02 Mar 2015 08:57:34
Cant help but feel that if BR sticks too the 343 or 442 diamond all next season even Chelsea and city will be frantically trying to keep pace with us. He's found 2 formations that work and that suit him, Enough with the 433 BR you don't get it like you think you do. If he promises to never use 433 again he should be allowed to keep his job in my opinion. Also no more squad buying, If you can't get a top class player in the position you need to improve it goes to one of the young lads I.E 1 maybe 2 huge signings and no more.
02 Mar 2015 09:09:09
i don't think 4 3 3 was the problem. it was the slow possession and no pressing that was the problem. the 3 4 3 only came up to fit in the types of players we have.
02 Mar 2015 10:05:50
I think playing a high pressing game from the beginning of the season will cripple us towards the end. It's a fine balance and I would much prefer us finish stronger, than start quickly and drop off towards the end of the season.
Make no bones about it, we were poor at the beginning of the season, for a multitide of reasons, but trying to sustain a pressing game all season will be practically impossible. It's about picking up those 3 points regardless how we're playing initially. It would be great to be flying all season, but it rarely every happens. I think back to Utd winning title after title, and they would always start off sluggishly, and then the intensity would increase as the season progressed. The key being during that sluggish period, still picking up the 3 pts. We didn't do that this season and that's what effectively killed off the title challenge before Christmas.
We definitely need to be better pre-Christmas, that's for sure, and I think in time, we'll get that right balance.
{Ed001's Note - why would it cripple us? Can't players be rested or rotated to avoid it? That was the reasoning given for buying so many players in the summer, so any nonsense about burn out is simply an excuse. Players have ample time to rest, if they are looking tired then the club should scale back the training to allow them to recover or rest them from a game or two.}
02 Mar 2015 10:35:08
Ed01,
I guess it would depend on the level of pressing. I cannot see any team maintaining the level of pressing we're now showing over a 50 game season.
It's not just about burn out, it's tactically getting it right from the get-go, especially having such an influx of new payers. So even if the press is adopted from Game 1, there's no garuntee it'll be as effective as it will be in say Game 20, as it'll take time for the squad to learn it and put it to work on match days. A high press is great when it works, but it can also expose you badly if a few players don't know what they're doing.
Like I said, a change needs to be made to our performances pre-Christmas, there's no doubting that.
{Ed001's Note - why can't a team maintain the pressing? There is absolutely no reason when there is plenty of chances for them to rest. If they can't manage it then the training is wrong. There is no real reason for the level to drop. That is what a manager is for, to manage the squad to keep the intensity up.}
02 Mar 2015 11:02:14
I don't think I've ever seen a team maintain such a high level of press for the entire season, certainly not in the Premier League?
I think we can press, no argument there. We can still set up to press from Game 1, I'm just not sure to what level of pressing can be applied to ensure we're still hitting that intesity over 50 games. Maybe one for the Sports Science Bods.
We killed ourselves this season with the personal on the pitch for a pressing game, but I guess that opens up a whole range of other debates.
02 Mar 2015 11:04:57
You can't press all the time.
You have to press when it's clever to do it.
That is most of the time but not all of the time and it does have an effect not only in the game you are playing but also over the course of a season.
But I think we are a 100% better team by pressing so I tend to agree that we have a big squad and that should be used more.
But we had a piss poor start to the season and loads of new players who have taken time to learn the pressing that we do.
I would say most of the squad are now on board with the pressing and so it won't be an issue at the start of next season as it has been this year because we won't have a completely new team.
I agree with most though and Ed when they say that pressing is a massive part of our game and that was missing earlier in the season and we suffered as a result.
{Ed001's Note - but, and this is a big but, we started the season with new players that were almost entirely brought in from teams that played the pressing system. Southampton applied an even higher press under Poch, we bought a number of their players who could have easily integrated into a pressing system. There is no reason we could not have applied it from day one, other than that the manager made a decision not to go with it until it was too late. If we fade late on, then manage the damn team to see us through it, but we simply can't afford to give up 3 months of the season!}
02 Mar 2015 11:56:48
I take your point ed.
But Football is about partnerships and team work and that does not happen straight away with a new set of players.
Rodgers (and you may think this is a poor excuse) has stated that the longer he works with the players on the training field the better they would get and to be fair that has happened.
Lallana is brilliant at pressing but he has had a season of disruption, Lovren had a spell of bad form and Lambert in my opinion can't press at the speed we need him to.
Balotelli can't press at all, he is learning slowly though.
So maybe it was a combination of factors as to why we did not press right from the start of the season.
I would go along with the notion that it took too long for Rodgers to fix but better late than never and I don't think it should cost him his job.
{Ed001's Note - I don't disagree, nor feel it is an excuse that the longer he works with a player the better they get, that is how it should be. We were only missing one player from last season's side at the beginning, so again I ask why change the system, rather than just slowly bleeding the newbies in over the course of the season as they get used to it? Any team successful over a period of time only evolves gradually, Rodgers tried to tear it down and start again in the summer. That is a massive mistake and he has to learn from it. Start off with the same system and slowly alter it slightly to fit in the new players as the season goes on. Paisley would never have ripped up his system in the summer, but he did play different formations and make tactical alterations on a game by game basis.
We were nearly there last season, it only needed a tweak, instead we got a complete rebuild. That has set us back another season. How many more times can we do that?}
02 Mar 2015 11:56:50
I'm with ed. There's no reason why a high pressing system cannot be played in every game as long as your squad is big enough. Southampton had a much smaller squad last year than we do this year and played that system all year.
