05 Sep 2017 08:29:44
Why are people already laying into Ox?
We paid a premium because he is a young, English attacker, with a lot of raw ability. He has been wasted by Wenger. His decision making in the final third was off yesterday, but try and remember he has been playing as a holding midfielder/ wing back for the last year and is probably a bit rusty now.
He hasn't even had a single training session with Klopp yet so just hold fire with the torch and pitchforks for crying out loud.
Additionally, even Dele Alli looks absolutely terrible for England and he is the best attacker we have as a nation. Flair players never look good in the national side because we constantly appoint turgid and robotic managers like McClaren, Eriksson, Hodgson, Capello and now Southgate! They aren't allowed to express themselves in the same way they can at club level.
Ox might not come good but the mass over reaction before he has even been to Melwood for a cup of tea is almost embarrassing lads. Personally i think we've bought a key player for the next 5 years at least. He has all the raw characteristics that Klopp likes. Patience is a virtue.
05 Sep 2017 08:33:49
MK.
I'm sure he'll come good under Klopp, with quality round him on the pitch.
I'm with you totally on this one.
05 Sep 2017 08:53:13
Well said.
05 Sep 2017 08:55:56
I like your write ups in general MK. But some of your choices makes me laugh unfortunately and you do have a special feeling for English players
To blame Mr Wenger for players like Wilshere, Walcott and AOX Is plain dumb stupid! £40 mill for someone who wouldn't come good! I would have taken a gamble for anyone who possesss SKILLSET
And regarding England. You are miles of from relaity or that you don't want to accept TRUTH!
England lacks Playmakers. The names you mentioned above who are big hit for their respective clubs has excellent ball playing Playmakers in the name of Coutinho, Erriksen, Mata and many more who feeds the like or Alli and Kane regularly!
England simply do not have a Silva, Isco, Modric or Coutinho to who links a half footed midfiled to attack!
AOX has pace and strength so does Adama traore and Aaron Lenon. Come back when you see anything else and we will talk MK!
05 Sep 2017 08:57:55
MK, I would not pay attention to those slagging AOC off. Some people are never happy and just moan whatever the weather. As you know, I am not his biggest fan BUT he is here now and really wanted to come here by all accounts so he gets my support, for sure. If Klopp can work his magic the same way he did with Lovren, Can, Hendo, Lallana, Mane and Wiji, then we will be fine.
05 Sep 2017 09:02:40
Adam you've made similar posts to these for weeks now talking up Oxlaide's abilities, how he simply wasn't used properly/ developed properly by Wenger, how he is perfect for Klopp's style, how he'll be a big player for us, etc etc. We get it, you like the player, you think he will do well - others are allowed to disagree with this and state their opinions - you're so dogmatic in your opinions yet call out others when they do they same, just waiting for the next batch of statistics now 'Oh the OX completed 85% of his passes last season and averaged 1.6 tackles a game which is very reasonable for an attacking midfielder'. I like some of your posts but you've gone overboard on Oxlaide-Chamberlain - as you've said he hasn't even had a cup of tea at Melwood yet, let's wait and see how he goes before drawing any hasty conclusions, one way or another.
05 Sep 2017 09:15:36
Let's just wait and see how he does in a Liverpool shirt then we can discuss him come January/ February time. Pointless judging him in last nights performance, pointless judging anyone on an international performance no matter how good or bad as players can look world beaters or really poor on the international scene. Remember Diouf for example, we got burned there as a club by getting World Cup fever. It works the other way too, players can look terrible for country but do the business week in week out for their clubs. Gerrard and Lampard are just two of many examples.
05 Sep 2017 09:23:51
For any of you old enough to remember how good John Barnes was for Liverpool, please remember how terrible he was for England. I'm not even from England but can remember how awful he was for them, then lit up the league a few days later. There are hardly any English internationals who have lit up the international stage over the past few decades, you'd do well to keep that in your little minds (those criticising AOC already) - get a grip!
