02 Jan 2017 22:47:15
Happy New Year to all Ed`s and Reds alike and best wishes!
The Sunderland game was a roller-coaster and indeed, was not the result we all wanted and there are positives to take away from the game and I would like to focus on one thing for a second.
First off, I`m never one to comment on referees and their decisions cos their jobs are hard and having played the game at a decent level, I excuse a lot of dumb stuff that they get wrong. However, not today
Can I just say how Anthony Taylor and his assistants were a right shambles in that game? Having played a very intense and energy-sapping game vs City and with only 44 hours to prepare (or lack thereof), I think our boys played outstanding football vs a team (tho, in the same situation BUT had the home crowd to push them all game) that set up to frustrate us. We created a hat load of chances, 15 shots on target, dominated possession, gave up only 3 shots on target (all which Migs comfortably saved) and should definitely have won. Not saying Taylor was the reason we drew BUT he definitely contribute his own two pence.
On the first goal, Wiji and Klavan hesitate and Ndong gets the ball. He then, dives into the gap btw both players, drawing the contact from Klavan by diving into his leg (as if contact is no longer allowed in the box anymore) and Taylor gets mugged and blows for a penalty.
Then on the near goal by Defoe and then Borini. Ndong is offside by two yards on the through ball and yet goes for the ball. The flag should be raised right there as he`s interfering with play but it does not. Defoe tells him to stop running and takes over and were it not of for the quick thinking of Migs, we`re 2-1 down right there due to two ref howlers.
On can`s penalty, Taylor can`t give it cos a) he wasn`t sure or b) he is trying to do a make up call cos he prolly knew he messed up on the first penalty warded.
Then the worst, the second equalizer. He gives a FK for the "foul" on Defoe where as there was NO foul. Defoe turns away from Lucas` challenge, then turns into Can who then steps in front and takes over possession. Defoe dives and then complains and the free kick is awarded and you know the rest. Taylor gets mugged again and so do we. Whereas a few minutes before that, Studge gets destroyed from behind and the ref and assistant don`t do a thing? See what I mean.
My point is that PL games are already extremely difficult to win especially under the circumstances we were under BUT when the ref starts meddling into things in favor of one team (just like the hapless Mike Dean did in the WH-Utd game) the job becomes three times more difficult and I can`t blame Klopp for being severely irritated in the post match presser cos he prolly didn`t want to slate the ref in public as that`s not his style. Now were that to be Mou or Pep or even Moyes, he (especially Mou) would have called out the ref by name and given him a right verbal thrashing. Let me know what your thoughts are, guys.
03 Jan 2017 00:50:02
I see what you're getting at Hamilton but too often on here the focus seems to be on what happened leading up to a pivitol incident rather than the incident itself. A number of times Migs and Karius have let in easy goals and then been absolved of blame because their defenders allowed a shot at the keeper. Sometimes the blame can be shared around but with Sunderlands second goal it was quite simply Manes fault. The free kick was debatable (although i think the ref was correct) but Migs looked like he had it covered anyway. What was Mane doing? It was half a meter from his body so he wasnt protecting himself.
I agree the ref had a pretty average game but i disagree that he was tesponsible for the end result.
03 Jan 2017 00:55:36
I'm sorry but don't really agree with this view - the first was a clear penalty and so was the second. Even the free kick given was at least a 50/ 50 foul by Lucas. Can handball was 50/ 50 and we were lucky it went our way.
The real problem was we were sloppy in possession and not as sharp as we should have been playing the ball from the back, and we missed the zip through midfield we normally have. We also missed the mobility Hendo normally provides ahead of the defense with most of the poorer tackles coming in because we were a yard off the pace and defenders isolated 1-1. Late tackles and fouls like those are symptomatic of the opposition being a yard ahead and having too much time and space on the ball themselves.
I also noted the forwards also struggled to link up (as they did vs. City, with players often looking a bit isolated and then giving away possession with a loose pass or poor first touch (particularly Firmino) .
It's easy to say in hindsight but we missed Hendo badly and the setup wasn't quite right given the tired legs. We needed at least Stewart at base of midfield and we should have played Origi upfront and given Firmino or even Mane a rest IMO.
03 Jan 2017 01:03:35
Also, can't see how the ref could give anything but a pen for Klavan sticking out a leg.
03 Jan 2017 01:59:25
I respect your opinions. Just to clarify. I never said that the ref`s decisions cost us the game as that is too easy a conclusion to make. Also, I never absorbed Mane of any blame for the penalty as that was a stupid thing to do.
