04 Aug 2015 19:18:42
The Real AG ,
I saw down the page that you disagree with me that we need to bring in a disciplined central midfielder if we want to challenge next season. When I say central midfielders, I mean the ones that sit in front of the defence and control the game with their passing, whilst also providing protection for the defence.
Attacking midfielders are not central midfielders. Their primary objectives are to provide assists for the strikers and to chip in with goals. You can't shoe horn an attack minded player into a disciplined role and expect him to perform just because, in your own words, he's a "multimillion pound footballer".
You need specialist players in these positions. Even Chiravella did a better job in that role in the 13 or so minutes he got pre season, than Allen in all the games he played. Emre Can is a box to box player, he could be moulded into a disciplined cdm role over time, but that would be a waste as he is clearly talented and a threat in the final third. Milner spent the majority of his career as a wide player, but we know he can also play anywhere behind the striker, however, he's certainly not a player who you'd waste as a disciplined central midfielder and Henderson is a box to box player who is more effective when given freedom than when he's shackled to a disciplined role.
It's quite ironic how many people moan about Rodgers playing players out of position yet would be happy with him playing attacking midfielders in defensive roles.
Coutinho, Firmino, Ibe, Markovic, Lallana and Milner are attacking midfielders. Hendo, Can and Allen are box to box midfielders, who need to played WITH a disciplined central midfielder, and Lucas is our ONLY disciplined central midfielder.
As I said, if Lucas picks up an injury, we are going to struggle both defensively and when in possession. Just try to think back to last season when Lucas was injured, we had no defensive protection and the goals we conceded were laughable. When in possession our centre backs had no options to pass to in midfield and no one dropped off showing for the ball. This is something that's needed attention for years but fans don't seem to be bothered at all. Just blame the defence, seems to be a reoccurring theme, instead of fans actually acknowledging our true weakness, which is central midfield.
Bringing in a player for this position will be the difference between a 1-4th place finish and a 4-8th place finish.
Red Rum
04 Aug 2015 19:39:50
Not sure we need another midfielder.
Lucas will hold with Can as backup.
Then you have a load of players who will fill the other midfield positions. Hendo and Milner mostly.
04 Aug 2015 20:02:04
I do agree that Can could do the position well and has all the attributes to do so. He has played left back and in a back 3 for Liverpool last year. Is he going to get many opportunities playing further up the pitch this season? I don't think so.
04 Aug 2015 20:09:39
I am by no means advocating what BR is trying to do (I think), just trying to decipher it. I think his core belief is to play essentially a 4 3 3, where the midfield as Individuals are expected to create when in possession, and defend when not. So if Hendo wins the ball for example, he will have licence to push forward, whilst (presumably) his CM partner Milner will pivot back as defensive cover. Or vice versa. Great in theory, but very difficult in practice. A Mourinho esq 4 2 3 1 is far simpler as long as players obey instruction. One of the 2 deeper lying midfielders will be under strict licence to purely be a DM, breaking up the opposition play and protecting the defence. No fancy stuff, no urge to be a hero, no delusions about 'assists' or goals. Makele Being a typical example.
BR is not wrong to set up without an out and out DM, but I don't think he grasps the complexities of the system he is trying to implement. Barcelona (who I'm sure Brendan might have watched once or twice whilst while writing his dossier. ), play the 4 3 3 BR craves. The difference between Barca and Brendan is. BUSQUETS. Barcas system doesn't define such a rigid DM as a Mourinho team, but Busquets is most definitely a traditional DM by nature. His instinct regardless of the system, is to protect the back four and break up play. BR and Barcas system of not having an out and out DM actually works when you shoehorn a true DM into one of the midfield roles. Hence Lucas success when he plays. Believing that your system doesn't feature an out and out DM so you don't actually need one may well prove to be BRs downfall. We shall see.
04 Aug 2015 21:10:19
Personally I'd wait until next season rummy lad. Can can cover for Lucas and too many changes isn't good. We should do no more business
04 Aug 2015 21:16:58
Defensive midfielders : Matic, Lucas , Busquets, mascherano, naingolan ( Roma, spell error )
Ball winning midfielders / working midfielders : Ramirez, Henderson, Milner, Bentalab, Herrera
Ball playing midfielders : Modric , Xavi , Fabrigas, Pjanic, Cabaye, Allen, Kovacic
Deep lying playmakers : Alonso , Pirlo
04 Aug 2015 21:33:56
@RedRum, you clearly referred to the term "central midfielder" in the post below and now what you are describing is a "defensive midfielder".
