12 Sep 2017 11:34:45
The goalkeeper debate had been raging long before Saturday’s game but any game where five goals are conceded will always bring questions. On Saturday Migs faced 10 shots on target and conceded half of them. Aguero’s goal and Jesus’ second where both the result of the strikers getting through on goal, in these situations the only way a goal will be denied is if the attacker makes a mistake, neither did and Migs is entirely blameless. Sane’s second goal was a looping shot from outside of the box close to the top corner of the goal, again no blame can be afforded to the keeper.
Jesus’ first goal was a free header from the edge of the six yard box. The ball played in was a whipped right foot inswinging cross from the left, never was the flight of the cross within six yards of the goal. Whilst it is theoretically possible that Migs could have reached the ball if he had instantly moved to Jesus’ position that ignores the requirement to judge the flight of the ball before doing so. There is no realistic way that Migs could have made that judgement then moved the six yards to challenge before it had reached Jesus. If had tried we would currently be criticising Migs for making a bad decision to come off his line. Should Migs have saved the shot? It was a free bullet header from six yards, whilst it wasn’t completely out of his reach it was far enough away and headed with enough power that it is unrealistic to expect Migs to save it.
Sane’s first goal was from an angle, through on goal and scored at the near post, it was an excellent finish. There is an argument that Migs could have covered the near post better and if he had it is likely he would have saved it. The mitigation for Migs is that City’s interplay was so quick and the finish so assured that it gave Migs no time to react. Whilst this goal could have been saved my assessment is that the attacking play gets the credit rather than Migs the criticism. There was not one goal conceded on Saturday which we should have expected Migs to save, criticism of him, in this case, is unjustified.
Having said all that we all know that Migs is at a standard below the top tier of goalkeepers. I agree with Ed1’s assessment that he doesn’t inspire confidence in his backline, should he be dropped due to his general deficiencies rather than the City game? What I don’t agree with Ed1 about is that Karius should be brought in as a better option. We can make all the excuses about media pressure we want but last season Karius was dropped after a run of 10 games because he was making costly mistakes, even if the criticism was unfair the fact that the pressure was too much is a bad sign, there isn’t a position that faces more pressure than the goalkeeper, if Karius can’t handle it is unlikely he will become a top class keeper. Even in his game this season all the talk afterwards was about his mistakes on the ball, Migs may not inspire confidence in his defenders, but Karius doesn’t either. When we brought Karius in I questioned Ed2 about how we got a prospect so cheaply, Ed2 said there was no particular reason. In seems we payed market value and Karius was a very cheap keeper. I have no confidence that he is a better option than Migs.
That leaves Ward who many are calling to be given a chance. I will admit that I haven’t really watched him and I can make no evidence based assessment of his abilities. What I can say is that I believe the ‘how can we know how good he is if he doesn’t play’ argument is a logical fallacy. We may not know how good he is but the person who picks the teams does. The fact that Ward is third choice behind both Migs and Karius does not bode well, I believe that if he was a better keeper Klopp would give him games, the only logical conclusion is that he isn’t playing because he’s not as good as the others.
So where do we go from here? Migs is the best of a bad bunch and, as long as he’s not making mistakes and costing up points, he keeps the shirt. I do not believe our next first choice keeper is at the club. Our transfer priority, maybe just after a new CB, should be a goalkeeper. Frankly we need to identify the best goalkeeper in the world, not currently at a tier one club, and pay whatever’s needed to bring them in, if not in January then definitely next summer.
{Ed001's Note - hang on, you are making up crap. I have never once said Karius is a better option, I have simply said he might be but we don't know. Until he gets a proper run, we simply do not know. Ward was much better, albeit in the Championship, than Migs has been at any point in his career, except for the couple of weeks at the end of the season when he played out of his skin.
The only thing we know is that Migs is a disaster waiting to happen. We have years of evidence to know that he is not the answer. So why stick with him? He has to go or we can forget ever winning the league. Anyone who thinks he is the best we have is guessing, especially someone who admits they haven't even seen one of the other options play and is judging another on his cost! Idiocy at its finest to judge a player on his price tag only. We got him cheap because of who he plays for, it was that simple.
While we are about it, how can you absolve a keeper completely of blame while admitting he could have done better? What about how we are so damn crap at set pieces and it is his job to organise the defence? Why is he only judged on whether or not he makes saves? His game should be more than that. I really do not want to just jump on Migs, but you can't just absolve him for failure because you are ignorant about the alternatives and too cowardly to take a chance that they might be better!}
12 Sep 2017 12:17:24
Putney, you are talking absolute BS. Your post shows that you want to have it all 30 different ways. You cannot on one hand Migs had no chance on all the goals (which is false as he is at fault for their 2nd, 4th and potentially 5th goals), absorbing him of all blame while at the same time say, he is crap. Both of those things CANNOT be true at the same time.