I'm not comparing him to John Barnes by the way, I'm comparing him to all other English international players who have been poor to average for England in the last 50 or so years (probably 95% of those capped) . England are not even a top 10 side anymore. Sadio Mane looked awful for Senegal the other night too, he was absolutely terrible - he's done well in Klopp's system though eh?! Certainly much better than I'd bet all of you (including myself) predicted when we first signed him.
05 Sep 2017 09:27:54
It's the same with Robertson, he got panned before he'd played a game, all because he looked average in a poor Hull defence.
You're quite right about international football, it is so alien compared to the cut and thrust of premier league football. There is less space, less time on the ball and better organised opponents. Not to mention our poor international manager who lacks any kind of imagination.
For what it's worth I am looking forward to seeing what Klopp can get out of AOC. He is fast and strong on the ball which is always a bonus.
05 Sep 2017 09:29:56
Seano how have i gone over board? I'm just defending him because the Lynch mob have come out of their holes at the first opportunity.
All I've asked for is patience. I've not gone overboard with praise. I've very constructively questioned his finishing, his positional awareness and just now, his end product.
I'm just trying to give a balanced view on a hot topic. If people stopped slagging off our players, maybe I'd stop defending them. This post is barely about his ability anyway, it is a simple call for a bit of perspective.
Harry, you do confuse me sometimes. Walcott and Ox are not playmakers, and yes Wenger has wasted Walcott as well. He is 28 years old and i still don't know if he is a striker, an attacking midfielder or a winger. At 21 Walcott was banging in 10 a season and here we are 7 years later with him having not improved remotely.
Wilshere i will give you, he is so untalented it baffles me that he plays in the top flight.
Chamberlain is not ever intended to be a Modric or Silva type player though so your whole argument is akin to telling a brick wall it can't jump high enough. He is a winger who can play as an attacking midfielder. So why you've dragged Modric into the conversation is beyond me.
I also reject your statement that England don't produce playmakers. Carrick as exceptional. Scholes was world class. Gerrard in his later years was a great playmaker, if a little suspect defensively. Henderson is well on track to at least being at Carrick's level. Ward Prowse, Will Hughes, Onomah and Loftus Cheek are all on track to be top playmakers. England produce some great playmakers. You just don't like them because they are English.
05 Sep 2017 09:48:51
Personally I don't see the need in buying him, nor do I rate him, especially at the price paid.
However, Klopp likes him and obviously sees a role for him in the squad so I will trust his judgement.
He's a Liverpool player now and he will obviously put in a shift being a fan and all so he will always get my respect and support.
05 Sep 2017 09:52:52
Fully agree with the OP. Anyone here remember when Suarez was signed or worse, when he was suggested as the replacement for Torres? 'Another rubbish signing from a weak league when we should be signing Aguero' 'Anyone can look good in the Dutch league, even my nan and she's been dead for ten years! ' are just a few I remember off the top of my head.
Nevermind AOC, the level of negative hysteria for all the players beggars belief. A new player comes into the fold; he needs to settle into the group, settle into his neighbourhood, maybe settle the family as well. "He's on obscene wages mate! " Yes "Can't we have an opinion that he's shit" Of course. But until a few shabby games to justify criticism, perhaps we should all start justifying why Ed02 mocks us for 'The Liverpool Way'?
05 Sep 2017 09:55:16
It's basically a test of Klopp's coaching skills. All the pieces of the puzzle are there, but so far nobody has been able to put them together yet - let's hope we can.
05 Sep 2017 09:57:29
Completely respect that view mikey1985. Got no problem with people having reservations over a new player, as long as it doesn't descend into slagging them off before they've had a fair crack. At least you're willing to support him and see how it goes mate.
These boards would be boring without contrasting opinions. It's just nice to see respectable negativity for a change!
05 Sep 2017 09:57:39
Sorry MK, But you got me wrong there. I was referring to your usual ". Why England is always crap. " and let's not judge a player on that basis. Why England is crap coz they lack a world class playmaker and hardly a manager fault. Give the same team to Jose and he will struggle! Nothing to do With manager here. They lack genuine class!
Have you ever thought why England has never produced another scholes?
Name which are those English Playmakers that are
Lighting up any league?
