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23 Jun 2015 11:46:31
There's a bit of a battle between people moaning about the team and people moaning about the moaners at the moment. In the interest of debate I hope the below is a considered view about why the anti-rodgers side should re-consider their most common gripes.

There are two major sticks used to beat Rodgers at the moment. The first is the constant talk of playing people out of position ('I bet we'll play that new striker at left back' etc). Can was moved into defence hugely successfully, it was only when he was tried as a make shift right back (because we had no one playing there who was performing) that he came a cropper. A number of players were tried at right wing back because the system that worked for last season (and it did work for much of it) needed someone in that role but we didn't have anyone suited to it, therefore a number of options were tried and none with real success. Sterling was played up front when we had recognised strikers on the bench but that is because not a single one of them did anything to deserve a chance in the first team whilst Sterling did. Gerrard was played further back at the expense of other players because there was huge pressure, from every side, to have him in the team when he was fit. These players were played out of position but there was valid reasons for all of them. Hopefully come the start of the season the squad will be better balanced and there'll be less need to move them around.

The other stick is that Rodgers is ignoring youth players ('why are we not using this player when it's obvious the team would be better with him in it' etc). I'll use Illori's example as he's everyone's favourite at the moment. Illori could be a good player, he certainly seems to have a number of good attributes, but he's looked good in other leagues on in youth games. These performances do not prove that he is right for Liverpool and the Premier League. A number of people who have significant experience in the game have looked at him and decided that a loan is better than having him in the first team. This could be because of a number of reasons, home sickness, attitude, development or perhaps in training he has simply not been good enough. What is clear is that not only do we not know if he would succeed in the first team but also we are less likely to know than the Liverpool Manager and coaching staff if this is the case. Yes you can only know if he can cut it by playing him but youth players have to reach a certain standard in training or on loan before given their chance and I expect Illori hasn't reached that standard yet (or that he hasn't reached a good enough standard that we can give him assurances about future playing time and he therefore wants to leave). If it was obvious he would improve the team he'd be given his chance, the fact that he hasn't suggests he's not as good as we'd like him to be.

{Ed001's Note - I only needed to read a couple of lines before I realised there was little point reading the rest as that was so completely wrong. Can played well for a couple of games at centre back, then the opposition targeted him, which is why we moved to a flat back four with him at right back. So to suggest it was 'hugely successfully' usage of Can at right centre back is false and negates your whole defence of Rodgers constant misuse of players. I really can't be bothered to waste my time with the rest, if that kind of falsehood is the basis of your argument.}

Agree3 Disagree7

23 Jun 2015 12:18:51
I'm with you Ed - probably the most ridiculous post this close season. None of the recognised strikers ( apart from maybe Balotelli ) were given a run of consecutive games to establish themselves, and there is only one person to blame - his name begins with Brendan and ends in Rodgers - and they are players he bought.

23 Jun 2015 12:25:16
How do you justify Manquillo on loan for us and Wisdom on Loan to westbrom ? Simply clueless by BR.

23 Jun 2015 12:29:42
well ed001 has took care of Can's point . as for illori the lad clocked faster than ronaldo fact, the lad was the most sought after youth prospect a couple of years ago. the lad chose liverpool. LFC paid a huge 7.5 million for him. he went out on loan to granada/boredaux and played well. the lad shows desire to play in the first team and give his best. all the defenders LFC have tried last season didnot work. every of your so called experienced first team ready defender like skrtel lovren sakho and toure failed at defence so much so that emre can had to be deployed their. ever wondered why we have never played sakho skrtel and lovren as back three, despite them being out and out defenders? Yet tiago illori has not played a game for liverpool. he is being loaned out to sunderland and he doesn't want that. the lad wants to play for liverpool , the entire youth team is here because they have ambition of playing for the first team. if we are not going to put our faith in our own youth , then who will.
Most importantly where were these coaches and manager when they bought a 18year old for top bucks if in two years he was never going to be good enough for first team. there is nothing wrong with our youth , they all are exciting prsopects. Dare i say the best in England.
yes Mr shiny bright irish teeth deserves every bit of stick he gets from fans here.

{Ed001's Note - to be fair, Sakho did not fail, he just got injured.}

23 Jun 2015 12:32:57
And you're immediate dismissal of anything that disagrees with your point of view is why I don't listen to you. You may think I'm wrong, and that's fine, but I hold your position in no higher regard.

{Ed001's Note - is that what you think it is? So you make a blatantly false claim about someone's effectiveness but think you know better than even the manager who admitted it was such a failure he changed the system to take Can out of the firing line? If you want to be such a tool and think I am dismissing it merely because it disagrees with my point of view, rather than because you made a deluded post, and refuse to understand why it has been dismissed out of hand, then it just shows why you are not the one being asked for their opinion and just trying to shove it down people's throats and whining like a little girl when the stupidity of your argument is pointed out.}

23 Jun 2015 13:02:08
Ed 001, Can was brought into defence against Swansea on Dec 29th. Over the next 11 PL games Liverpool took 29 points and conceded 6 goals, any reasonable person would call that a success. The next game was a 2-1 defeat to Utd where both goals came from mistakes on the left of defence where Can had little influence. After that result the team imploded which can hardly be blamed on teams 'targeting Can'.

The team worked when Can was RCB and just because it opposes your view of what's wrong at the moment doesn't mean you're right.

