10 Sep 2017 19:19:56
I've waited 24 hours so i am calmer than i was yesterday with alcohol in my system. I have to say though, that I'm still seething even sober. Not at the red, but at the lack of fight from a few players and surprisingly from Klopp. Thank god for being in the Champions league because if i had to wait a week for us to make amends for that I'd struggle.
My calm-ish take on the game?
Mignolet was atrocious but for a few saves he should be making and one good save from Aguero at the back post. He came flying off his line to make Aguero's goal easy, he came flying off his line to gift Jesus a header which was fortunately offside, he came flying out to make Jesus second goal easy, got beaten at his near post for Sane's first and got nowhere near the 2nd or 5th although they were good goals. Worst performance from a keeper in a red shirt in my lifetime. Defence didn't help him but nor did he help them!
Arnold got turned inside out but he was badly let down by his team mates when they started doubling up on him. Learning curve hopefully.
Matip was absolutely awful and looked disinterested. Laziest player on the pitch.
Klavan just kept taking too long on the ball. Why did he start?
Moreno actually played okay but they rarely attacked his flank.
Can had his worst game in over a year in midfield. He was weak on the ball, his passing was poor and he looked disinterested. Then he went into centre back and was our best defender. He made some very good recoveries.
Gini should've played. Wait? He did? Oh.
Henderson won possession back a lot for us, but kept giving it straight back after the red card. Didn't help with us being down a man but he should've calmed everyone down, rather than join in with the panic.
Mane looked on for at least a couple of goals. Otamendi should've been sent walking for a very late two footed challenge into his guts after Fernandinho had tripped Mane up for a booking. Apparently late tackles are only worth booking people if the victim pretends to be in a coma though 🙄 in all seriousness, the red card was 50/ 50. I say it's not, some say it is. Rules aren't clear enough to give a definitive answer hence the split in opinion. Mane went for the ball though, and was just a touch too late. Ritchie got a yellow today for a similar thing. Swings and roundabouts.
Firmino barely touched the ball and should've come off at half time. Why play a false 9 as a target man?
Salah was our best player and was guaranteed to get at least one of them sent off and maybe bag a goal or two before the red. They couldn't cope with him at all but after the red he was stupidly dropped deeper and then subbed. We'd have been better off leaving Salah on their last man instead of Firmino.
Milner, Chamberlain and Solanke were all given the near impossible task of trying to change that game after Klopp had already decided he didn't care about winning. Klopp got his reaction to the red card all wrong though. We should've gone harder for the win but attempts at damage limitation made it more embarrassing.
I guess we move on now. I don't think there is anything new to take from this. Mignolet and Matip are still not good enough to be first team players, and Klopp is terrible at making the right substitutions! Shock horror 😂 in terms of the result, pointless judging the team or our season on it. The ref ruined the game in my opinion. I'm glad Ederson is okay, but if he'd been a man and stood up to show he was grazed and not unconscious, i think the ref may have made a different decision. Contact sports invariably result in collisions and if you take the phrase "endangering" too literally, you could literally send off anybody for any tackle that gets the man. I've seen ankles broken and skulls cracked for seemingly innocuous challenges. The resulting injury should not be taken into consideration. The intent and the brutality should. The debate will rage on though! I am not going to call the ref names (not now I'm sober) though, because as i said earlier, it is a 50/ 50 decision on a 50/ 50 tackle. G. Neville and Carragher disagreed and you would be surprised at which one of them was on Mane's side, put it that way!
Sevilla now and let's hope we beat them 6-0!
{Ed025's Note - good summary MK but im afraid it was not 50/50 mate..100/0..
10 Sep 2017 19:36:03
I thought you changed your username Adam 😎😎. Everything happened. Man sent off, lost, we did not score.
10 Sep 2017 19:42:06
MK, you make some very good points. Saying Klopp does not care about winning is a low blow and you should be ashamed, MK. If that was the case, how did we win the most points from losing positions last season, then? We were always going to lose that game, genkius and it was a case of not if but by how many. He made a decision based on the scenario of the game. He chose to just pack it in and try to limit the damage. Had he gone for for it and got spanked 8-0, you would be on here saying that he should have just limited the damage, right? Everyone is a genius after the fact so pls, enough with that stuff.
Also pls, enough with the debate over the red card. It is not Ederson's job to be a man about a damn thing. Mane put his foot up onto a head-high ball. Gk comes out, heads the ball away and catches a face full of studs. There is no way on earth that a scenario like that will go unpunished by a straight red. No Way! If Mane had used his head instead of his foot, I guarantee you that he does not get sent off regardless of the outcome. That is simply a given. On to Sevilla and hopefully, we can right the ship.
10 Sep 2017 20:05:37
Ed25 is correct 50% of the people saw it as a 100% redcard.