It's a mixup in the use of terms. We have plenty centre mids. We only have one proper experienced defensive mid. I'm happy to have Chivarella provide some backup and I think Can Henderson and Milner as a midfield 3 in Lucas' absence is more than good enough, including defensively.
04 Aug 2015 21:46:02
I did an account of what I think he is up to last week and it's posted on the teams page. Not to dissimilar to what BBB posted.
04 Aug 2015 22:24:19
Just read your post Simon. Great minds. 😊
The irony in all this is that one of the biggest sticks that everyone uses to beat BR is 'playing people out of position'. All the bitching about Ibe/Sterling/Markovich at RB/RWB is actually a smart use of players. Instead of trying to find a really really attacking FB who can play as WB, just find a winger who can defend. A bit. (I suggest all those clamouring for Klopp look at how he lines his players up) Where it all goes t*ts up for BR is that he can't see that Lucas playing a 'non DM' role should still be the first name on the team sheet.
04 Aug 2015 22:43:01
By central midfielder, I mean what I said above, someone who can dictate the play AND defend. So they can either play alongside Lucas or as cover for him. I believe Lucas, Henderson and Coutinho is potentially a title winning midfield 3, but if Lucas picks up an injury or is rested, I wouldn't trust anyone in the squad to adequately fill in for him. Chiravella has potential, and I'd probably pick him over Allen for that role, but is he ready and capable of a long run if Lucas picks up a long term injury? I honestly don't know.
Illarramendi should be considered in my opinion. He wouldn't cost too much and is available.
Red Rum
04 Aug 2015 23:31:26
''The irony in all this is that one of the biggest sticks that everyone uses to beat BR is 'playing people out of position'. All the bitching about Ibe/Sterling/Markovich at RB/RWB is actually a smart use of players''
Sorry but it is not a smart use of players in the slightest. It's an overcompensation for the lack of defensive capabilities he has in place thus needing 3 centrebacks to deal with attacking pressure,1 of which is primarily a DM by trade.
Wing backs are meant to get back. Sterling did very little of this,infact it was almost non existent to the point of embarrassment
Ibe did ok,but it negated his attacking threat,constantly the teams pressurised him upfield with Can next to him,some 1 simply stuck close to him giving him a distinct lack of space. We had glimpses of what he could do as a winger,but far too intermittent because he started so deep and was attempting to ball carry and run 50/60 yards everytime,instead of starting in the opponents half,pegging back their left back.
Finally we have markovic, who regardless of how you want to analyse and put it,is not in any way shape or form a defensively minded player.
05 Aug 2015 00:00:24
BigBad, your earlier post makes a lot of sense. BR claims to love the way Barca play and possess the ball YET the style he plays regarding possession has no comparison to how Barca do it. Same with the DM use. Busquets is a DM, plain and simple. He might not be the Matic type (who I think is technically better than people credit him for) but a DM, nonetheless. That's why Masche plays CB there because his type of DM does not suit the Barca style but they still use one. BR wants to play a DLP but Barca don't use one and they are rare. Hence, he shoehorns SG and Allen there who are or were aweful at it. Instead of going back to Lucas who has shown his quality, he persists with it and like you said, it will b the end of him
05 Aug 2015 07:02:58
redohio
Barca plays with a creative CM alongside Busquets So does Roma, Chelsea, Arsenal and many more.
05 Aug 2015 07:30:10
Lucas joined the club as a box to box player. I don't agree that a Dm is required. Central Midfielders who are disciplined and can defend are just as capable. Jordan Henderson, Milner and Can are all CM, box to box as you call them, but the term actually means they can defend and attack. On many occasions, against opposition that put every man behind the ball, a DM is not required. Milner, Henderson and Can, all have the ability to help the defence and support the attack. I am sure now Gary Mac is coach that our Midfield will be fine.
05 Aug 2015 08:43:42
T Mony
There is a misbelief among people, midfiedlers who press high up, work hard, close down their markers could also play the Defensive midfield role which is not correct.
A defensive midfiedler is a completely different player and attributes. he doesn't run around nor need to press high ( but yes could disposes ) They are great readers of the game as they dictate the pace of the game.