UTD - Pogba / Mata
Liverpool - Coutinho
Arsenal - Carzola
Spurs - Erriksen / Dembele
Chelsea - Fabregas
PSG - Verratti
Barcelona - Iniesta / Rakitic
Real - Modric / Isco
Juventus - Pjanic
Did I miss any team that has an ENGLISH PLAYMAKER?
The fact is England doesn't possess anyone who would come close to Ben Woodburn let alone an experienced playmaker!
05 Sep 2017 09:58:31
It's all go in here this morning.
05 Sep 2017 10:12:21
So Harry, so if you say England's issue is not the manager but their lack of a playmaker then surely you can't judge the other players if they are no chance without one?
05 Sep 2017 10:36:04
Hang on Harry, let's just drop the "playmaker" word for a while. Are you on about deep creators ala Modric, Cazorla and Dembele? (that is my definition of a playmaker) Or a No.10 such as Isco, Coutinho or Mata?
You've just reeled off a list of technically gifted players there, but there are massive variations in their positions.
In terms of a Modric type midfielder, England produce plenty. Not at his level currently, but Henderson can play that role and England have a good crop coming through as i listed in my previous reply.
If however you are referring to a No.10 then i agree England don't really produce that kind of player, but that is because grass roots football is largely 4-4-2. The closest you'll find to a No.10 in English football are the likes of Alli, Lampard, the young Gerrard etc. We don't commonly play tippy tappy football in this country. Our No.10 players are essentially second strikers or goal scoring midfielders; whatever you'd prefer to call them. Which is why the likes of Lampard, Gerrard and Alli are good for 20-25 goals a season unlike your Coutinho, Mata and Isco types who rarely surpass 10-15. We don't play intricate football in the final third. We have the deep creators for the build up play, but English football is very much geared around playing it in to a big striker for him to lay it off to runners, getting it in behind for a fast striker, or getting it out wide to cross into the box.
You are judging a nation on not producing a breed of player that they have no need for. I'm sorry but i wouldn't have swapped Gerrard for Kaka in their prime years. Kaka probably had the fanciest tricks, but he never scored the goals Gerrard did.
England do produce deep creators, but we don't produce No.10's. You need to learn the difference because putting Coutinho/ Isco and Modric/ Dembele in the same bracket of simply being a "playmaker" is ridiculous. Isco and Modric play in the same team, if you need any more proof they play completely different positions.
If you are purely talking about technical ability, i suggest you watch some videos of Beckham, Scholes, Gerrard, Fowler, Gazza, Barnes etc and then come and tell me England don't produce skilful/ creative players. You need to clarify your argument though mate. England have a bit of a baron spell right now, but as you saw from the youth tournaments this summer just gone, we produce players who can play some cracking football. Just don't expect Spanish/ Brazilian type football. It's not in our nature.
05 Sep 2017 11:02:13
Lol MK! You are twisting the whole topic and taking to somewhere where you are convenient!
The fact remains as it always been England lack players.
Players who makes the Alli and Kane a massive hit at their respecibe clubs. You don't need to write a 3 pages essay to say something which doesn't exist.
Playmaker could play any positions. It's not a fixed 8 or 10.
nor they are defined by a number. I have given you 10 Playmakers who plays for their clubs and you haven't given the me one English player in return. Why don't you make it simple and give me a name. Makes it easy rather trying to find a Nrwton's 5th law of analysis!
David Silva is the playmaker at City while Coutinho is asked to do that job at Liverpool and Mata / Pogba dictates the game at UTD. Now their number and positions varies but their TASK IS SAME.
Name one English player who is asked to do this for their club and I agree with your view.
England do produce creators, Like who mate? The last one was Carrick / Scholes or Gerrard ( Genhije class on the ball ) Eric Dier is another average player without a Dembele and Alli wil remain a frustrated youngster without Errisken!
I agree with your last line " don't expect Brazilian and Spanish football in England " Yes that's why Spain is called technical football and English league is called physical rugby! That is why the artists are imported from Spain / Germany and Brazil while the athletes are employed in England.
Forget playmakers, Give me an English version of Mane or Woodburn lol. They don't have one! Simple!