If our first eleven is lacking then the player can be rotated to give them a break. Lowering the intensity of pressing for even a few minutes just gives teams the space they want.
Nevada
02 Mar 2015 12:39:45
Nevada,
Southampton finished 8th and had form of L L W W L W L L D W W D from their last 12 games. So 5 losses from 12 games, a 40% loss ratio.
You can adopt any approach you want all season long, it doesn't mean it's going to work though.
{Ed001's Note - to be fair, Southampton were expected to struggle, so a 40% win ratio is probably about as good as they could expect to get. Those stats are meaningless, as are all stats.}
02 Mar 2015 13:23:37
Play what works and don`t break what is not broken and then fix it when your job is on the line. He bought players that play the high press YET played them in a cripling system of pass-pass. That is just stupidity. Do what wrks and screw the rest. Barca play the high press every game they play. Has that hurt them globally over the years? If he thinks we can`t sustain that over a season, then manage the squad better which is his job. Making an excuse as to why he reverted to the slow press by saying we woud not have been able to sustain it over a season is ludicrous. We have only played well for 1 and a half seasons of the 3 seasons he`s been here and that was when he employed the high press. We will not win the PL doing thigs right half the time. That is a fact! Do what works all the time until the other teams figure you out and if they can`t, then keep doing it. Footie is an easy game. Only managers and their worthless "philosophies" make it complicated.
02 Mar 2015 14:14:23
Ed01 - stats may be meaningless but if a poster is putting a team in the spotlight as an example for us to follow, then it's fair to highlight just how effective they were, and in Southamptons case, they finished 8th.
Redohio - how do you know he bought players for the high press? Just another assumption, or if we're being honest, a regurgitated ED01 statement. Lallana, Lovren & Lambert played for a pressing team, I don't think I ever heard Rodgers mention he bought them for the press. In fact, it was more for their technique and versatility, and in Lovrens case, leadership and organisation. The others having not seen enough of them prior to playing for us (Ballotelli aside), I cannot comment on, but to suggest they were bought for a high press is an assumption, not fact.
I think using Barca as an example for any footballing discussion will badly misrepresent whoever the other team is. They were undoubtedly one of the greatest teams in the last 20-30 years. The quality they had runs a lot deeper than what pressing system they deployed.
As I said, early on this season we were poor. But it wasn't just a lack of pressing, it was a mess from top to bottom all over the pitch. And you're right, we won't win the Premier League doings things half right, but I will also say it's going to be very damn tough winning the Premier League doing everything right as well.
{Ed001's Note - Southampton finishing 8th is well ahead of where they were expected to finish, so I fail to see your point there?}
02 Mar 2015 15:18:01
Ed01 - my point was this:
Me - "I think a high pressing game will cripple us towards the end of the season."
Nevada - "Southampton deployed a high pressing system all season."
Me - "They lost 5 out of the last 12 games and finished 8th."
So, my point is, deploying that high pressing system all season doesn't gauruntee success, and using Southampton as the example, did in fact show a decrease in performance towards the end of the season.
{Ed001's Note - but it brought them an increase in performance throughout the season as a whole. So which way do you want it?}
02 Mar 2015 15:59:37
Ed01 -
LOL, we're going to end up going around in circles again, and end up disagreeing for the 1000th time.
As I said in my 1st post on the topic, it's about finding a balance. I don't think there is any team in the Premier League that can play the intensive high press we're now playing for the entire duration of the season and in our case, atleast, win the title from it. So far, I don't think it's ever happened in the Premier League. Utd being the best example since the Premier League started - they were notably slow starters, and then gathered momentum in the 2nd half of the season - very similiar to us, except during that slow period, they still managed to pick up the 3pts, hence the reason why last season we came within 2 points of winning the title, because we were still in contention at Christmas.
What I agree wholeheartedly with is you adopt the best approach for the team from Day 1, and we didn't do that this season and suffered badly because of that. So yes, a pressing game from the beginning would have yielded more points to this point, but there's no evidence to suggest, yet atleast, that we could then perform as well in the 2nd half of the season.
{Ed001's Note - I wasn't arguing with you on this, I was just pointing out that merely taking the stats on their own means nothing. It is like those form tables the TV are so fond of, they are utterly meaningless as they fail to take any outside forces into consideration at all. Stats are just drivel to fill airtime in the main, unless you spend time analysing them and bring all kinds of other issues into the equation.}
02 Mar 2015 18:23:14
JM, you lose there, mate. Can, Moreno, Marko, Lallana are players who are currently thriving in the high press because they have the energy, technique, fitness and pace to play that way and City could NEVER match that. That is not an assumption nor as U say, a regurgitated ED01 comment. It is what we are seeing with our very own eyes. Don`t need to be a genius to figure that out. Balo is the only one that was the head-scratcher on that level. I suggest you do your own analysis and use r own eyes instead of making lame comments. N BTW, I don`t need any of the Ed`s to form an opinion on footie because I played the game at a very decent level (in France) as well as followed the gamme for 3 decades. Nuff said!
02 Mar 2015 18:42:42
I can't disagree with any of that ed001. nice one for the reply.
{Ed001's Note - no worries.}
03 Mar 2015 10:31:05
Redohio :-
There's a difference between buying players for the high press and players thriving playing a high press.
Anyway, I think this particular thread has run it's course so I'm not going to extend it any further. What I will do is offer my apologies as some of my comments to you lately have been rude. It would be good to wipe the slate clean. Take it easy.