Liverpool Banter Archive November 06 2013

06 Nov 2013 22:03:35
Did anyone see the don't by the sun sticker behind wenger's head while he was sitting on the bench?

I'm surprised Sly would have shown that.

06 Nov 2013 20:35:39
Eds some of the Porto players are definitely worth a look, Champions league experience and although not a great league, gems have been found from worse e.g. Suarez - Eredivisie.

If we want to play 3 5 2 Danilo and Alex Sandro are quick and while not solid at the back, as wing backs would add a lot going forward. Why did we never look to either this summer?

Also we could look to Jefferson Quintero for a bit of creativity or equally his Colombian colleague Jackson Martinez if Suarez leaves.

Equally, Fernando and Defour (I know Everton have interest) but I think he's a really hard working solid in possession - reminds me if Fernandinho (and not just the name!)

Thoughts Eds and other posters, cheers. {Ed002's Note - So will there be another six players from whatever game you watch tomorrow?}

Yeah sorry was originally meant to be referring the two full backs and got carried away

08 Nov 2013 04:19:07
Martinez? I'm skeptical. Reminds me a lot of Altidore but with noticeably better control. Probably better off at a place like Stoke.

06 Nov 2013 16:59:44
Hi Eds and fellow reds

I do hope our interest in Salah is genuine and not just newspaper talk. Every time I have seen him he has been electric! Against ManU and Chelsea against Basel he was such a confident and menacing attacker that even then I turned to my cousin and said : 'wouldn't it be great if we signed him? He's the type of 'I'm going to beat you' player we need. Fast, skilful and full of confidence.
Sorry if I go on one but he is good, and I hope we get him.

Be positive everyone, we are on course for a happy season! YNWA {Ed002's Note - I have explained that there is interest in Salah.}

Salah reminds me a bit of that short Moroccan dude Benitez signed only this Salah player has a lot more to his game

El Zhar I think he was called

06 Nov 2013 16:12:15
Hi . Not sure if I'm in the right place or I'm even allowed to do this but has anyone got a ticket spare for Saturdays match? I am a member but have been too late on all the online sales and by the time I get through on the phone there all sold out . Thanks {Ed002's Note - You can do it but you are not going to put phone numbers or email addresses. Take any contact to Facebook or whatever.}

06 Nov 2013 11:23:56
I'd like to add to the Gerrard debate. I have never truly liked him in the defensive CM role, so I have a bias here. Against Arsenal, in the last 10 mins, with the ball moving around the pitch, I noticed a couple of times him just walking. Not demanding the ball to get us back into the game. He looked tired.

Now, given all the OPTA stats we can access, can anyone actually see how many miles he covers compared to other players. This would give SOME (minor) indication as to whether he is providing enough work to warrant the role. Like many other posters, I would rather see him further up the pitch, for shorter spells possibly. Leave him were he can damage opponents for 60 mins. If its working, great. If not, look to Alberto (or someone else) for the last 30, which would mean not needing to change the team shape too much. Either way, I doubt he can continue in a role demanding too much legwork for very long.

I think the Gerrard question is the defining moment of Brendan's managerial career. We can only hope he doesn't fluff it. Like Rafa was seen to lose the league to ManU in 2008-09 (when a bolder approach MIGHT have seen us over the line), I would hate Brendan to lose out on a top 4 finish when we have a good chance given the way the other contenders are stretched in Europe.

In the past, the greats have had to be ruthless with players past their best, Shanks being the example in 1970 (after the Watford defeat I don't think St John played again for us again). Great he has been, and the time isn't now, but Stevie's time will come, and needs to be managed for the sake of the club, almost ignoring the players ego (unfair?) / wishes.

We can only wait and see. {Ed002's Note - I am not sure a 43 year old example is best. Thank god you are not living in the past.}

06 Nov 2013 13:12:21
The problem with Stevie is that to play a defensive midfield role you either need to be quick and tough in the tackle, or just read the game really well.
Examples of those who are quick and tough in the tackle: Gary Medel, Cambiasso, Mascherano, M'Vila, Scott Parker etc.
Examples of those who just read the game and therefore don't rely on pace: Alonso, Pirlo, Busquets, Bender, Khedeira etc.

Gerrard when he was younger, had the speed and bite to play in a deeper role. Now he has lost his yard of pace, he must rely on quickness of the mind. Unfortunately, he is far too slow at spotting danger. He therefore is constantly caught out of position and losing his man. The reason it worked so well when we had Masch and Alonso was because we had a Hovis midfield; the best of both (yes that was a bread pun). The reason top teams tend to prefer those who are tactiaclly switched on, is that they can do their job for the full 90minutes every week without tiring because they rarely break a sweat. As well as that though, they also tend to be better passers of the ball (see Alonso and Pirlo examples).

