12 Mar 2015 18:20:51
I'm going to give my honest opinion on Joe Allen. No doubt some of you will disagree but here goes.
The thing with Allen is every time he plays I get nervous. Probably just as nervous as I get when youngsters make their debut, and I've seen nothing in his 100+ premier league appearances and European appearances to suggest he is good enough to be a regular starter for us. Then you have to consider whether he offers something coming from the bench. If we are losing would bringing him on help us in a more attacking way? No, because he isn't an attacking player. Would he help us defensively if we need to grind out a win? He might do a half decent job, but he's no Lucas. Even his passing ability is nothing special. So if he isn't a starter and he doesn't offer much coming from the bench then what is the use in keeping him? For domestic cup games? I'd rather see a youngster get a chance if I'm honest.
What we need is players on the bench that WILL come on and make a difference, and when called up to start WILL be an adequate stand in and even be at the level to compete for a starting spot.
I think were now at the stage where we have a lot of players at the club who don't merit a place. It's probably a bit harsh of me to single out Allen when there are many other players in the same boat, but hopefully, this summer will see a lot of outgoings with just a handful of players being signed to improve the squad ready to challenge next season.
Red Rum
12 Mar 2015 20:27:20
Did you not watch the Blackburn game redrum !!
12 Mar 2015 20:53:23
Over the last 6 games or so, joe Allen has been one of our best players. Whenever I see him without gerrard, he's usually been pretty decent. Spurs away last season for example.
He's still fairly young and I think/ hope next year when Gerrard leaves a few players will really step up. I wouldn't be surprised if Allens one of them.
I therefore fully disagree and hope to see him and Lucas competing for DM spot next year.
12 Mar 2015 20:57:56
I feel that whilst he may not really excel at anything, he is reasonably strong in most aspects of his game. I think his work ethic, willingness to tackle and ability to retain possession well make him a useful player. He also seems like a really nice guy, so it's a shame he gets so much stick.
12 Mar 2015 21:01:28
Redrum, I think you are failing to take into account the injuries Allen has had at unfortunate times. It seems he has never had a real sustained run in the team since his arrival.
He has I feel definitely got the talent to become a very important player for Lfc much the same as Lucas did in similar circumstances ie took a fair time to settle and gain the confidence to perform at his true level and then was accepted and appreciated by the fans.
If joe, who is coming to his prime age wise, can continue at his recent level for the reminder of the season, surely he will flourish and hopefully become a perfect Lucas replacement.
12 Mar 2015 22:18:02
Comparing him to Lucas, Couts or lallana or to any other player is another false argument. JA is good at what he does which is his ability to keep possession REGARDLESS of the amount of players around, neat and tidy on the ball and can tackle. Dos he have faults? Yes and who doesn`t BUT he is a very good player when he is not played as a DM or w/ SG. When played w/ Hendo, he is really good as he showed in the past 6 games especially vs City where he IMO, bossed a midfield containing a certain Yaya Toure (not the first time he`s schooled Toure BTW). If he keeps improving, he wil be a good player moving forward. Just give him a chance and stop comparing him to players and asking him to do what he clearly can`t nor equiped to do.
12 Mar 2015 22:23:10
Good player but not ecc quality as proved in the group stages. Decent squad player but could still be upgraded
13 Mar 2015 00:25:16
Lucas is a far better defensive midfielder than Allen, that's a fact, in fact lucas makes more tackles per game than any other player in the league.
However Allen has deputised well for Lucas.
13 Mar 2015 07:15:06
Joe Allens greatest strengths are tidy passing and interceptions and recycling possession
13 Mar 2015 02:09:13
Ohio, read all of this.
Considering we want to challenge for the title, I think it's best that we compare Allen to the playmakers of our rivals. In particular City and Chelsea.
Yaya Toure - 91.5 passes per game
Fabregas - 82.1 passes per game
Allen - 36.4 passes per game
Yaya Toure - 7 goals, 1 assist
Fabregas - 2 goals, 15 assists
Allen - 0 goals, 0 assists
If anyone is our playmaker it is Henderson. He's the one who gets on the ball and dictates play.
Henderson - 58.8 passes per game, 4 goals and 7 assists. Albeit not at the standard of Yaya and Fabregas but he is still young and improving.