What I was saying was that under the circumstances, we played quite well, created chances, showed more than decent movement (more than I thought we would) and could easily have scored three goals. Anyone who was thinking that there would be no drop off in energy levels, link up play and overall output after a tough energy-sapping game vs City with 44 hours of preparation (or lackthereof), must have been been deluding themselves. I totally expected it so of course, there would be some sloppiness, ragged defending, patches of disjointed play and passes going astray.
What I did not expect is that a ref would make as many howlers as I saw, all in one game. I can understand he didn`t see something or got no help from his assistant on one incident. What I can`t accept is an accumulation of howlers cos at that point, the players and manager start getting frustrated hence, the reaction we got from Klopp in his post game comments. The FK that led to the penalty incident, was a shambles and even ex players on TV, said so cos last I checked football is a contact sport so no FK, no pen if you follow logic. Also, Ndong literally launched himself into the gap btw Klavan and Wiji so of course, there will be contact and again, footie is a contact sport and Neil McCan on commentary said the same thing.
My point is that tho, we missed Hendo and Can was average in that position and there was an expected performance drop-off from Sat, we still did more than enough to win the game under the very difficult circumstances and cos we didn`t win, should not change that fact.
03 Jan 2017 02:28:56
I see your points but reality is I don't think we played well and our touch has been slipping even before today. If we weren't prepared to make any real changes to the side which hasn't exactly been playing as slickly as we're capable of, against a bottom team in a mess, and after just 48hrs against a sapping game vs. city then we either have an extremely poor bench or Klopp missed a trick.
Easy in hindsight but I think we should have played Stewart (or Lucas) to rest Can, and played Origi and Sturridge as a pair upfront in place of Firmino.
03 Jan 2017 02:29:57
Please stop justifying our short comings. Same thing happened in the chat page.
Fact is the players were not 100% sharp having played man city game and hendos absence was felt a lot.
Can was very nervous and it spilled over to others.
Though Klavan was at fault for the first penality, it was Wijnaldum who gave the opp player a free run forcing Klavan to make that clumsy work.
We were very lucky to not have gone 2-1 down when referee ignored a clear hand ball from Can.
Klopp also could have shown the same grace that he does during interviews where he is so honest instead was clapping sarcastically when Sturridge was sitting and Sunderland did not stop play. Would we do that if we were chasing the game?
Though Sturridge is a top top striker he his not helping himself with his attitude.
We were 2nd best with so many misplaced stuff and Klopp rightly took Wijnaldum out.
It is not getting the points against smaller teams that will end up costing us.
03 Jan 2017 06:07:49
lol Hamilton so all blame goes to the referees now. You are one of a kind mate.
03 Jan 2017 10:24:00
Whilst we lost the game because of our own stupid decisions in the box I do agree with this view as a whole. Yesterday I had the luxury of watching 3 games (Boro-Leicester, ours and United-WH) . All three games were littered with horrendous decision making by refs - mostly focusing on the decisions not made (and I think Hamilton gave some good examples from our games with the offside that wasn't given and the demolition job on Sturridge, but the United second goal was the biggest one) or the consistency of punishments (including reds for very little and yellows for criminal offenses) . I have been told that the issue was even greater in lower leagues and that in League 2, two games saw the ref 'subbed' at half time for injuries.
It was concerningly poor yesterday and to me it does bring about to me another question of the controversial Christmas schedule - it's all well and good to discuss whether the players are fit enough for them, but can the refs keep up?
03 Jan 2017 12:24:06
Mostly agree, some dodgy refereeing yesterday. But the real robbery is when Sturridge is kicked to pieces. Sad to see a professional ref miss that one.
03 Jan 2017 15:24:41
THank you Hijkle, and Andy for at least giving thought ful responses to this thread. Zimbo, I agree to disagree with you on the performance issue and that is fine. As for hindsight, if you don`t believe it matters so why mention it? It doesn`t matter what Klopp did per his selection cos provided we didn`t win, people (in hindsight) would criticize and try to rewrite history. Why? Cos it doesn`t matter and had we won, would Klopp had still missed a trick or would the bench had been stronger? Notice I never did any of that hindsight stuff for these basic reason.
Harry, it seems you have not read any of my initial comments I posted. I propose you read the first two paragraphs of each comment regarding how ref decisions as not being THE main factor we didn`t win and then get back to me. And you are right, I am one of a kind.