03 Mar 2016 13:40:04
A lot of people are still questioning Klopp mainly because our record didn't improve instantly under him. However he's now had a reasonable amount of time at the club, has better players available, and has had more than 2 days of unbroken training without a game!
And here we are in our last 3 games with 9 goals scored in our last 2 premier league games (and zero conceded), 2 clean sheets in Europe and progression to the next round, and took a top team to penalties in a final. In fact in our last 5 games we've won 3 and drawn 2 (excluding the penalties) scoring 11 and only conceding 1 in that time frame! Two of those games were against Manchester City!
We got criticised for conceding too many goals and Klopp has rectified that without cutting our goals being scored.
No progress? Get out of here you pessimistic bunch ;)
03 Mar 2016 15:20:03
You should be a politician lad you are the king of spin when it comes to suiting your own argument.
"2 clean sheets in Europe" - to a team struggling in the Bundesliga and where we needed a penalty to score and progress.
"9 goals in 2 premier league games" - a true stat but let's add some context: one of those teams was a truly woeful, definitely relegation bound Aston Villa whose defence was truly, truly awful. The other was a quality City side and that result was great. The point being is using stats, as the backbone of your opinion, is daft.
"took a top team to penalties in a final" - a team we rinsed 3-0 days later. A final we were lucky to take to penalties given the amount of chances they had and the poorness of our play and a final we could and should of done better in.
The three games before the ones you are lauding us for were a 2-1 loss at West Ham in the FA Cup, a 2-2 draw at home to a bad, struggling Sunderland side who were 2-0 down with 15 minutes to play and a 2-0 hiding by a team who wanted it more in Leicester.
Stop using stats lad, it is a ridiculous way of justifying your point. The crux of what you say - that Klopp has and will improve us - I agree with, but the way you express it and the spin you try to put on it is just grim. Please mate no more stats.
{Ed001's Note - hang on, how were we lucky to take them to pens? They were lucky you mean, as what else can you say when the goalie lets a simple save slip through like that?}
03 Mar 2016 15:42:48
The goalie was rank and that goal was fortuitous but on the balance of play I think City were much better than we were for much of the game and had numerous chances to bury it. We had very few chances, did little to really stretch or test City (unlike yesterdays game) and ultimately did not deserve to win that final. This is only my opinion but I think there was more to the game than just the 2 goals and, on the balance of the game, I think City were much better. If the shoe was on the other foot we would have been cursing our luck and wondering why were unable to score - instead we were happy to still be in it come penalties - honestly I don't think there was much for us to be lauded for in that final.
03 Mar 2016 15:58:07
EMS, in defence of people like me (and Seano apparently) it was never about doubting Klopp it was about casting a critical eye over what was actually happening and not participating in hyperbole. As you point out we've had a decent run of form and I hope that Klopp's turned a corner but as Seano points out this run was preceded by some awful games. With any luck we're witnessing the start of something great but I think I'm going to wait to see if we can sustain this form for a little while before I let myself believe we're on the up.
Ed1, in relation to your response to Seano, although the scoreline is far more important than performances or chances created, suggesting City should feel lucky they made it to penalties is a massive stretch if for no other reason that they were denied one of the most blatant penalties you're ever likely to witness. City outplayed us and it would have been a massive smash and grab if we'd won.
03 Mar 2016 16:48:53
4 clean sheets in 5 games? It's ridiculous to suggest that is anything but good when we've played away in Europe and against title contenders twice. Augsburg are struggling in the league but they've been good in Europe this season. Also they have a great away record and before we faced them they lost 3-1 to Bayern Munich. So they're hardly whipping boys. If our defence did what Bayerns couldn't and kept them out not just in 90 minutes, but in 180 minutes then what's your problem?
City were the lucky ones. They needed a fluke goal thanks to poor keeping to get to extra time, they spent the 30 minutes of ET clinging on for dear life, and then Cabellero stood a yard off his line for half the penalties which is cheating.
Whatever way you look at this we've conceded one goal in 5 thanks to poor keeping from Migs, got through in Europe, taken 6 points from 6, and scored 11 goals in the process; narrowly missing out on silver ware due to a dodgy shootout. How am I spinning anything? I'm just stating facts and saying that I think we're improving. Surely improving is scoring more and conceding less? that's just football basics. Spinning stats would be pointing to thinks like shots on target, possession, corners won etc to claim we're improving. Scoring and keeping clean sheets is how you win football matches. But don't worry, I get it. "Oh look an EMS post! let's hound him for using stats in a completely relevant context, backed up with logic and opinion because it's the done thing! " *sarcastic thumbs up*.
03 Mar 2016 17:37:38
We beat Villa 6-0, their biggest defeat of the season. A team at the bottom of the league, true but where unbeaten at home since December until Liverpool stuffed them. don't under estimate what Liverpool done. Credit where it is due.
03 Mar 2016 17:39:53
Nobody's arguing with your facts or that things have been good over the course of the last few games but you're using it as evidence that people shouldn't have doubted Klopp. If we lose our next three games are you going to decide that Klopp's worthless? Of course not.
Klopp is currently neither a good or bad Liverpool manager, he's just our current one. When he demonstrates he's raised the performance of the team over a sustained period that may change but there isn't a sufficient body of evidence to say that with confidence yet.