What you need in any top midfield is:
a) A playmaker who dictates the game and get's involved offensively and defensively
b) A defensive midfielder who does the dirty work
c) An attacking midfielder who has the creativity and vision to feed the forwards
City have:
a) Yaya
b) Fernandinho
c) Silva
Chelsea have:
a) Fabregas
b) Matic
c) Oscar
Liverpool have:
a) Henderson
b) Lucas
c) Coutinho
Yes Allen is just a back up player but If we want to challenge for trophies our playmakers (possession players) need to have more in their locker than just "keeping possession". Any one can play short simple passes even Joeys Barton plays 48.8 passes on average per game at a good success rate, but you wouldn't class him as good enough for us would you?
My point is this. Allen is a squad player, therefore he should be competing with Henderson for a starting place. However, he would never, I repeat never get the nod ahead of a fully fit Henderson. He just isn't good enough. So why have a player who is no where near good enough to compete for a starting place? Why not replace him with a player that is good enough to compete with Henderson, and who can make an impact on the pitch?
If I'm honest Can could easily compete with Henderson for that position, and I think that you would agree Can is much better than Allen at just 20 years old. Therefore, why have Allen as 3rd choice when you could have a youngster such as Rossiter getting a chance?
Can I just add, I'm not giving Allen "stick", I am merely, pointing out a simple observation and backing up my view with evidence and common sense.
Red Rum
{Ed001's Note - wouldn't Coutinho be the playmaker? A playmaker is not meant to get involved defensively, I have no idea where you got that idea from. Playmakers used to be the Dalglish deep lying forward role, they were meant to make the play when you have the ball, hence the name.}
13 Mar 2015 07:35:20
Every team needs players who do their jobs well but are not the superstars of the team.
I think when Allen came back into the team recently he was fighting for his LFC career and for me, he has come out fighting and I would be very happy to see him next season either in the first team or as a squad player.
Why is it that people always seem to not notice what some players do in games?
13 Mar 2015 07:59:57
Without expounding, Joe will never be a regular starter at LFC and will be a good squad player and seemingly happy to be one.
13 Mar 2015 08:00:17
Joe Allen is our midfield version of what John O'Shea was for United. He's an option that you can start or can come off the bench, and who shouldn't make you too nervous. Nor should you expect too much from.
As others have pointed out, ideally you'd have Lucas x2, Hendo x3, Sterling x2 and Coutinho x2 as your midfield squad options. But you can't keep that many top players happy, no-one can. Everyone needs a Joe Allen
13 Mar 2015 08:51:16
Stats done tell the full story, you don't need stats to see in the last few games that he has the ability to control games and has been one of our best players.Seems to work very well playing alongside Henderson instead of him. I've always thought he was a good squad player but it's good to see him find some form and show his ability after a very much stop/ start career at LFC due to injuries.
13 Mar 2015 09:05:16
Allen played brilliantly only a couple of games ago against City.
13 Mar 2015 09:32:02
Ed every player needs to do their bit defensively. Especially the midfield. A midfield of Coutinho, Lucas and Henderson would have Lucas and Henderson doing the most defending with Coutinho in the "free" role behind the strikers. For me a playmaker is a player who gets on the ball and runs the show a la Yaya Toure for City and Fabregas for Chelsea. Yes, you have your fancy players who you can call playmakers as they use their creativity to feed the forwards, but regardless of the wording I think you know what I mean. Simple stuff really. The amount of disagrees just shows the lack of knowledge by a lot of people. At the end of the day despite a few decent games (which I have praised Allen for) Allen is not good enough for a challenging team. A lot of people are happy that he is a "good guy" and a player who is happy to be a squad player, well I'm sorry but I don't settle for any player who is happy to be a squad player. Every player should be fighting for a starting place.
Red Rum
13 Mar 2015 10:12:14
So because people disagree with you it's ' lack of knowledge' what makes your opinion any better than anyone's else's? The fact the manager is happy with Allen and is starting him shows what he thinks of him as a player. Comparing him to fabregas and toure is ridiculous, both those regularly play in the hole behind the strikers hence they are encouraged to push for goals, to the eds point coutihno would be the comparable player. Shows your lack of knowledge .
13 Mar 2015 10:26:18
Swish clearly you don't watch Chelsea or City do you?
Red Rum
13 Mar 2015 10:41:48
Most of toures goals come from when he's pushed forward when they need a goal- behind the strikers.Fabregas does little defensive work. He feeds the strikers as coutihno does hence his high assist rate. Clearly you don't watch them.