If you being a manager, The DM / DLP is your vision. Your two eyes to read the game. Stand behind a DM and you could see the whole footbll pitch and 11 players infront of you.
There are some other midfielders who could do both. Carrick and Morgan are Examples. Some needs to be played alongside a DM, Scholes-Keane, Alonso-Masch.
Its the manager who decides what he wants from a player.
Ask henderson to hold the line along with Lucas, He becomes a CM. Ask him to push high up pitch, He becomes a B2B player.
But not every midfielder could dictate a game from the middle. That requires skill and vision.
A very underrated such midfeidler is Cabaye.
05 Aug 2015 09:48:10
EG you have completely missed the point T mony was making. That if you have 3 competent players who can tackle and get back,you don't need a strict DM who offers little going forward.
There is nothing to say you need a strict DM to be able to play football and win.
Barcelona,and Man city have proven you can win titles without and sort of capable defensive midfielder,as theirs are woeful.
You need to stop just assigning roles to midfielders,and saying they can be only 1 type. Every game is different and requires a different set up and role to be played. The way you analyse players roles seems very football manager esque.
05 Aug 2015 10:44:44
Bob
You would be the only football fan to claim Busquets is a poor player. I stop watching the game mate.
City had always played with a DM ( undertated, poor, average) no matter what you call them.
Liverpool 2 seasons ago proved, you cannot win the title without a DM. We had two of the best strikers on the planet One exciting winger, A top class CAM, An energetic Midfeidler in Henderson and Pass master Gerrard.
05 Aug 2015 10:51:29
Red-Rum: YOUR definition of a central midfielder is different to the rest of the footballing worlds'. You can give them names like box-to-box or deep-lying playmakers, but they are still central midfielders because they play in the central of midfield and their primary job is not all to attack, but to defend too. Just think for a second here: box-to-box implies someone like Henderson goes from OUR box to the opposition box. Are you telling me his job when he is in our box to score own goals? Or to NOT defend?
Milner, Henderson, Allen, Can and Lucas are all central midfield players, with varied primary objective and skills.
05 Aug 2015 10:58:53
It's amazing how many people disagree with such an obvious point. I think many will see what I mean as the season goes on, especially when Lucas picks up an injury. I think Bobatron has a point that we don't necessarily need a strict DM, but we do need someone who will come deep for the ball and dictate the play, but can also do the defensive stuff. Regardless, Harry is on the right track accepting that we are weak in that particular area, which shows more knowledge and understanding than most fans who just disagree because they want more attacking players.
Red Rum
05 Aug 2015 11:12:56
E G. My point is Jimmy Case G Souness and T McDermott, were all classed as CM. all could attack, all could tackle, all could pass. Souness was more central in terms of protecting the back 2,but he was positioned more on the half way line. They all defended when needed. Whelan, Mcmahon and Molby they protected but non were nailed down as your DM position, One went in support of each other. attack and defend, that was my point
05 Aug 2015 11:14:20
for a Def-Mid is only needed when you play a certain formation and if the team you are playing are not all out defending , we have come unstuck in plenty of games when we have played team at anfield and they have parked the bus and we have been beat by this system , in these games we don't need a DM , i'm not a lucas fan , he gives away too many fouls around our area in very dangerous positions and he loses the ball too often which leads to goals , you only have to watch the last 2 games of the season to see this , it was down to his individual mistakes that led to 2 goals against us in 2 games , but we do need a DM because all the top teams have very good ones who make the difference in where the team finishes
05 Aug 2015 11:29:33
AG, I've specifically stated my definition of a central midfielder. It's those that specifically operate in the middle of the park. Either, as a holding midfielder, a defensive midfielder or a deep lying playmaker. Maybe I should be more specific in future.
Technically you're right, Henderson, Can and Allen, all play centrally, but they struggle when told to be disciplined. Yes, Hendo gets back to help out when defending, but he struggles when asked to be disciplined, and protect the defence.
Red Rum
05 Aug 2015 11:30:44
Henderson missed the run in when we failed by 2 points, that's without your coveted DM. Proved we can reach top 4 without one.
05 Aug 2015 11:36:19
Red-Rum: It's disappointing to see you accuse other fans without any base just because they do not agree with your point, and see things differently. At no point have anyone above said they wanted more attacking midfielders. You just made that up to suit your argument.