Football is an art and English team doesn't have it, I am
Sorry hence they produce Walcott and AOX in numbers while Spain / Germany produces Asensio, Brandt and Meyer's
Cheers.
05 Sep 2017 11:46:51
English football academies haven't been trying to produce a Coutinho until very recently though. I'm not twisting anything.
If you must though.
Deeper playmakers still playing:
Henderson - Captain of a Champions league club
Drinkwater - Champion with Leicester and mega move to Chelsea
Carrick - multiple domestic and European titles for the biggest club in world football
And whilst we don't produce your classic No.10 we have a host of talented attackers such as Lallana, Alli, Chamberlain etc.
England don't produce the type of player you are talking about on a regular basis. Just like how Spain have never produced a midfielder capable of scoring 20 goals a season like Gerrard or Lampard.
Why are you being so deliberately ignorant of my point?
You just claimed that Modric and Isco are both the same type of player that England can't produce. They are totally different. Your beloved Fabregas has just been replaced by Drinkwater.
05 Sep 2017 12:05:05
MK is right. Simple. We can't start judging ox before he has even played for us. That's like calling a man a rapist because he has a dick. Let's give the guy a chance. Personally I thought he looked pretty dangerous. His pace is explosive.
When it comes to England I sense a lot of big egos who are more interested in furthering their own reputations than helping England do well. It really annoys me. They are also rubbish scared of making the tiniest mistake and thus it is like playing in treacle. The media needs to get off their backs and maybe we will start seeing some free playing football we all know England are capable of. I see divisions in the England team, perhaps because we are at the beginning of the domestic league. The northern lads and the Londoners. The spurs players and arsenal players (or ex arsenal) I don't think I saw Ali pass to AOC. instead he tries to beat two players so he can pick out kane.
I think the England players need to spend more time together. People slated hodgson constantly but we played nice football under him. If you hire an ex cb to be England manager then this is the sort of football you will get.
We missed rooney tbh. Hendo was the only player who switched the ball and stitched play together. Deli Ali seems to be the big hope regarding a playmaker. I don't rate him. Perhaps I have never watched spurs much but I've never seen him play well. Nothing near enough to be praised as much as he is. He must do it for spurs coz he definitely ain't doing it for england.
The last time we had a manager capable of winning something with England was Glenn Hoddle. Sacked by the media because he is buddist.
05 Sep 2017 12:05:55
Henderson a deep lying playmaker? Sorry MK, I disagree.
Drinkwater? My word! Carrick - Yes but he is not playing anymore. The fact remains you don't have any names! But that's ok!
Your lists that included AOX, Lallana and Drinkwater is the reason they don't get out from the group stages of any major tournament but takes pride in beating the likes of San Marino in the qualifications.
I am lost for words on this list! If I start pulling up quality players from Germany / France, You ll faint!
05 Sep 2017 12:13:53
Also, in case you are blind, Woodburn was produced by England. He has been in the Liverpool academy for over a decade. He just has a Welsh relative. Most of the Welsh national side are produced in England.
In your list as well there is not one German player. They are the best national team in world football and they have their own individual style.
England's problem isn't a lack of quality players. It is managers not playing to the players strengths. Why are they trying to control possession and pick holes in a banked up defence? They should by flying at teams on the break.
You are blaming the players for a managerial and coaching shortfall which is just ridiculous to put it frankly.
You have your own idea of what is art and how the game should be played, but not every person, manager, country etc agrees. England/ Britain produce world class wide men like Barnes, Beckham, McManaman, Best, Giggs, Bale AND powerful attacking midfielders like Lampard, Gerrard, Gazza, Alli etc. The reason England have underperformed recently is because they have not been producing good enough wide players. Maybe Sterling and Chamberlain are the start of that changing. Maybe not. But English academies don't usually try and create a No.10. Technically gifted players are almost always put out wide. It is a choice.
Have a look at the difference between Picasso and Van Gogh and maybe then you'll understand that beautiful art is purely an opinion and there is no right or wrong. Only what works and what doesn't.
05 Sep 2017 12:20:36
Harry you really don't have a clue at times. Henderson dictates our play, not Coutinho/ Can etc.