Gerrard is still quite quick so can play the role to an extent. But as soon as he starts to tire, he has no positional awareness to fall back on, which is why we have been so bad in the second half this season. We start to let the midfield battle slip. Lucas used to be so good because although he had not mastered either characteristic, he had a bit of speed, was agressive in the tackle and most of the time took up a good position. Since his injury though he has lost his speed, does not seem as agressive and is still only positionally good most of the time. The thing is, every time he gets caught out, Liverpool does. We have two underperforming deep lying midfielders. Lucas for me just needs to drop slightly deeper and focus 100% on protecting the defence, maybe even slotting in between two centre backs throughout the game when needed. This would allow us to play midifelders with more freedom and energy so we could press higher up the field and start to win the ball back before the opposition has the chance to start an attack. Regardless of what position we put Gerrard in, he is going to have to do some pressing constantly. Putting him in an assigned forward role though, takes away his reponsibility to track back so much, which would save his stamina and perhaps allow him to last 60-75 minutes at 100% effort. However if Rodgers wants to continue to use him as a deeper player, or a box to box midfielder, in the high tempo's of the premier league, he will only be effective for 30-45 minutes.

Gerrard still has that world class edge to his game. He is just being mismanaged. I don't know whether it's a case of player power, or Rodgers being afraid of a backlash, but it needs to change ASAP if we are serious about being title contenders, or even top 4 for that matter. You can't have two players in your engine room with no engine. Henderson and Allen are more suited to this for me as Allen has the positional sense and Henderson has the bite. I am hoping we get to see them together against Fulham, with Lucas behind them, maybe even as part of the back 3 and Coutinho ahead of them. We need to get back to dominating the midfield, so we can dominate the game.

YNWAdam

I would never have called Alonso a defensive midfielder. Even more so Pirlo.

Scott Parker?
That's too funny

Apart from the Scott Parker bit I agree with everything

06 Nov 2013 17:10:09
I think our best option at this stage is to go back to 433.

The only reason to keep 3412 is that we have 3 in form CBs, and our nominal best centre half still on the bench after injury, and because it could let us try Coutinho in behind Sturridge and Suarez, rather than nominally having him operate from the left.

That said, I think a midfield three of Lucas with Gerrard and Hendo in front of him (between them they should give him enough help without either needing to restrict themselves from ever getting forward) would work well enough to offset that. And Coutinho should still hurt teams from the left, he did all the time he was here last season.

I wonder would playing 4312, without giving any of our front three even the slightest nod towards starting from a flank, or a 442 narrow diamond (Lucas at the bottom, Coutinho at the top) get too congested in the middle going forward?

06 Nov 2013 17:44:46
Alonso and Pirlo are definitely defensive midfielders. I suppose it depends on your perception, but for me, any player who sits deep is defensive. There are different styles of defending though. Picking up loose balls, intercepting passes, receiving the ball deep and keeping it away from the opposition, or flying into a 'highlight reel' tackle. They are all part of the defensive duties of the midfield. They are not your average brutes, but their defensive contributions cannot be under estimated.

Chris, I said that Scott Parker was a quick and aggressive styled defensive midfielder, I never said he was world class ;)

Something Red, I actually really want us to try a 4-1-2-1-2 narrow diamond with a midfield of Lucas-Hendo-Allen-Coutinho. The best team in my opinion to ever win the Prem was Chelsea in 2009-10. They used this diamond with a midfield of Essien-Cole-Malouda-Lampard. It is incredibly effective, as long as you press the opposition, don't give away possession in silly areas, and your CDM drops in between the two centre backs when your wing backs push on. I particularly enjoyed Chelsea's 8-0 demolition of Wigan that season.

YNWAdam

You know Adam, I've been meaning to post about that diamond formation that you suggested, for a while now. Just dint find the courage to, as I might seem like a guy to suggest a formation right after a defeat. We seriously need to consider that formation. And I agree on the players too, as you told and then bring on Gerrard as a substitute. You see, Gerrard has always gone missing for some time in these high tempo passing games, against teams who pass quite well, like Southampton, Swansea and Arsenal. I feel we need another defensive mid for sure and we need to start playing Allen already. Time and again I've heard BR tell that those who don't play well will be taken away from first team. But Gerrard still plays. What I've seen from Gerrad is just something ordinary and Henderson's been better than the pair of Gerrard and Lucas in my opinion. Well, maybe we dint have a proper midfielder to replace him but now we got Allen back from injury, so if BR stands by his word he would play Allen in the next game. Just don't take me wrong, I love Gerrard, its just that everyone has a time when everything goes badly and its Stevie's time now.

08 Nov 2013 09:54:46
Wherz the width in the Dimanond formation?
We will be screwd by the pacy wingers, or the onle who plays 4-3-3, 4-4-2.

I think Andy grey invented a name for alonso type of players quarter backs!?!

06 Nov 2013 08:46:18
we had a decent start to the season but Arsenal was the first real test. I posted a week earlier addressing fellow fans about our weaknesses and problems. in the arsenal game it came obvious that there were real concerns.

Our off the ball football is the worst in the PL . OFF the ball were incredibly fragile . in the game against arsenal it was most noticable. We juts didn't press them at all. modern football is all about off the ball movement. our off the ball play is SUPER HODGESON 10 MAN BEHIND THE BALL game. we may get away wid it with mediocre teams but not top sides. we let quality midfield of arsenal play tippy tappy. Gerrard and hendo in defencive mid were LAUGHABLE. it almost seemed sometimes that our Midfield when off the ball were sleeping.it was so silly they were standing sometimes not moving an inch. standing and watching arsenal passing around.