10 Sep 2017 20:12:41
I agree with much of your points MK (aside from the sending off as I'm also a referee) . I cannot understand why Klopp bought Robertson, cannot see why he can't see the obvious that Gomez and Robertson are our best full backs. We cannot play the midfield 3 together for all the reasons you highlighted and we need a genuine no 9 starting the game. If AOC is so good in Klopp eyes why did he not go straight in? Why have we not replaced our goalkeepers with a quality no1?
I have no idea what Klopp is trying to do, is it to win every game 5-4 coz he has no clue how to to play any other way.
Honeymoon period is over, he's had more transfer windows than Mourinho so time to deliver.
10 Sep 2017 20:30:27
Sonofklopp, genuine question here, if mane makes exactly the same action but it doesn't result in a collision is it still a red for being dangerous? You don't have to run someone over to be knicked for drink driving, the action regardless of the consequences is your done. I'm not saying it was t a red btw, just wondering if it's the action in its self or because there was a collision. Cheers.
10 Sep 2017 21:06:26
Actually Bingo i said to my father in law at half time "i would rather lose 4-1 trying to win than shut up shop and keep it at 2-0". As it happened, Klopp tried to shut it down and it backfired. It was a decision which severely lacked ambition. Chelsea down to 10 men fought back against Burnley on the opening day and nearly got a draw. It made the score line respectable though and gave the fans something to cheer.
Klopp bottled it. Took off a forward to switch to 5-3-1 and just play hoof ball to a 5ft10 attacking midfielder/ false 9. He was already planning his Sevilla line up before their 3rd goal even hit the net. That was the only thing anybody should be ashamed about.
On the red card, if it was as stone wall as you are making out people like Guardiola, Clattenburg, G. Neville etc wouldn't be saying it was harsh/ wrong. It is one of them decisions where people will see it differently. I can accept that, so why can't you?
10 Sep 2017 20:59:14
Hi Lfc H2, of course endangering an opponents safety is purely subjective, like many decisions in football however in this case I agree with what's been said on other pages of the site in that the same challenge was made by a Newcastle player today and he got away with it as a yellow card, it appears because he did not make contact. I believe Mike Jones got this terribly wrong today and has increased the pressure on his colleagues as a result.
The pace and reckless nature of both challenges endangers the safety of an opponent, as you rightly alluded to you are sent off for violent conduct whether you actually strike an opponent or miss and serious foul play is exactly the same. If you attempt a violent Kung-fu kick at an opponent but miss by 2 yards you should still be sent off. I suspect John Moss will be supported and Mike Jones made an example of by the PGMO because such inconsistency needs to be kept to a minimum, so soon after he should have been prepared and brave enough to issue a red card.
{Ed025's Note - very good post that SOK and i totally agree mate..
10 Sep 2017 21:16:22
Agree MK placing the UCL ahead of the EPL is not acceptable and Klopp clearly wrote the game off at 2-0. Given City were so vulnerable themselves he let everyone down by planning for Wednesday and giving up with 45 mins to go, what must the players think if he makes decisions like that? Klopp is not going to get away with being funny in interviews and jumping up and down in the technical area if the team he sends out continues to underperform in that manner. He better buck up, he's not the Messiah he's very naughty boy 😈.
10 Sep 2017 21:22:41
Cheers SoK.
10 Sep 2017 21:32:00
Cheers Bluenose Ed025 mate, as a ref I have to be honest even though I do go ballistic when glaring errors go against my team, I actually thought the worst performance of the weekend was Neil Swarbrick Stoke v Utd as he let so many yellow card challenges go with just a verbal warning. There are too many top flight officials running up and down but not making decisions in my opinion.
Mike Dean and Michael Oliver are the best around as they can't be influenced and never bottle a decision, they simply give what they see and also admit to their mistakes.
The FA and PGMO are now hell bent on producing robots with no personality (in the name of aiming for consistency) and it's sad to witness. Many games at the lower levels are improved for the players and spectators by referees showing personality and humour.
Fitter referees for the professional game, absolutely agree, the game is so quick now, but please allow them to act like human beings who can also smile and enjoy their game too. Too much money and pressure in the game is killing the fun for players, managers, officials alike, Sadly.
{Ed025's Note - absolutely mate..
10 Sep 2017 21:48:47
Welcome Lfc H2, I think going on about referees decisions deflects too much from the gaping holes Klopp has failed to address, goalkeeper, centre backs, striker. His reluctance to play Gomez right back and Robertson left back for a run of games is also baffling to me.
He has improved central midfield but not until '18/ '19 season, playing 3 similar players in the centre of midfield is an error in my opinion. I'd rather we played 3 centre backs, 2 holding centre mids, wing backs and 3 forwards with free roles to be honest. I kept thinking yesterday Salah is wasting the opportunities after skinning Otamendi so why not switch him and Mane for 10 minutes, Klopp seems totally inflexible whereas Conte adapted and won the bloody title by stumbling on a solution.
