Liverpool banter 208516

 

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21 Feb 2017 18:57:21
I saw somebody say the other day that Suso is the only player we gave up on who is now having a good career. Got to partially disagree there though!

In terms of just youth players who are now successful top flight players, yes it it very few and far between. Essentially just Suso for AC Milan, and Gulacsi for RB Leipzig. 2 players we clearly canned way too soon.

On top of this though you have Carroll who we chucked after a season now looking like West Hams best player, Aspas playing some blinding football at Celta Vigo, Connor Coady looking a class above in the Championship, Spearing who has captained Bolton, Benteke top scoring for Palace and I'm sure there are others. Perhaps they were only squad level players, but we turfed them out still. Some possibly rightly, some possibly wrongly.

I will agree that very few players from our academy have hit the heights of Suso and Gulacsi but I think we as a club have a really bad track record of giving up on players too soon. We could've signed Moses a few seasons back but opted not to make the loan permanent. Now he is a first team player for Chelsea. I do think a large part of our academy players not transitioning well into the senior game is due to the lack of planning for their development though.

I still think we gave up on Ibe, Teixeira, Smith, Ilori and Canos too early. No doubt Brannagan, Ward, Sturridge, Ings and Flanagan will be the next few to be prematurely thrown onto the scrap heap! Then everyone will bleat about how they told us they weren't good enough, despite their lack of success being largely the fault of LFC! Typical.

Agree2 Disagree26

21 Feb 2017 19:24:40
I disagree, mainly, because I feel like if we kept most of the players you've mentioned, they would never have reached the level they're playing at. For example, I loved Suso but how many chances would he realistically have gotten if he stayed? At Milan, he's first choice so he has opportunities to develop and progress. Furthermore, some of the players you mentioned just aren't good enough. We did give Spearing many chances (think he mad close to 100 appearances for us? ) and although we all admired his passion, he didn't possess the requisite amount of quality, however harsh that sounds. Other players are even worse, you mentioned Carroll and he's got so many issues. I mean, to injure yourself getting off a barstool is pretty poor attitude and fitness, and even at West Ham, he only ever really plays 10 matches a season before he's crocked again.

I do agree that we aren't giving enough chances to youngsters, but at the same time, it was perhaps to both the players' and the club's benefit for both parties to move on so they can get playing time for their progression and development.

21 Feb 2017 20:08:23
Have to disagree too, for our club it doesn't matter how good a fit our former players are in another club, only if they would have improved the current crop under the current scheme. For most of them the answer is no. Fair play to them for finding their place, I usually follow and support most of our former players, and used to dream for Coady and Rossiter making it through, but the fact of the matter is none of them managed to break through, and most of them would not improve the current squad.
Suso took a lot of time as a weakish starter and a loan spell to mature, but this would make him a good alternative to Coutinho (if we presume that he would carry his form in the seria A to the premierleague) - however, would he be happy with that and would he achieve the same results? Doubtful.
Even Coady and Spearing would be behind Stewart in the squad player department.
So, let bygones be bygones. Maybe day some of the youths would reach a level where we pay a shitload of cash to have them back - and fair play to them. Hasn't happened thus far though.

21 Feb 2017 20:46:44
interesting debate MK and I would agree to some extent and then go further to say that some players simply don't wqork out at a club. And for the "big" clubs, or for a club like ours that has small margins to play with, we really are looking to strike lightening in a bottle with our signings.

I think that our greatest failings have been in not capitalizing on the moments where we have struck gold. Rafa's era, suarez sping to mind. and then obviously having stevie G for so long and not being able to consistently put a championship squad around him to make the most of his drive.

young players come and go, but are we really going to persist with a 20 yr old prospect until their mid 20s hoping they would hit their peak and not derail our performances at the same time!? I doubt that very much, and the evidence is clear that is something we don't do.

21 Feb 2017 20:52:32
zpecialone and Drigan - the point is that maybe we should have given them some more time to prove themselves in our squad. Do you really think that buying Brad Jones, who took the potential game time of Gulasci, was a good idea? Or that Suso's game time deserved to be spread around players like Assaidi, Downing, Victor Moses on loan and Joe Cole? Looking at that list of nonsense, what was the risk on giving him games?

The best example is missing from the list though. While we haven't had a strong CB pairing since Carragher retired and haven't had a good CDM since Lucas started getting injured, Mikel San Jose has been one of the best players in both positions in Spain (outside of Real and Barcelona obviously) for years!

21 Feb 2017 21:55:07
This wouldn't be a problem if we did what the big clubs do on the continent and add in buy back clauses. If we did this then young players that weren't getting opportunities could be sold to another club, get training and game time and we simply buy back. I know its not as straight forward as all that but big clubs in Europe use this method to good effect.

{Ed002's Note - It is incredibly rare in England for financial reasons.}

21 Feb 2017 22:02:54
Mk it was me who made the comment and it was about academy players, not players we paid 35 million for. I also said big clubs so Coady lighting up the championship doesn't mean much. Never thought of Gulacsi in fairness though.

21 Feb 2017 22:03:08
I think there is a very very small minority of players let go too soon by the club.
It's a risk, just like signing players, but movement of players is natural in football.

21 Feb 2017 22:35:42
Got to disagree. All the players you have mentioned are playing ok to a degree but at a lesser level than what is required to make it at Liverpool with the exception of maybe Suso, who still needed to get away for regular game time.

Liverpool need to compete at the very top of the premier league (unsuccessfully) so it is extremely difficult to give players 3,4,5 seasons to see if they will "make it". That is the reality and this also goes for players purchased for big money that should never have been at the club because they don't suit the way we play.

You have named 13 players that you think we have got rid of to early, but not one in my opinion plays at a higher level than LFC. If they did then there would be issues to sort out.