As for Harry: He just contradicted himself in this very same thread in two posts. First he defines Henderson as "ball winning midfielder" and then in a later post in this thread, he claims Henderson plays two roles, depending on who he plays alongside and what his manager wants him to do.
His second point is somewhat understandable. Nobody is born with a DM, CM or AM tag. Depending on the opposition, the situation and how the manager wants to play, he should have the flexibility to play these players to suit him. If you think the likes of Henderson are not flexible enough to play a certain way depending on how the manager wants him to, then you are the one who is missing the point.
05 Aug 2015 11:52:35
T Mony
Neither Xavi, Gerrard, Scholes were good at defending yet they control the game with their other attributes. They are always well covered and protected by certain Keane, Busquets, and Mascherano
When you press high up the pitch or carry the ball forward you need someone to stop the opposition running towards you which might come from any part of the ground.
A DM is the first one to anticipate and rush to the danger calling them positionally astute players.
These players are excellent readers of the game just like the best snakes ( on a good note ). They smell the danger first.
Some of these breeds over the years have improved their offensive attributes. Matic is the example.
Without Lucas our team wouldn't survive. It is a fact regardless of how many midfielders you have with you Liverpool FC has had only one DM in Lucas since 6 years.
Chelsea never went into a season under various managers without a top class DM ever from Makelele to Matic.
05 Aug 2015 11:59:43
I must add that my previous post was in reply to the post before your last one Red-Rum. I do not mean to come across as rude, but I thought it was unfair to criticize others.
I feel talks about buying central midfielders at LFC are counterproductive as any more central midfielders if bought, will only be likely next summer. A LOT could have happened by then.
I still disagree with your definition of these players though. I do no mean to sound presumptuous, but I would bet that Lucas, Allen, Henderson, Can and Milner are the players who will play the most in central midfield. We will definitely see Henderson play more centrally, taking the responsibility of defending and attacking rather than just attacking. Coutinho on the other hand, a player you also likened to as a n attacking midfielder alongside Henderson, will likely play more advanced, on the wings or behind the striker and occasionally with Henderson.
05 Aug 2015 12:11:08
EG there are a great many that don't rate biscuits,he gets called that because he's crumbled under the pressure of xavi and iniesta not dominating the play. especially last 2 seasons when xavi played a lot less and barcas posession stats have declined.
What city proved is that you can wina title with a good spine. Aguero,Kmpany,Silva,Toure,Hart. Their 2 DM's are piss poor and they made a huge mistake letting Barry go for either of them.
Real Madrid won a title without a true destroyer/break up player in the defensive mid role.
Juve have dominated the italian league (I don't rate it much myself) without a true DM,when they've played with Marchisio,Vidal,Pogba.(and at times the vastly overrated Pirlo) I see the first 3 as simply central box to box mids who can attack and defend,with a great work rate,nut none were ever truly forced to just sit. Pirlo,certainly can't defend when he's played.
05 Aug 2015 12:20:22
I base my argument solely on what I see. We were abysmal last season until Lucas came in. I don't think you would deny that. The season before, Stevie played the deep lying playmaker role and apart from his defensive weakness he played it well, that season, we had Suarez and Sturridge to make up for our defensive weaknesses. Last season we were found out, until Lucas came in. Do you think it will be any different next season if Lucas picks up an injury?
Yes, nobody is born with a label, but there's a difference between someone playing a particular role who knows how to play a that role and shoving someone in who will struggle.
Its a simple and clear observation AG. I guess we will have to agree to disagree, but time will tell, and we will see what happens.
Red Rum
05 Aug 2015 13:56:57
Bob
Real lost the title when they sold Alonso and Carlo paired Kroos with every other players he had with him.
Those names are world beaters at Real, But the fact they don't have a holding playe.
Xavi wouldn't move an inch wihout a DM ( but he ndds one ). Scholes was the same at UTD.
AG
I did not contradict. You could always ask Henderson to do a diffent job which is not his primary strength. He was deployed as CM in an away match ( CL/EL). we were so boring in the first half and lost the second half.
Henderson's best attribute is his energy and if you contain him to play the CM role, you are taking away his biggest strength.
Ballack is a magnificent player But not a typical CM.
I agree with red rum here, Lucas holds the biggest key and let's forget how many we score next season, Who would dare to stop Aguero and Hazzard coming to us?
05 Aug 2015 14:29:23
What point are you making with xavi exactly or the Real madrid and Alonso one? neither really seems to take on what I said to you?