13 Mar 2015 10:48:41
Hardly fair to criticise others peoples knowledge of football when you yourself are comparing JA to those players,
That's almost as foolish as asking who's better, Mignolet or Drogba.
He doesn't even play as far forward as Hendo like, so how you can describe him as a playmaker I've no idea,
We'd have less points from the last few games with Allen, yes we have kids but would you have thrown Ojo or the like in against Toure?
13 Mar 2015 10:49:48
I apologise for using the term "lack of knowledge". I woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.
Red Rum
13 Mar 2015 11:36:53
The thing is Welshboy, a player who's primary attribute is passing/recycling possession should be compared to players who do the same thing, You have to compare players with our rivals otherwise you are not going to keep up with them. In my opinion a midfield of Lucas, Hendo and Coutinho could easily be a title winning midfield, but if you don't have adequate back up for those players you are going to fall short.
The reason we have done well defensively recently is because of the new formation. When we defend we have 5 at the back. It's always going to be difficult to break down. Now let's say that next season Rodgers switches back to 4 defenders. If Lucas gets injured and is replaced by Allen we are going to struggle because he's not got the defensive qualities that Lucas has. Likewise, if Henderson picks up an injury and Allen comes in for him, we lose the attacking threat that Henderson poses. So where does Allen fit in?
Red Rum
13 Mar 2015 11:47:06
Allen is a bit like Henderson - not in style but in the fact that he seems to play better without Gerrard on the pitch and the style he brings.
13 Mar 2015 13:44:45
How is Toure's game about recycling possession? He's a power midfielder. And again with Fabregas, he's a no 10, not a central midfielder. He has no defensive capability at all, which Allen has lots of.
Sorry murder, your trying to make Toure and Fabregas into something they aren't in order to prove your point.
And the formation? Give me a break, your as bad as Rodgers with your 'the formation takes the credit'
Formations don't score or keep clean sheets,
Allen is our deepest midfielder. As Lucas is out and Hendo is further. So ask yourself if Allen's stats are that much worse than Coquelins, or Matics, or Carricks, and try to use all the relevant stats for a player of his position,
I could call Gerrard very average because he never scores any overhead kicks, but I don't expect that from him,
Nor do I expect masses of goals and assists from our deepest midfielder, a midfielder who's injury problems means he's never started more than 6 games in a row.
Rant over.
13 Mar 2015 15:07:40
Yaya Toure, Fabregas and Henderson play the same role for their teams. They are the engine. They are the ones that like to get on the ball and dictate the game. Simple to comprehend, surely? You can not say that Yaya Toure and Fabregas don't recycle possession when they are making over 80-90 passes per game at a high success rate.
Fernandinho, Matic and Lucas are the defensive midfielders for their teams. They are the ones that do the dirty work protecting the defence. Surely that is simple to understand too?
So which category does Allen fit into? Is he a playmaker or is he a defensive midfielder? For me he is neither one nor the other. He doesn't have the vision and ability to be a playmaker and he doesn't have the position sense and strength to be a defensive midfielder.
He is a mid table player at best. I really don't understand how you think he warrants a place in the squad.
Red Rum
13 Mar 2015 16:37:39
Enjoy reading the thread. Buy would have to disagree with you rum.
I doubt very much allen has played as many minutes as Those two per game.
also midfielders don't just fit into 2 boxes there is a lot more to it. Lucas is a better tackler then modric. That don't mean he is a better player now does it.
Hope to see a lot more of allen for the rest of the season. He gives us a lot more going forward then lucas And a better balance in midfield with Henderson.
13 Mar 2015 17:00:57
Rum, Allen has had several good games for us and that is a fact. I never refer to stats because for every stat you use to support your case, I can come up with a stat to debunk that stat as well. What I DO use is my eyes and based on those, Allen is a good player who can clearly hold his own in midfield when in form, and even the specialist on TV gave him rave reviews and to the point that some said we missed him vs Blackburn (disagree with that btw). Whether he is a starter or not is another debate BUT comparing him to other players with other qualities are on fair because if you do that, I too can see a certain qualities that NONE of our other midfielders have i.e the uncanny ability to pass with both feet, comfortable on the ball under pressure, incisive passing ability and the ability to anticipate and pressure the opposition in dangerous areas as well as the ability to shield the ball away from the opposition due to his great understanding of angles. All these were on show in the past 6 games especially vs City. Hence, any player who can do that warrants a place in the squad.
