17 Jun 2015 14:31:33
All the top teams in Europe and esp the premiership play with a strong defensive midfielder - just look at how much better Arsenal played this year with one.
I'm a big Lucas fan but even if he stays he simply will not be available for every game. I know BR is collecting midfielders but he needs to sell some and get someone like Kondogbia in. I don't necessarily subscribe to the "we need a big brute in the middle" ethos but we have been bullied out of far too many games for too long. Even an Nzonzi would help protect the back 4.
Just my view.
17 Jun 2015 15:10:32
Fair views but I disagree. All the top teams play with a deep lying playmaker who reads the game well.
Real have Kroos, Juventus have Pirlo, Barca have Busquets, Bayern have Alonso.
The idea of football is to push the opposition so far back that you don't need a brute like N'Zonzi.
That's why Lucas and Matic are the best in the Prem. They aren't just brutes, they're excellent at reading the game and always look to play the ball forward to start an attack.
Coquelin, N'Zonzi, Bentaleb, Mason, Wanyama etc are all massively over rated and wouldn't make it in any other top league due to a complete lack of technical ability.
Schneiderlin and Carrick are both good examples of classy holding midfielders. As are people like Cabaye, Medel, Strootman, De Rossi etc.
Why do you think Barca got rid of Yaya? He's a brute with no ability to read the game. The simple fact is that brains are better than brawn. It's about time English football recognised that.
{Ed001's Note - Madrid play Kroos because they lost their defensive midfielder and are having to shoehorn someone in there. The exact same thing that cost us so badly last season, which also cost them the league. Pirlo is the single most over rated player currently playing, if the other ten players were not so far above the others, and worked so hard to cover for him, Juve would struggle with him, just like they did against Barca, who found it easy to overrun the Juve midfield. Busquets is not a playmaker, he does not playmake, he looks to give the ball to the playmaker, Iniesta, or Messi. He is a holding midfielder. I really think you are missing the subtle differences that differentiate things. Alonso you can not count, he is a special case because he is a defensive midfielder who is also a playmaker. There is no one else like him currently playing. You are so wrong about Coquelin and N'Zonzi, they would be fine, they are better than you give them credit for. Mason is not even the same style player in any shape or form, so why you include him I don't understand. Schneiderlin is NOT a holding midfielder, Wanyama holds, he is a central midfielder that sometimes drops in alongside him when they are under pressure, there is a big difference. Cabaye is an attacking midfielder! This is just a nonsense post EMS. Yaya was let go because he is not a holding midfielder and kept charging forward and was unhappy at being played in defence.}
17 Jun 2015 15:47:19
Wow EMS, bet you wish you could erase that post!
I agree with pretty much everything Ed001 has said here. Even Pirlo looked shocking in the semi finals as well, hovering around but not adding any defensive steel it reminded me of Gerrard the past year.
I think Coquelin has done well and he plays it forward starting attacks. I don't get all the fuss over Mason, don't know how he got into the England squad. I think Wanyama is a very solid defensive midfielder, don't really rate Nzonzi but if we were looking for someone for DM I'd rather Wanyama.
17 Jun 2015 15:50:41
Edd001 man I hate trying to get your input because you and the edds have enough to do and it's not fair asking.
but I wish there were more Liverpool fans like you who have a clue about the game and players on the pages especially this onE!
{Ed001's Note - thank you.}
17 Jun 2015 16:12:20
Agreed with Ed01 about most apart from Pirlo being overated.
Maybe now for sure i would agree but for club and country he has been great often imo, and i don't personally think that you can always say that was because of the people playing alongside him.
{Ed001's Note - but it was, he has never done any work for the team, they have always had to do everything for him. A truly great player breaks sweat.}
17 Jun 2015 16:14:26
lucas "the best in the prem" OMW, can i have some of what EMS is on please!
17 Jun 2015 16:22:21
I agree in principle with EMS, the eds are knowledgeable but they aren't gods. There opinions can be just as wrong as ours. I don't think we have to have a primarily defensive player in midfield to be successful.