21 Feb 2017 23:08:37
Poolie,

On that front, Y don't we send a few of them on loans and see what they are capable of? I am not convinced with U23 games. It's by no means a scale to measure any player. How has warming on the bench helped any youngster ever? Nathan Ake is a brilliant example. Harry Wilson should be playing for a team with in the league under a loan. I am not sure what Klopp actually wants from some of the youngsters.

22 Feb 2017 00:34:26
It is a valid point hjikle, but I remain unconvinced that things would work out as that. However much we like to slate managers, they are still professionals who get to see most of these players much more often on the training ground. Usually there are reasons for players not getting picked up - like there being better alternatives, or in the least better suited for the system.
Not to mention that some of the originally listed players got their chance, like Benteke and Carrol - good players, who did not fit in the way we play football.
Now, with youth it is much more complex. Sadly, I do not see us as a good club for giving long-term chance to youth. We cannot be southampton - the fanbase will tear the club down. It takes significant time to nurture a talent, a time in which you are left behind by richer clubs. We went through a period of turmoil and gave chances to a nice young lad, Raheem of Stirling, that turned out well, eh? Ibe also got a lot of chances. Nice player, I like him, I wanted him to make it, but the coach decided that he is not good enough - not that he is not good, but not good enough. And in the short term, it is so - can you imagine what the fanbase would be doing if we had Ibe at 0 goals and 0 assists instead of a 35 million Mane? Let's be happy that some players are getting chances now, and hope that at least one or two would hold some role in the future.
Sorry for rambling, it is a little late.

22 Feb 2017 06:26:53
I'm most worried that you think Victor Moses is good enough, he's utter garbage.

22 Feb 2017 09:36:07
There are some points I agree with and others I don't MK. I do believe we give up on player too early such as Suso and have failed to give them proper game time, aspas and alberto, I can probably include Ibe Texeira and Ayala on that list too, given the rubbish we've brought in to replace them in some form, or not replace the in the squad at all.

I disagree however that Carrol would even fir into ourstyles ofverthe last few years, I;ve made it clear I think Studge needs to be cashed in on for a player thata ctally plays and can work as part of the system. Benteke is still woeful for palace and wastes a lot of their good balls ins, Spearing (I;ve ltierally not a clue why you've brought him up, he's found his level) If you're including Coady, you might as well include Shelvey, who is also a level above in that elague.

22 Feb 2017 09:57:26
Agree kingkenny. I never thought I'd write this but Harry, I totally agree with what your saying too. We need to find good loans for certain players and watch them playing in the premier league so we can judge them properly. like Chelsea did with Ake.

22 Feb 2017 11:23:36
is ake now a reguluar for Chelsea though? the argument could be made that he should have spent the entire season on loan at Bournemouth.

22 Feb 2017 11:26:10
I think everyone missed the point so never mind.

22 Feb 2017 13:10:03
Agree with you again Kingkenny. Brought back WAY. To early though, a full season there would have done wonders for him.

22 Feb 2017 13:36:43
San Jose is a good example hjikle. Glad you saw my main message. Perhaps I just wasn't clear enough.

I was not saying we should have Benteke and Carroll up front with Coady and Spearing in midfield! My point was, we seem to go through a vast amount of players meaning we are always in transition! We never give players a chance to develop. If I was a young pro with no ties to LFC I would not sign for the club because it has a history of taking a lot of it's players backwards in their careers or stifling their development.

This is not a new issue either. Rafa canned Riise after one bad season, Crouch for reasons beyond my understanding, Bellamy after 1 albeit troubled season, Keane after 6 months, Paletta before he kicked a ball, plus Benayoun was sent packing far too early.

I am not saying we should have kept these players, just opening up a debate on whether we give up on some players too soon. Daniel Ayala is another I missed who would probably be In our starting XI if he were still here. He certainly isn't worse than Lovren or Klavan!

It is easy to flippantly say "Aspas would never have been good enough" but how can we be sure? He had about 5 games as a consistent starter and then got ruthlessly replaced. People aren't considering the implications it has on a players development and confidence to basically be branded a failure without even getting a fair crack. We will never know how good some players could have been for us because we hounded them out.

I think that is what needs to change. If we gave every player the time Lucas, Henderson and Lallana have had, maybe we would be a better and more settled TEAM.

22 Feb 2017 13:58:34
you also have to take into account the amount of managerial changes we have been through in recent times, Rodgers not rating agger for example its also arguable some of those players should never have been signed in the 1st place. Great posts as usual MK.

22 Feb 2017 16:42:25
What? Crouch went because h wasn't good enough, and didn't come close to our style of play. Spearing was given time to develop, he was TERRIBLE most games. We've gone through those players because of the management changing so much, and BR's disasterous time in charge spending like a kid int he toy store. In that time though we've still shown (especially under klopp) youth will get opportunities. There are some positions though that they really need to move on EG Rossitter and Ibe (for their own careers sake) There's the odd occassion I disagree with KLOPP Ilori and tex) but that wouldn't put me off as a youth player.
I can't see the bad point of ditching Riise we hadAurelio wh was better and had just bought Dossena who much was thought of. Benayoun was a worker, never good enough for a team pushing for PLat the time for me. Ihonestly don't get your point. onhlysouthampton for me can really say they've produced better academy players and given them more tim tanus in recent years. Even Chelsea bin off themjority of their academy players, or buy them further down the line for more money.

23 Feb 2017 11:16:13
Majority of the players mentioned got plenty of chances to impress, which they did not. Not sure why you want to recall Ibe and Flanagan? Both have been extremely average ever since we started to overhype them. Carroll was never good enough and not certainly the way we played under two managers.







 

 

 
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