And don't try to rewrite history here regarding Karius. Karius made two mistakes that led to goals in 10 games. TWO so your idea that he made several mistakes is patently false and YES, he was hounded out of the team due to our own supporters getting on his back and taking sides with a pathetic manc named Neville. That is what happened. And in those 10 games, we only conceded 7 goals (4 in one game, mind you) . Not saying Karius is great or anything BUT like Ed, we don't know if he or Ward is the right option as neither has had a firm run in the team. If you think ten games is enough to judge any player then thank heavens you don't coach LFC cos there will be no players left after binning them after ten games. Pep knew Hart was crap and binned him, ASAP. He brought in Bravo, gave him a full season, he was crap and he has Ederson now. Do you see anyone giving Pep grief over what he did? No and you won't cos that is how coaching is done. You act on what you know for sure and gather information on what you don't know.
Let us focus on what we know. Migs is crap, end of story. Karius is better than Migs in terms of his ability to play the sweeper keeper, quicker off his line and has better distribution (three bad kicks vs Arsenal prove nothing) . He just needs more experience in the PL. Same with Ward, who is also potentially better than Migs as well. So now that we know that Migs is crap, why should we keep playing him whereas we have two young and talented GK's we can coach up and work on and give a full run of games to so we can see if either one is the solution or if we should go get another one?
If you are okay with the devil you know (Migs) instead of the angel you don't know (Karius or Ward), that is your problem. We all don't have to go down such a cowardly path and Klopp is already letting Migs know that his place is under peril and in the end, Karius will be back in goal and you and I will have to get over it.
12 Sep 2017 12:19:20
For both goals their strikers went through, Mignolet bombed off his line and threw himself to the floor. Aguero easily side stepped him and Jesus just lifted it over him because he went down so early. I agree he Isn't expected to save these, but a good keeper would probably stop one. Ederson stopped Salah in a one on one and then Mane. Mignolet just made it easy for them.
For City's second, Mignolet had sent the whole team into a panic because 4 minutes earlier he had again flown off his line for a cross, missed it completely and gifted Jesus an open goal. Fortunately, that was struck off correctly for offside. The fact remains though that he filled City with confidence and Liverpool with fear. So a few minutes later they put a ball into the exact same area, knowing Jesus was full of confidence, knowing Mignolet was too scared to come out again, and knowing our defence was panicking due to having a useless keeper behind them. The header was good and he had no chance with it in my opinion, but he created that 10 minute panic by being a tool in the first place.
City's 4th was an absolutely shocking goal to concede. It was at his front post and i don't care how well struck it is, decent keepers don't concede at their front post; at least not as regularly as Mignolet does. That is 2 this season already.
City's 5th was incredibly well struck and another you don't say he has to save. But again, top keepers pull off unexpected saves. De Gea, Lloris, Cech, Courtois etc would've at least got fingers on it, if not stopped it. Mignolet didn't even get near it though and he never does.
I'm not blaming Mignolet for the defeat. The whole team was useless from the red card onwards. However, Mignolet yet again has made a handful of saves he should be making, caused panic in the defence, made it far to easy for the opposition, and not helped us out at all.
He's bang average mate. This is a guy who has previously been dropped for Brad Jones and Bogdan. He will never be good enough and he needs to be removed from the side ASAP. He brings nothing to us that any keeper in the top 2 tiers of English football wouldn't bring.
I have seen Ward play, and regardless of what Klopp thinks, he is better than Mignolet. Klopp isn't an all seeing all knowing god. He gets things wrong and sticking with Mignolet is a massive error in judgement.
12 Sep 2017 12:53:24
Excellent description of the goals, MK. In fact on the first one, Migs could have not flown off his line BUT goaded Aguero to actually shoot by staying on his line, delay him, narrow the angle as he was already going wide, and then go after him. However, I'm splitting hairs here. All in all, I agree that a red card should not prevent us from performing the basics of defending, which we did not do for at least the first 3 goals and that is the concern. As for Migs, he is crap. FACT. Knowing that fact, Klopp is prolly acting on it by putting Karius into the CL and hopefully, he can make the shirt his own.
12 Sep 2017 12:55:06
I knew this was going to be unpopular. Ed1 the crux of our disagreement is whether we should try Karius because we already know Migs is bad. My view is we don't do it because we have to do as best as we can now if we want to win the league this year. Migs isn't great but if he's better than Karius then he should play.
Bingo, I reject your premise that Migs was at fault (note that is not the same as saying he couldn't do any better) for any of the goals on Saturday, I think it's nonsense. I also believe your assessment of Karius and Ward is based on a desire for them to be better than rather than any evidence that this is the case.
MK, I think your explanation for the second goal being Migs' fault is too convoluted to be taken seriously and like Bingo, I think you're bias is showing if you think a different keeper would have done better for the first, third and fifth. What I don't disagree with is that a better Keeper is needed, I just don't expect Karius or Ward to be that keeper.
