in the squad with Lucas and Stewart expected to leave. This would leave Keita/ Lallana/ Grujic/ Wijnaldum and perhaps even Coutinho for central midfield.

26 May 2017 19:44:08
I think you guys concentrate too much on having an out and out holding midfielder, I don't think klopp likes the idea and it's looking like he's building a midfield where all 3 of them don't mind putting a foot in, and are all looking to press together rather than having one player to rely on, if everyone puts in a shift we don't need a holding midfielder and I think it's fair to say our current first choice midfield 3 hendo lallana and Gini typify that.

26 May 2017 19:46:40
AG,

Even with Hendo, not a defesnive Midfielder, neither Can, they are basically filling the Alonso role of a deeplying playmaker. If you want to see a DM mid for us again it would have to be someone like Mascherano who's main aim was breaking up play and making tackle after tackle, stopping the opposition at all costs.

We have no such player in our squad except for Lucas who is on his way out.

Lucas gone, Keita in would see us without a dedicated DM.

26 May 2017 20:04:06
Really don't understand the hype around Keita - aberage.

26 May 2017 20:32:40
Ron, trust me Keita is top class, he's a brilliant box to box midfielder, would bring huge energy to our midfield, he makes penetratrive runs into the box, his link up play and positional sense is top notch and his dribbling is quality. He's essential to breaking down a stubborn defence. There's a reason he's one the most sought over midfielders this Summer.

26 May 2017 20:55:24
Keita is a pretty good player Ron.

26 May 2017 20:57:18
It does not matter how good Keita is. We will be buying from a German Club. We will be paying up to double what any other European club outside England will be willing to offer. Pretty sure Ed002 can confirm that.

If we do manage to sign Keita he is going to not only be our highest earner but also our most expensive player ever. Klopp needs to deal with the weaknesses in our squad and a luxury signing like Keita is going to fix jack.

Just about the whole of Europe wants to sign Keita and any English club willing to sign Keita will pay dearly to make him sign on the dotted line. ED002 will confirm this.

I think people need to start paying attention.

26 May 2017 22:05:52
Firstly neither Can nor Henderson are defensive midfielders. We need to stop playing people out of position.

Secondly, players are only going to get more and more expensive. We had better get used to it.

26 May 2017 22:20:21
max chin up mate it's the silly season. It's exciting to be linked with quality players. Not sold on VVD but I'm based in Germany for work and watched a lot of Keita. He is absolute class. We should never get our knickers in a knot when the gaffer looks to improve the first team. Keita certainly does that.

28 May 2017 00:34:04
Klopp does not play with a true DM so people need to stop moaning about it cos Klopp won't change and he shouldn't cos Hendo and Can have been solid for us in that position and will only get better when the play more. As for Keita, he is a very good player but is not worth the 50m reportedly being quoted. I just don't understand why we are going for a player who is not keen on leaving and that his club is not willing to sell. This will only lead to us paying stupid money for him which is what 50m is. Well, we will see and I will have to trust Klopp on this one.

26 May 2017 18:03:07
Ed's, where would keita fit into our squad? Who is dropped?

{Ed001's Note - depends on fitness and form.}

26 May 2017 18:26:24
If anything he would either take Lallana or Gini's place in midfield. We are not going to sign Keita based on him being second choice, especially not paying the fee his club would demand.

Can's new contract will also be based on playing time.

Are we going to spend a whackload on a CM whenthe need for improvement in our squad lies elsewhere?

I would rather blow half our budget on two competent fullbacks as we still have Grujic waiting for a chance which sees us with ample options for midfield including Coutinho and Hendo.

27 May 2017 00:38:45
Definitely wouldn't take Ginis place.

The guy Klopp signed last summer for almost £30m and has had a great season finishing with most assists?

Don't think so Max.

I really don't think anyone is taking anyones place - it's a squad game and will be even more so with Europe!

26 May 2017 12:40:46
Read that we are willing to spend up to 50 mil on a player specifically naby keita, I find this very hard to believe we'd be willing to spend that much on anyone so I was wondering about the validity of that.