Drives me mad these managers get well paid and over complicate the game thinking they are innovating, utter crap. I called Rodgers "The Emperors New Clothes" don't know how that translates in German but I for one am concerned by our managers lack of flexibility and bonkers substitutions. If he was English there'd be a lot more desent about the lack of improvement by now.
10 Sep 2017 22:25:51
MK, if you are using the opinions of Neville, Clattenburg and the rest to support your point then sorry, you have NO point at all. I would prefer to debate you based on the opinion that YOU have rather than someone else's. Also, you nor I don't get to tell Klopp what he should or should not prioritize. He has to do what is best for his team at that time and that is what he did. I may or may not agree with it BUT I understand it. Why? Cos I have played and watched the game long enough to unlike you, not think like a fan. I try to think like a manager who has a lot more on his plate that you or I.
He made a decision to limit the damage and that is that. Going for it with the types of mistakes we were making at the back would have been more than suicidal so be happy it was only 5. Had we done what you propose, it would have been worse cos if they could find gaps with us trying to defend as poorly as we did on the first 3 goals, they would have found tonnes more gaps whenever we attacked and hitting us on the break and at that point, it would have been in the double digits. But of course, that'a not your problem now, is it? Again, think like a manager and you will understand a lot more than you do thinking like a supporter.
11 Sep 2017 06:48:27
Bingo you're just acting like a know it all because you think you've played football at a decent level. Teams have come from behind with 10 men in the past and will do so again. Klopp bottled it. OPINION.
11 Sep 2017 08:56:40
I am not a know it all. I take things based on context and circumstances that happen in the moment cos in football and sports, that is how it is mostly done esp. right after a game like that. Saying teams have come from behind to win with 10 men is nothing but a false equivalence as we do not know the context of those games, the attacking ability of the other team, and what players in what positions where sent off as that, dictates what tactical changes you make going forward.
Again, I'm not a know-it-all. I just try to delve deeper into things as you and I know that context matters. If you think Klopp bottled it cos we did not go for it more then you are free to have that opinion. We saw Utd go for it more when they lost a man vs City and got hammered 6-1 and it could have been in the double digits for them as well. That is fact and that fact is what I base my opinion on cos things are not always cut and dry. Nice debate, tho.
11 Sep 2017 11:37:06
Sono, Klopp made the selection decisions based on the fitness info he had on the players. Moreno was at Melwood all week unlike Robbo who was away with Scotland so Moreno starts as he is fresher. Lovren played two games with Croatia within 48 hrs so again, Klavan playing makes sense. Gomez is a good defender BUT is not a RB. He is a CB and is only playing there so he can get back to full fitness after a long injury layoff.
You also say that we needed to play w/ a real no. 9. What has Firmino done to displace him from being the starter? Where you this anxious for a true no. 9 when he was leading the line very well for us vs Watford, Hoffenheim and Arsenal, scoring and assisting. Now suddenly cos we lost a game, he is now crap?
Honeymoon period? What honeymoon period for Klopp has ended? You mean the period where we fought tooth and nail to get to the CL, beating Arsenal and Utd (who had to give it up getting there via the league and make it via EL) to make it into the top 4? Come on, man. Your knee jerk reactions is pretty lame. We lost a game and there is a lot to learn from it as regardless of the red card, there were things there that still needed improvement.
Whatever Klopp did or did not do, it's all hindsight and everyone seems to be a genius after all the facts have been known. I don't deal in that nonsense as it adds nothing useful to the debate. We learn and move on, end of. On to Seville in the CL now, you know that thing that Klopp got us into against all odds?
12 Sep 2017 07:50:49
Sorry he learns nothing, same mistakes over and over. You will recall we scrapped into the 4th place after betting City on NYE to look like title favourites.
He did not address our weaknesses or strengthen up front in terms of finishing, Sturridge is the only natural finisher in the squad.
Not knee jerk by the way as I predicted last January that we would fall away in the league and get knocked out of the cups.
Klopp has done no better than Rodgers but everyone is creaming over him because he's a fashionable foreign manager. Well I judge managers on signings, results and tactics not hype.
Yet again this is season when we should challenge for the title as, despite all the money spent, City are clueless at the back, Arsenal in disarray, Man Utd the usual Mourinho grind results out with boring football, Spurs Wembley factor and Chelsea with off the field distractions and no replacement for Matic.
I don't care what level of football you've played Bingo, some of the greatest players make shocking managers, I've been watching for 45 years and study the game religiously, we need someone who can clinically bury the chances, a goalkeeper and centre back. Until that is addressed and Keita comes in also we will be a 4th-8th placed side, simply not good enough. 4th for me is nothing to be singing and dancing about, the only thing is should do is attract better quality players.
Come back to me after our next two league games and let me know all about these lessons Klopp will have learnt from the 5-0 defeat at the weekend.
12 Sep 2017 07:54:22
PS Firminio is a number 10 and I would start him in the side actually. For number 9 read Fowler, Owen, Torres, Suarez, Rush, Keegan, Hunt i. e. A goal scorer.