13 Mar 2015 17:26:57
You are correct Bris. Some players are better than others in different aspects of their game. The reason Henderson will always be chosen over Allen is because like Allen, Henderson is good at recycling possession, but he ADDS an attacking threat too. The reason Lucas will always be chosen over Allen is because like Allen he is good at recycling possession, but he ADDS defensive qualities too.
Anyone can "recycle possession", but if that's all you can do then in my eyes you are not good enough. You have to have more in your locker at this level.
Red Rum
13 Mar 2015 17:41:36
I think a lot of you are basing your opinions on the City game. To me it is clear to see that City have problems in midfield defensively. Toure is quality on the ball but doesn't do enough defensively and they made it easy for us by sitting off.
What I think we should do is have this discussion after the final game of the season. I always support the players playing for the shirt and I always want them to do well, so hopefully Allen can change my opinion between now and then.
Red Rum
13 Mar 2015 17:49:16
Almost 3 yrs, 90 games, 1 goal, no assists. He's played well in what? 8-10 games. Awesome, just what we need
13 Mar 2015 18:56:45
have to say red rum i agree with everything you have said about allen .not a top player and never will be, average at best and would not get into any of the top teams .ant
13 Mar 2015 20:49:38
My assessment is not based on the City game alone. He has had top perfs for us through out his time here and in fact, I feel he was a true cog in our midfield last year when we played the diamond. A midtable player nor an average player does not have those qualities I hav e observed in his game. I agree, he is not flashy and won`t do stepovers and scores worldies. But true football followers, like yourself, are able to see his qualities if you look closely. Anyway, I can agree with the fat that we should discuss the issue at the end of the season. Rum. We can reconvene after the season for a full appraisal.
13 Mar 2015 21:25:11
I couldn't care less about step overs and worldies. There's nothing I like better than a good team goal. Simple, quick, short passes, but the players have to be up to standard. I look forward to continuing this discussion In a couple of months.
Red Rum
13 Mar 2015 22:59:08
To your point red-rum. A good team goal is simple quick, short passes. That is exactly what JA excels at, even if he's not the person that delivers the final assist- he usually starts the move.I think on the times he has got forward he's been pretty unlucky with the keepers always pulling off one their saves of the match against him too!
14 Mar 2015 08:16:04
I am Joe Allens biggest critic but in terms of comparing them to backup midfielders at top clubs Allen in my opinion does a better job than I have seen Fernando do all season along with John Obi Mikel. Comparing him to Uniteds Midfield who are another top 4 club at this moment in time he is better than Blind or Carrick on current form. His problem for me is he suffers so many injuries he can never get into a rhythm his first season for many of the games at the start he was fantastic keeping out Sahin and played brilliant up until his first injury then they continue to knock him. Much like Lallana at times this season when he first returns from injury. In terms of Allen being a squad player I think he is good enough for that
14 Mar 2015 08:42:34
The longest thread in history this one. Fair play for apologizing Rum.
We all have days like that.
14 Mar 2015 11:51:43
I would be happy with a starting midfield of Lucas, Henderson and Coutinho for next season. My only concern is having the strength in depth to cope with European fixtures (should we be in Europe) and injuries etc. I don't want us to be turning up at the Bernabeu with a team line up anything like the one we saw in November. That goes for other positions too. You don't play Borini against Ramos and Varane and expect him to score.
As I have said I don't think Allen is good enough to backup/compete with Lucas or Henderson, but it's not just Allen that concerns me.
I don't believe Borini, Lambert and Balotelli are good enough to backup/compete with Sturridge.
I don't think Coutinho has any adequate backup hence the amount of games he has played this season. Look how knackered he was before Rodgers decided to rest him.
In defence I don't think we're too bad. Toure, Johnson, Enrique, Coates and Manquillo will hopefully be moved on in the summer. That would mean we will definitely need a right back. With Wisdom and Ilori returning from loan as well as Flanagan returning from injury we should be fine at the back.
In goal we have problems. Mignolet isn't good enough to be first choice, and Jones isn't good enough as second choice. If Ward/Vigouroux aren't good enough to be backup then 2 goalkeepers will be needed in my opinion.
Therefore, if we want to compete at the top we must improve in various areas of the squad. It's all well and good having the numbers to cope with fixtures, but if you don't have the quality you are going to struggle as we have done this season.
Red Rum