{Ed001's Note - sorry but you are still missing the point, try watching the game instead of spouting stats. He was struggling before the United game, leading to him being swopped into the centre in at least one game prior to it to protect him. Against United, Rodgers decided to persist with him there and the back 3, even though both were clearly found out. Van Gaal targeted him, putting Fellaini on him, which meant Skrtel was dragged out of the middle all game to cover, which left a gap on the left. So to say Can had no influence just shows how little understanding you have of how one weak link can affect a whole team as it is forced to cover him. By the way, you will also find the success was more of a result of Lucas than anything Can did, certainly defensively. If you are too blind to see the full pitch, that is not my fault. I can only tell you that the fact is that even your beloved manager realised it was failing, hence the change. So how you can be so deluded as to deny it, well it beggars belief that anyone can be so blinkered in their desperation to defend the indefensible or maybe you just like to be contrary? I have no idea, but you are just making yourself look foolish arguing over this. The analysts, the coaching staff and the manager all saw it wasn't working with Can as a right centre back, but you obviously know better.}

23 Jun 2015 13:14:17
John B,

It's not as simple as that, when you're playing well you don't want to change things because that may upset the cart. When you're playing badly you haven't got time to give under performing players a long run.

Lambert played 36 times and scored 3 goals, Borini scored 1 in 18 appearances. Even coming off the bench that's an awful return.

23 Jun 2015 13:17:37
Akshit,

My point isn't that he's not good enough, the point is that we are building him up to be the second coming of Geoff Hurst when there's no evidence to whether or not he can cut it at Liverpool. People who know the game better than you or I have made these decisions, we're just arm-chair managers looking to find another excuses to bash BR.

23 Jun 2015 13:34:23
I must say, hats off to Ed001, he certainly knows how to debate! At the end of the day, Rodgers had plenty of defenders to play instead of Can. The more worrying thing for me is we just signed that 18 year old CB. I just hope he isn't lost and forgotten about and he ends up damaging a very bright looking future by signing for us.

23 Jun 2015 13:40:20
Muscatred, your post however long it was, proved nothing in the end. The eds and many on here have already debated the points you were trying to make. many knew can would be found out and he did. playing players out of position can only get you past three games and after that, you will be found out if you don`t change and BR did NOT change. Ilori is a very good player who has performed admirably when given a chance in other teams so what makes you so sure he won`t do so here? because BR doesn`t play him hence, not good enuff? If that`s what you think then clearly, you`ve never played the game at a decent level because I have and if the manager doesn`t trust you or has his favourites or is just clueless, all of which BR is, it doesn`t matter how good you are, you will NEVER see the field until injuries or a coaching change happens. Ask Kelly, Suso, Ilori and the rest what their opinion would be if you sent them your comments. BR bought Ilori and Can YET he has no idea where or how to play them. Are you blaming the players for that or is it not the manager`s job to play them? We have good players, players he bought as NONE was forced on him so if he can`t get it done then he either needs the sack or be kept and keep getting stick for his failures until he starts doing more and talking less. All your post did was present a pathetic excuse to defend the indefensible.

23 Jun 2015 14:15:08
Mate, it's not about proving anything. There are no right and wrong answers in football. It's about countering the wave of negativity on this site.

I think BR can have success next season, I don't know if he will though, no one does. Until the season starts we can just state our opinions. Either I'll be right or I'll be wrong, but for now I'm optimistic I'll be right.

{Ed001's Note - on this I hope you are right.}

23 Jun 2015 14:18:50
Ilori played 12 times all season for Bordeux, not exactly setting the world alight is it? Maybe his time has now arrived. I am sure management will hae a long hard look at him during pre season.

23 Jun 2015 14:28:13
Tell you what. despite flogging a dead horse, if the team shows half as much determination as Muscatred, then we've got a chance this year !

23 Jun 2015 15:25:16
I read as far as "Can was moved into defence hugely successfully".

Torn apart at right centre back as well was the poor fella. He got away with it for a few weeks and then teams realised how unsuited he was and started to attack him. He always looked good bringing the ball out of defence but that's definitely not the most important thing you look for in a centre back.

23 Jun 2015 16:47:44
I feel for you muscat red.

The likes of Lambert, Lovren, Balotelli and to a lesser extent Borini were given the shirt early doors last season and we were hopeless. I would absolve Lambert & Borini of too much blame - they at least tried. The other two were guilty of being either hopelessly out of their depth or bone idle.

Only when he put Can into a back 3 (on the basis that he'd BR had tried tinkering with different players in the same formation and it wasn't happening) did results pick up. We went 6 away games without conceding with Can at the back. Of course people started to target him but it doesn't take away the fact that his calmness at the back helped us during our only decent run last season. People target Skrtel, Sakho & Lovren and they're even more accident prone under pressure than Can.

The United game I'll give Ed01. For Rodgers not to have clocked what was going on 15 minutes in and make a change meant we were done like kippers.

{Ed001's Note - so you don't think it was about Lucas being used in a DM role providing protection to the defence then? Considering it has been shown repeatedly over the years that our results are far better with him in the team than without him.}

23 Jun 2015 19:15:59
I'm sure that's part of it too, it is a team game after all. But anyone could see Can steadied us, we all talked about it at the time.







 

 

 
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