1) Dortmund is a perfect example of off the ball pressing game. they play 5 secs get the ball back game. at a time 4/5 players attack the ball at once when not in possession. they allow opponents no time. they get the ball back and immediately lauch an attatck. is Dortmund overflooded wid stars? . Do they have the SAS?. do they have a coutinho and a gerrard?.do they have the Toures, the Skrtels, the Enriques, the sakhos?.NO. We have better players then Dortmund. but its not abt who u have rather abt how u play .nd we play LET ME GET A NAP AND MY LEG HURTS ineffective off the ball game. gerrard and company in midfield stand idly by while opponents penetrate the defence. ITS SHOCKING .

2) another example I would love to give is of Atletico madrid. they watched the success of dortmund and adkopted to their tactics and lookj at them now. they are the main rivals to barca in la liga nd my favourites to win the CL this year. they beat both barca and real earlier this season. only 1 point behind barca in the league. Are they overflooded with stars?. no.

they keep attacking their opponents. 4/5 players attack the ball at once and they get it back nd then launch attack . they press, press, press. they don't allow even 3 secs of tym. watch them play u'll knw what i'm sayin.OFF the ball game decides the fate in the modern game. and we are rubbish at it. brenda needs to urge his teams to press like Dortmund and play a 5 secs win it rush pressing

i saw last week in cl how dortmund beat arsenal. while we were battterd. they didint allo them 3 secs on the ball. I suggest people watch the game tonight and see what i'm talking abt. dortmund will again thrash them today with high intensity pressing. because that's the way to play

Our off the ball game is not the worst in the premiership. Maybe you were just going for dramatic effect or were just angry.

Arsenal exploited our lack of width for the first goal, and then the space we left chasing an equaliser for the second. Arsenal put in an outstanding midfield performance to control our attacking play. Arteta in particular was brilliant in retaining the ball and reading the game. The very job Lucas does so well so often, just not on Saturday.

Off the ball Suarez and Lucas week in and out give master classes. But we were second best to a very strong side. No need to panic.

Good point shankley

05 Nov 2013 23:23:13
Right I hate to say this but do you all not think its time for BR to manage Gerrard a bit and stop playing him every week? The fact is, Gerrard hasn't been the player he once was for a while now and playing him constantly is not going to help him. He is nearly 34 years old. I love him as a player and am not saying he is ''finished'', but he needs to be used better than he has been by the management. He disappears in games a lot more often than he used to, legs just aren't what they were.

Thoughts? ed? {Ed001's Note - tough one, I just think he needs to stop shackling him defensively, it doesn't suit his game. If Rodgers insists on two holding mids, then it is time to put someone different in there instead of him. Though he isn't playing as badly as is being made out, in my opinion, it is just that he is not performing to the level he can do.}

Whether he is playing well or not, he needs resting now and again. It is foolish to think that he can play in every game. When Scholes got older he was rested quite regularly and I think this is the way to go with Gerrard, play him in certain games but rest him for other games {Ed002's Note - Perhaps they could set up a space where Gerrard can sit in a bath chair and watch the game - obviously with a tartan blanket covering his legs so he doesn't catch a chill.}

If we are playing a 3 man midfield then maybe keep Lucas as he is and play Gerrard in the more forward position, where Henderson has been playing, then stick either Henderson or Allen (or rotate) a bit deeper in the position Gerrard has been playing in. Gerrard would be more suited here, he would be better in attack and won't have to press or be as defensive as he has been and has been struggling with. If he knackers himself out after 60 minutes then so be it, sub him for either Allen or Henderson whoever got left on the bench. Both are young and fit and would be very useful against tired legs.
Completely agree that Rodgers needs to manage Gerrard better. We want to see more of the old Gerrard back, if that means we have to see a little less of him overall then that's fine.

Agree with OP. Gerrard is not being properly managed and rested. Some very tired second half performances.

Whether that is due to BR or Gerrard player power - I don't know.

This is one area where, I hate to say it, SAF was without peer.

Ed001, its not just about unleashing him as an attacking mid mate. We need players to close down opposition really quick for the BR's gameplay to come fruitful and playing Gerrard for the whole game disrupts this. I'm not saying Gerrard should be nowhere near the first team or anything stupid as such, he's an excellent player and a brilliant captain, all i'm saying is he should be subbed off as soon as he tires, and give it all for the time he stays on pitch. Gerrard is trying his best to save his energy to play the whole game. Well in games against weaker opposition this may work but against teams with an energetic midfield, he just disrupts our tactics. My suggestion would be to actually bring him on for another player in the second half, he'll give everything he's got and this might even help us in case we're trailing. {Ed001's Note - I agree that he is not able to work with the intensity required, I am not sure that has ever been what his game was about though. Rafa put him on the wing or in a free role because he lacks defensive discipline, which is why I don't want him to be forced into that role. Not only does it not suit his strengths, but it also does not suit his attitude to the game.}