{Ed002's Note - Try the search engine.}

26 May 2017 16:32:00
Same here mate. But every article/ reporter reporting it. Seems this TM will spend big or maybe one of our important player is leaving?

26 May 2017 17:42:10
Keita is a top midfielder and will get better. I'd be happy to sign him as he's dynamic, makes chances, scores goals and puts himself about. Proper all action midfielder.

26 May 2017 18:48:54
Apparently it's just not Naby Keita Liverpool are willing to spend over 50 million pounds on, but also Virgil van Dijk.

26 May 2017 19:21:16
Hhhmmm, Liverpool pay out £100m on two players for many years to come when that will not fix any of the problems concerning our squad.

Let's make Southampton rich once again :-)

26 May 2017 19:35:51
I disagree. I think Keita and van Dijk would certainly help our defensive side of the game. And yes, I know Keita is not a defensive midfielder.

26 May 2017 20:15:36
OK AG, we can add VVD at £50m plus, Keita at £50m plus, along with making them our highest earners then we can play Lallana at LB and Gini at RB. Problem solved or just continue with Clyne at RB and Milner :-)

If you think that is going to solve our defensive side of the game adding a CB who is massively and utterly overpriced, probably no better than Lovren was at Southampton and add another box to box midfielder, Keita at over a combined fee of £100m then I will take my hat off.

26 May 2017 20:25:41
If Keita wants to leave Leipzig and come to Liverpool. I reckon we can get him for less than £50 million.
And I think he's got the same agent as Mane. which may work in our favour.

26 May 2017 21:05:36
You are living in La la land Liver_La. We did not buy Mane from a German club seeing the thing called British Pounds.

26 May 2017 21:47:21
maxlfc

I'm sure we could get him for £49.99 million
🤑.

26 May 2017 23:47:11
VVD can at least win headers, is very physical and he is quick. I can't think of any other centre halves around who have all three of those qualities that we can sign.

26 May 2017 11:30:17
One for Ed1 I think if you don't mind. When we got Klopp we were led to believe that he would build a team using shrewd signings and the academy players. My question is at times this season we've been crying out for a centre back and instead of Gomes we get Lucas. When Mane was injured or at AFCON we needed pace and trickery but instead of Ojo or Wilson we restructure the midfield to get Lallana up top. When that doesn't work he still persists. Why? Is he waiting to blood the youngsters or will they just not make it? Is he the type to not want to throw them in at the deep end in case they drown and don't make it back? I'm not having a go at Klopp, far from I love the guy but it just seemed rather odd to me given what we were led to believe about him.

{Ed002's Note - He added Matip, Klaven and, on a temporary basis, Caulker so there is no shortage of CBs. He has not really given a chance to Grujic, Ojo or Gomez.}

26 May 2017 09:16:42
What happened to the podcast ed01, been waiting like an excited kid for it?

{Ed001's Note - we never got the set up working on the day, it has been so long Benny forgot the password etc. Then, yesterday, I went out for a quick walk along the creek and ended up getting lost due to listening to the missus's directions. 3 hours wandering around Naif is not a good thing to do in 40c heat!}

26 May 2017 09:47:35
Shame ed, hope you can get something sorted. Btw is this new missus called brenda by any chance 😉.

{Ed001's Note - hahaha no.}

26 May 2017 10:03:51
Everything is sorted my end. So If you want we can do it tonight.

{Ed001's Note - ok mate, I am not planning on going anywhere, too knackered after yesterday! Walked bloody miles.}

26 May 2017 11:06:34
Ballerpod 😎.

26 May 2017 12:10:09
Yay, can the joke of the week be really bad for a change. 😉 Suggested topics, Season review, player that had most impact, most improved player, who you would like to see moved on and come in, predictions for next season but in the case of ed01 hopes because he is too superstitious. Oh and favorite and least favorite moment of the season. Just a few to thing about. Cheers for doing this guys.