17 Jun 2015 16:23:54
''Pirlo is the single most over rated player currently playing, if the other ten players were not so far above the others, and worked so hard to cover for him, Juve would struggle with him, just like they did against Barca, who found it easy to overrun the Juve midfield.''
Thank you ED001 I thought I was alone in this :'-)It's brought a tear to my eye. I genuinely thought I was the only person who thought the other 10 juve players prop him up
{Ed001's Note - it annoys me, he is quite brilliant with his passing, but so lazy, how many times do players just run past him with the ball at his feet and he does absolutely nothing. I don't know how his team mates don't punch him! It drives me mad seeing a player not even blocking passing lanes or acting as an obstacle to runs.}
17 Jun 2015 16:33:14
Why would I wish to erase it? My opinion hasn't changed just because Ed001 disagrees with me.
I'm just going to agree to disagree tbh because it's not worth the grief I'll get off other posters Ed. And when I agree with you people just say I'm rehashing what you said or that I copy your opinions.
The beauty of football is that different people have different ideas of how it should be played. It's almost entirely subjective and in my opinion it is best to play with a technically gifted holding midfielder who lioks to play quick passes into the feet of dangerous players (which in my opinion is playmaking; it doesn't have to be an 80 yard raking diagonal) and that the whole team should press forward as a unit. If you sit back and play compact then yes you need brutes who can win physical battles as the play will be narrowed. Mourinho has made a career out of this.
I just have a different idea of the holding role and a different idea of how the game in general should be played. Doesn't mean my post is nonsense and it certainly doesn't mean I want to erase it because you're all siding with the Editor.
N'Zonzi in my opinion is identical to M'Vila and nobody wanted him.
{Ed001's Note - N'Zonzi has a lot more ability than he is given credit for. Reminds me of the way people that don't see a lot of him just see how awkward he appears, Crouch being another one, but fail to spot that they are actually very good on the ball.}
17 Jun 2015 16:48:26
Cheers muscatred. I get slaughtered if I agree with the Eds and slaughtered when I disagree with them. Can't bloody win haha.
17 Jun 2015 17:12:25
They say the same about Sakho
17 Jun 2015 17:43:15
Ems
It's not about disagree or agree. Most of what you said is not viable nor valid. You fail to recognise the actual positions' of the players you mentioned and the quailty of player. Made for the recycle bin so you can come back again with sense and actual knowledge of what you say
17 Jun 2015 17:49:27
I'd have to disagree with EMS here.
You can't quote teams in other leagues as an example of how to play in the premier league in my opinion. The premier league is very different to La Liga, Serie A or the Bundesliga.
We were at our defensive best in recent times when we had Mascherano as our DM. Like Suarez, I don't like the way he treated LFC but you have to admit they were brilliant at what they did. Lucas didn't get a look in when we had Mascherano and there is a very good reason why.
In my opinion we have never replaced Mascherano or Hyypia and that is why our defence is so bad these days.
17 Jun 2015 17:59:38
Arsenal didn't do anything differently to any other year!
17 Jun 2015 18:26:50
Looks like I started a healthy debate which is what it's all about really - thanks to Ed 01 and everyone else for your thoughts and views.
As I said at the start, just my view and there are plenty of managers out there who disagree - just not too many of the successful ones.
{Ed001's Note - it is something I have been saying for a while, though I want Medel personally to fill that role, because he is better on the ball.}
17 Jun 2015 18:53:39
Agreed re Medel but that looks unlikely.
M sissoko looks another loss bet (rumoured today) and while not a true DM offers a fantastic athletic ability to disrupt whilst also popping up in the other box.
I mentioned Nzonzi because he doesn't get a mention and is v underrated.
To one of the posts above that said Arsenal did nothing new - they did, they promoted Coquelin to the first team, played him as a true DM and sacrificed one of their many attacking midfielders - take note Brendan - also look at Chelsea.
18 Jun 2015 00:04:22
Pistol has Vidal, Marqicio and Pogba doing the running just like he had Gattuso doing all the running for him during his Milan days. Great player, great passer and tremendous ability but is and never will be a DM