P. S. They only lost 3-1 to bayern which shows they're not whipping boys. Seriously?
P. P. S. Dude, you're in massive denial if you think we were somehow robbed in the League Cup.
03 Mar 2016 18:00:18
You shouldn't have doubted Klopp partly because it's ridiculous to make any assessment this early in his tenure, but secondly because he asked us to change from doubters to believers 😎.
03 Mar 2016 18:11:47
I don't think it's fair to attack EMS's stats In this case. They are relevant in this instance and he makes a good point about our recent form.
In contrast, I don't think EMS's original post was particularly fair on the others posters either.
Klopp did not bring with him much of a change of fortune when he arrived. As Ed02 pointed out, his win % was equal to Hodgesons,
Now, I hadn't actually seen anybody giving Klopp any stick per say, but people were/ are just as entitled to question his methods much the same as we all did under Rodgers.
I think the biggest a problem if I'm being honest was a lot of th supporters (myself included) put Klopp to high on the mantle to early, we expected bigger things out of him than perhaps we should have, and I believe this has shocked some.
With regards to the form, I certainly hope you are correct EMS and we are starting to turn a corner, I must admit we do look pretty hard to beat at the moment, even in games we aren't playing well. However I'm sceptical it's another false dawn, so I won't be expecting us to play any better for the rest of the season than we did in the beginning and the middle, if anymore comes from it then it's a bonus.
03 Mar 2016 18:25:29
just take it 1 game at a time, next up crystal palace, let's have revenge for that anfield defeat.
03 Mar 2016 18:38:39
We have been hard to watch at times. I'm not with this clean sheets etc stuff. I look at our goalkeeper and backline and I see major weaknesses. Klopps had injuries but it's been a hard season as expected. The only thing klopp has been truly criticised and warranted for is mignolet.
03 Mar 2016 19:01:07
I watched the match back today on MOTD. I tell you what I loved about Kloppo:
1) His burst of laughter when he said "I heard Bayern lost"- classic 2 fingered salute to Bayern 😆
2) When Milner had a shot saved at the end of a brilliant move Kloppo got up clapping with a determined look on his face followed by slapping his own leg with a passionate grimace.
As if to say 'that's what I want, that's what we're working so hard to achieve'.
You can tell this is no "stepping stone" job for him. Yes he might move on in the future, but he is putting 100% into this job and it means everything to him. I feel he is 100% committed and it's great to see.
03 Mar 2016 19:22:18
Those undermining Klopp are either BR`s apologists at the time because their darling got the boot deservedly or the ones reading the partisan hacks in the media trying to undermine him by posting pathetic statistics like win % or whatever and interviewing BR anytime they got and then twist his words as a dig on Klopp. I never doubted him and won`t until he proves me wrong, just like BR proved many of us wrong. As for Muscatred, Ed01 is right. Go watch the game again. City were so scared of getting thumped again that they played THREE DM`s and sat back, playing on the counter. They did nothing per the long punt to Aguero that cased the shot that hit the post. We were in NO danger until Mingo flew in to help them out. At that point, we chased the game and they got chances on the counter. That doesn`t mean they played better. They had and advantage and chose to defend and it backfired because we kept plugging away, never gave up and equalized. And judging by the way they got thumped last night, it shows again that Pello would be happy about one thing whn he departs this summer. He would never have to deal with LFC in the PL anymore.
03 Mar 2016 19:54:36
EMS come on mate don't play that "everyone is picking on me card" We all know you had a very public disagreement with the eds but let people express their opinion on your views without being made to feel guilty. Seano had a very valid counter argument yes we've made some improvements but using stats as you did to make your point should be questioned given the opposition. In terms of the cup final we were lucky to get to extra time and they were lucky to get to pens it's as simple as that for me.
03 Mar 2016 23:43:12
Tbh i kinda agree with Seano, i don't like it when people twist stats like politicians to suit arguments, although i do agree with your overall point.
If someone really wanted to twist stats in their favour they could say that, i think it was a few games ago ed002 said this, klopp had less points after the samr number of games as hodgson.
But using our eyes we know that is just out of context.
Within context, some players have improved and it definately isn't the hopelessness under rodgers. We've put in some class performances once every blue moon and the rest are just let down by the few. That said, the serial offenders all were brilliant last night, so maybe they can keep it up and make us eat our words, but i am not holding out much hope.
Its quite clear things are being held back by certain factors and that next season things will hopefully be very different. Its crap right now but things are on the up in the long term. I don't need any clean sheet numbers to tell me that.
04 Mar 2016 04:04:36
credit where its due for the defence when they keep clean sheets its only fair, we slag them off quick enough when they concede, the stats say only 1 goal conceded in 5, that is an improvement, also 9 scored in 2 games, i'm happy with that.
04 Mar 2016 07:51:46
Blimy, you can tell we're on a Liverpool forum. Someone points out a run that by anyones standard is good form (5 games, 11 goals, 1 conceeded) and how that involved some pretty tough games on paper, and all people can do is have a go because some number are involved. Like EMS says we aren't talking shots on target % here we're talking the basic numbers of football - balls in our net, balls in opposition net, points on the table/ progress in the cup! If you call those invalid stats and political spin then frankly I don't know how you judge success in football. Random guesswork I assume, which would explain the fear of someone pointing out a few actual measurable results.