26 May 2017 12:34:01
Got an absolute stormer for joke of the week. And great suggestions x.

26 May 2017 12:36:24
Here's my 2c on those

1) very good season, not stellar but we're moving forward and learning how to beat bottom half sides so I'm happy we're becoming a real force to be reckoned with rather than a flash in the pan
2) Mane - changed the way we (and the opposition) think about our attack and the 4-3-3 and wide positions
3) Clyne, sorry but weak in the air and not good enough in attack
4) Pereira - we need someone who can play FB or either side
5) top 4 and a cup will be fine for me, if we can settle into a regular top4 and winning cups and hopefully the league every now and again that's a massive step forward to the last 10yrs.

26 May 2017 13:34:17
Shouldn't it be joke of the year Benny? wasn't that when the last podcast was ;) .

26 May 2017 16:39:04
Had to have time off due to getting a restraining order against 001. He's calmed down and settled his urges, so we can go again. Safely.

26 May 2017 17:25:05
Appearances can deceive, Benny. I suggest you carry a helmet and jockstrap, just in case. ;-)

26 May 2017 06:12:10
Hi Eds, and everyone, this isn't strictly liverpool related but seems kinda relevant after the recent game in Sydney.
So in Australia a telephone company (Optus) bought the broadcast rights for the EPL with the intention of streaming it. This meant it was no longer available on the TV, except for a few games that were shown free to air.
Unfortunately, Australia has incredibly poor internet and people are generally unwilling to pay the extra cost of subscribing to Optus, so there has been a significant downgrade in the number of views and people watching the EPL in Australia.
I was wondering on if people thought the FA should prioritise selling the rights to a broadcaster that will allow the most number of people to view the game and grow the market, or if they should sell it to the highest bidder, or if there should be a middle ground?

{Ed025's Note - like everything in life its all about the market forces reshi, the problem is that greed takes over and the general man in the street will struggle to afford to watch games, in an ideal world we would be able to watch games for free but we all know thats not going to happen mate..

26 May 2017 06:57:01
Optus massively overpaid for it and only have 2 years left on the contract. It has not made them any money and unless there is a significant uptake in higher based contracts next season I will be surprised if they bid again. I can see those rights going back to foxtel. If think Ian Ayer voiced these concerns to the FA last year. no idea if it had any impact.

26 May 2017 08:50:46
All I know is I already had a basic Optus mobile so I got this year's epl for free and could cancel my Foxtel which cost 90 and was crap 😀 Streaming has been excellent and I live in regional Queensland. I'm happy for now, think it will cost 15 a month next season.

26 May 2017 09:49:12
Apparently Optus have to increase their uptake or risk loosing the contract. Foxtel are sniffing around to make a deal. Also, i believe a Singapore company bought Optus a while back. Streaming sucks in Adelaide.

26 May 2017 09:51:52
The major problem was they didn't offer it as separate service, you had to get a contract with them and potentially pay an early contract exit fee if you were worth another provider. Most people I know did what I did and used the account of a friend/ relative who had no interest in the game.

I think that optus screwed themselves over and will lose a fair bit of money but hopefully that means whoever gets the next rights realises how much money it can generate if done correctly and that means better, cheaper and more wide-spread coverage.

26 May 2017 11:11:35
Its all about the money - whatever happened to football being a working class sport?

26 May 2017 11:41:40
Thats why I like Liverpool TV. Miles cheaper than Optus but I still get to see all Liverpool games plus Ladies, U23, U18.

26 May 2017 11:42:35
In New Zealand for the two seasons prior to this one, we had a thing called premier league pass or plp. I'm not sure if this was available anywhere else but basically for about 20 bucks a month we had live access to every Premier League game. When BEIN sports got involved that seemed to change this online ability for some reason. but we really miss plp!

26 May 2017 12:39:18
Singapore is expensive but at least you get every game and that's worth it - likewise LFCTV is excellent if you have the patience. I can't understand the UK if I'm honest - pay a fortune but still risk not seeing your team play.

26 May 2017 03:02:45
Don't understand why Brandt is demanding these assurances of regular game time. When you're a young player who leaves for a big club in the champions league, the prospect of time on the bench is just a risk you need to be willing to take. If he's so concerned with playing every week then perhaps he should stay at Leverkusen for a little while longer.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have him here, but I reckon he's a little naive.