Drinkwater dictated Leicesters play, not Kante/ Mahrez etc.
Carrick was the master puppeteer for United last season. Look at their record with and without him despite him bring in his late 30's.
Ward-Prowse, Loftus-Cheek and Josh Onomah are all top class young players who played your Spains/ Hollands/ Germanys off the park in the youth internationals this summer just gone.
England are short on top talent in their prime right now, but between 2000-2010 they had the best midfielders in world football and they are starting to produce another decent generation.
You are just oblivious because you like shiny new things and can't appreciate what we have. I'm done with this debate now because you are just talking rubbish.
05 Sep 2017 12:31:39
Superred
Deli Ali is not a playmaker. The one who feeds Ali and his movement or runs in between channels is called a real
Playmaker. At Spurs it's more like Dembele and Erriksen while at England there is NONE!
England can hire any mangers in the world and they will still doom in the Atlantic! They have no genuine class compare to Spain or Germany. No wonder the big clubs in England import skill set from outside!
05 Sep 2017 12:50:42
Personally I don't particularly rate Oxlade, I must state that (but then I am of the opinion this is the worst generation of English footballers for a long time) . However, he is here now and he was that desperate to play for the club he supports that he is earning almost half of what he would have got at Chelsea and a third less than staying at Arsenal. So he isn't motivated by money. I will judge him what he does in a Liverpool shirt from now on and not an England shirt or an Arsenal shirt.
05 Sep 2017 13:00:12
The clubs shoot themselves in the foot too We can't defend, they all tend to look for the physical type players at a young age rather than technique and they still focus on that. The game needs radically changing in this country, the sad thing is that this is the same thing that has been said for almost 30+ years.
05 Sep 2017 13:28:00
Rooney
Drinkwater
Barkly
Lallana
Carrick
Wilshire
AOC
Deli Ali
Ramsey (I know he is Welsh but he sounds English to me)
All decent playmakers.
Gerrard
Lampard
Two of the very best playmakers in the world.
Barnes, redknapp, Beardsley. England have always produced good playmakers, we have pinned our hopes on hyped up forwards in recent years. Rooney and Owen were fantastic but in the past we have relied on bang average strikers like Bent, Cole, vardy, wellbeck. I like the look of Marcus Rashford but I just know the media are going to start portraying him as the new Pele as the world cup draws near. I think rooney would have scored even more if the pressure hadn't put placed firmly on his shoulders.
Drop Ali and get rashford and kane playing together more often. Wouldn't be surprised if kane went to united one day, when the spurs bubble bursts.
05 Sep 2017 13:31:02
Just to point out, there are different types of playmakers. There's the Ronnie Whelan type of playmaker - deep lying as well as pretty defensive and then there's the Coutinho type of more advanced playmaker who mainly just attacks. England have lots of deep lying (not very good) playmakers and none that I can think of off the top of my head who play the advanced role, flair players if you like.
05 Sep 2017 13:53:45
MK
Henderson dictates the game? I rest my case there! Henderson wins the ball and hand it to Coutinho!
{Ed001's Note - like he did against Arsenal? You do talk some nonsense. You might want to try actually watching him play before making comments like that. Then you will realise just how ludicrous your comment is.}
05 Sep 2017 14:01:43
Harry is back to his old self again, God help us all.
05 Sep 2017 14:06:30
Ali is the forward thinking playmaker oirish kev. He plays in the hole. That is a playmaker isn't it? He stitches up the midfield to attack.
05 Sep 2017 18:18:52
More like a deep lying forward for me. But tomato/ toematoe (if ya get me) lol.
I do see your point though, he can play the role but remains to be seen if he can do it at international level.
05 Sep 2017 18:23:56
Superred neither Rooney nor Drinkwater are decent play makers!
{Ed025's Note - what a crock..
05 Sep 2017 19:32:47
All the england forward line were terrible! Selfish no passing bad decision making one man going on his own like my under 12s!
05 Sep 2017 19:34:06
MK, aoc has limitless potential and I'm sure klopp will get it out of him, great buy. But if others don't rate him then leave them to it, there allowed there opinion on the kid, the same people will be back on when he does the business bigging him up.