26 May 2017 04:41:54
Naive?

He wants what is best for him, what is wrong with that?

A large number of young footballers go to big clubs, for big money, and are never given an opportunity. Before long, what was once touted as unlimited potential becomes a story of what might have been or could have been. Then they leave, never re-find that ability that made them so desirable and play a lower league of football then they would have perhaps wanted.

So no, I don't think Brandt is being naive. In fact, I think he is being very smart. He is considering all possible avenues, weighing the pros and cons, requesting assurances that if he was to make the step up to a bigger team that he would receive regular playing time. Nothing wrong with that. I would be far more concerned if Brandt wanted more money, that would show he is extrinsically motivated. More a mercenary for hire than a footballer who plays because of his love and passion for the game.

Brandt has ability, we all recognise that. But ability can only take you so far. The rest comes down to opportunity and dedication. Brandt clearly cares about the first, let's see in a few years time whether his ability will match his commitment to his craft.

26 May 2017 06:32:41
Players who demand playing time are insecure which is not a good trait.
If you're good enough, you'll play. If you're not good enough you will be dropped.
If a player can't deal with this reality then move on to the next target.

{Ed001's Note - not necessarily. It depends on the player. Brandt is simply saying why would I want to move to join you and be a squad player, when I can stay here play first team football on a regular basis and develop. It is not like the old days when there was a good reserve system to bring players through, nowadays there is only really first team football.}

26 May 2017 06:36:13
Mate, there's a big difference between asking for regular opportunities and asking to be in the starting team virtually every week. Brandt will get enough opportunities, but on top of that, he wants to be guaranteed a consistent starting place.

Obviously, he is searching for what is the best for him, but he should be more realistic. Big clubs in the Champions League find it hard to make such assurances to 21-year-old players with potential. He needs to accept that if he wants to move to a big club, he'll need to fight his way into a mainstay role. He's not exactly in the best bargaining position to make those demands.

Hopefully, Liverpool can have a discussion with Brandt and convince him with the idea of coming to Liverpool for regular playing opportunities with the aim of cementing a starting role in the near future.

{Ed001's Note - why should he be more realistic? He is in no rush to move, so why not just stay where he is or go somewhere he will get guaranteed game time and develop his game?}

26 May 2017 06:51:16
If you want guaranteed game time then don't go to a big champions league club, it's that simple. When you consider a big champions league club, accept the risk of not playing virtually every game.

I know he's in no rush move, I'm not saying that he must leave Leverkusen - I said that if he wants to play every game, then stay at Leverkusen or go somewhere else that it is a certainty. But asking for the same assurances from Liverpool just seems like a waste of time to me, accept the Liverpool opportunity for what it is - an opportunity to play regularly and potentially cement himself into the starting team.

{Ed001's Note - but you are saying he should be realistic and I don't see where you get this idea he is not being realistic. He is not the one pushing for a move to Liverpool, Liverpool are chasing him. Why does he have to change his requirements to suit us, when we are the ones wanting him, not him wanting us? People really need to get those blinkers off before making comments.}

26 May 2017 07:54:30
He is 20 years old with a very bright future. He's not wanting game time assurances because he believes he should be first choice, more that he may not reach his potential without enough game time right now.

I'd much rather that attitude than coming for the money and nothing else.

26 May 2017 08:15:59
Is it looking like we're going to offer him the assurances he wants ed? Or are we going to move on to someone else?

{Ed002's Note - We don't know but one side needs to change their stance.}

26 May 2017 09:23:09
Because nowhere he can go will really offer guarenteed playing time.

All yoy xan do is buy him and hope he one is good enough and two works hard enough.

Klopp needs him players to run throufh brick walls. What if he offers thia playing time and brandt thinks he doeant have to work hard?

Steer clear if brandts in the right 🤔.

26 May 2017 09:23:10
Robin, you keep referencing a big champions league club if you are speaking about Liverpool you need to back up a little we Ain't a big champions league club we are trying to rebuild our reputation and try and become a force again, 2 seasons out of 8 in the champions league is not big club material be realistic, Brandt is doing the smart thing he wants to know he has the opportunity to start every week and is not blocked by Couts which if we revert back to the 4-3-3 he is unless Klopp moves him I agree with the lad if we don't play him week in week out he should stay at Bayern he is only 20 years old have another good season and more will come calling for him.

26 May 2017 10:19:50
Just to be pedantic Kloppers it's not Bayern but Bayer. The club was started as the works team for Bayer the German chemical and pharmaceutical company.

26 May 2017 11:04:02
Ah I see thank you for the correction Redplanet.

26 May 2017 11:11:09
Brandt is right. Where is Markovic guys? We screwed up his career.

26 May 2017 11:30:52
Kinda see both sides really. Brandt doesn't want to stagnate on the bench, he wants to be playing and developing. I guess we would like a player who fights for their place and constantly puts the effort in, rather than getting complacent because no one is challenging for their position. Klopp is always going to play his best options. If one of our kids is given a chance and has a great run of games, they will get played ahead of Brandt, responsibility is on both parties to give chances and put the effort in. I don't see how any guarantees can be given from either side. However, I doubt it is as black and white as it seems, I'm sure a conversation between LFC and Brandt will go a long way.

26 May 2017 11:41:01
Brandt's attitude is refreshing. The guy could easily make more money elsewhere, but he'd rather stay at Leverkusen and play regular football. There are countless examples of young players going to big clubs, getting benched and having their careers stifled. I have no complaints about his stance, but I hope an agreement can be reached.

26 May 2017 11:54:37
To be fair I like his attitude. he is 20 years old and at an important crossroads in his career. one would assume he has still got massive improvement left in him so he could become a absolute worldy.
He could stay where he is and carry on performing as he is, and his demand and the quality of clubs looking at him would increase.
He could come to us with no assurances and stagnate (for example markovic) .
Or he could go to a different club and still improve and develop his undoubted potential.
I for one have more respect for players who want to play week in week out on less money than I do for the Delphs and bonys of this world.

26 May 2017 12:55:07
The lad has the right idea - most important to his development is game time right now and you only need to see how Markovic, Delph and numerous others have disappeared, not necessarily through their own fault but never really having had much of a chance.

The smartest thing is to be patient, so asking assurances of the side you move is a positive sign of his maturity and recognising where he is in his development- not a negative.

Whether we have the confidence to back that is our call.

26 May 2017 14:20:49
No. In one sense I admire his attitude of wanting highly frequent football to develop himself. But in another sense, I also hate his attitude. I don't care if Liverpool is chasing him or he's chasing Liverpool. Irrelevant fluff. You're a 21 year old and one of the world's biggest clubs just made you a decent offer of at least regular enough football to provide a chance of cementing yourself, evidenced by how much Klopp admires and wants the kid, and how much of a void exists on the left flank. Liverpool can't absolutely guarantee what he wants, so accept the offer for what it is, and take it or leave it. If you wanna go to Liverpool, show some balls and back yourself to cement a place in the starting side.

26 May 2017 17:35:12
Robin, you do know that we came to Brandt and Brandt did not come to us, right? He is in no hurry to move but is willing to provided he can get opportunities to play and develop, which is what we all want. He is 20 years old and is being realistic and putting all the cards on the table about what he wants.

He himself knows that if he does not use the opportunities he's given wisely and someone else takes his spot, he will have to be benched and work hard to get it back. That is football and if you think Brandt does not know that then, you are not giving him enough credit. He knows there are NO guarantees in football and Klopp will not keep playing him even when he is crap. Ask Coutinho vs Burnley.

I like his attitude and sincerity and NO, we are not a big CL club so really, we have no demands to make on this matter as we want him and he is open to the move but not chumping at the bit to come here. Both those points have to be recognized.

27 May 2017 10:17:50
We are a big UCL club N Red. We are Liverpool, and we'll be challenging for the EPL next season.

I am indeed aware that Liverpool approached Brandt. But Brandt is obviously interested. So it's going both ways.