{Ed001's Note - if the staff thought he was better than Karius, then Karius would not have been bought.}
12 Sep 2017 13:07:52
I think people are calling for ward simply because he is a different option from mignolet or karius and not on merit. I think the lad deserves a chance but I wouldn't want us to hang all our hopes on the Wales no.2.
Karius is meant to be our no1 and I really hope we give up this constant keeper rotation and give him the rest of the season. If he is no good then sell both migs and karius and try something new. Mk is right (again) you cznt judge on a handful of games.
12 Sep 2017 13:09:35
You both keep says Migs is crap yet your manager keeps picking him time and time again and then you are against those who points finger at the manager. You can't have it both ways! Either you concede Klopp is wrong picking Migs or Migs is actually a good keeper and you are wrong!
{Ed001's Note - I have no problem picking fault with Klopp when he is wrong. I have said from the start that he was wrong to bring back Migs, it was a terrible decision.}
12 Sep 2017 13:11:31
Ed1, To answer a few of your specific points, I apologize for my imprecise language I happily admit that you said you'd bring in Karius not that you think he's better. I'm not saying I think Migs is better than Ward, I'm saying Klopp thinks that and I'm bowing to his assessment in this matter. The anecdote about Karius' price was not what I base my opinion of him on, I base that off of watching him play. However, I disagree with you that the price is not important, £5m is very cheap for a first choice keeper with supposed potential from any bundesliga club, especially if the buyer is from the premier league. Finally my assessment of the goals, my argument wasn't (nor ever has been) that Migs is good enough for us. My argument is that criticism of him for conceding those goals is unwarranted. Criticism of his all round play is a different matter.
{Ed001's Note - ok, I see what you are saying, but Klopp would not have held Ward back if he thought Migs was the better option, he would not have bought Karius in the first place if he believed Migs was the better option. So why would you bow to his judgement if he was wrong to buy Karius and hold back Ward in that case? He has made a mess of this particular situation from the start and it is not going to get better by sticking by a keeper who is letting us down repeatedly, even if the alternative turn out to be no better. Give them a chance to prove one way or the other if they are better.
As for Karius' price, it is truly irrelevant. The price was what it was because he wanted the move and they are a small club who believe that bringing in cheap selling on at a profit if the move is also good for the player allows them to recruit a better calibre of player than they otherwise could. Clearly it does, as they have got to where they are by doing so.}
12 Sep 2017 13:37:49
Ed, I will happily agree that the situation is a mess. The biggest shame is that we haven't had a good enough keeper since Reina started angling for a move, five years is too long not to sort this problem.
{Ed001's Note - the recruitment team have not covered themselves in glory.}
12 Sep 2017 13:58:03
Harry do you even read my thoughts on Klopp? 😂 it was only yesterday i took pelters for saying he bottled it with his substitutions.
I'm not against criticising Klopp anymore. I was reluctant to do so last season because it was his first full season. No excuses now though. He is fully settled, this is his team, and he is still failing to deliver right now. That may change as the season goes on, but he needs to prove to us all why we should be believers, or their will start to be more and more doubters.
For me, Klopp wins a trophy this year or he needs to go. Even if it is the Carabao cup it will show some progress, but you can't be LFC manager for 3 seasons and win nothing. That got Rafa (2006-2009) and Rodgers (2012-2015) the sack. Start winning things or move on to make space for someone who will. If Klopp goes 2015-2018 without winning anything, why is he any different to those guys? Rafa had a Champions league final to Klopps two finals, and Rodgers nearly won the league. Nearly isn't good enough for us with them though. So it shouldn't be different with Klopp because he is passionate and has a likeable clown act, to quote the great Ed002. Hell Kenny actually won our last trophy, and he got canned anyway!
Klopp's persona is wearing thin on me and as much as i believe he will win us something this year, he has to go out and turn a prediction into reality before he can ask for more time. Fun fact; every player in the first team squad except Milner, Ings, Markovic and Bogdan has either been offered a new contract during Klopps reign, or been signed by Klopp. He clearly likes Milner and Ings and Markovic and Bogdan are barely worth considering. His squad. His responsibility.
12 Sep 2017 14:02:18
Now this is the Adam I actually like MK 😎 Or rather I miss on the site. Proper unbiased poster once he was. 😄. I though you too got turned on by bingo 😄.
12 Sep 2017 14:05:34
The fact that 4 years after signing migs we are still discussing his place in the team, is proof that he shouldn't be there.
Karius got 10 game and made a few mistakes and everyone included carra slaughtered the boy to the point klopp had to drop him to protect him.
Ward hasn't been given any games
Mignolet has had over 100. 100 game a and is still dog poo
It doesn't. matter wether karius is better but quite simply we owe him the opportunity to prove it either way. He was a started in the bud3sliga and only moved to us because klopp would of made promises. We are stunting his development. Get him in goal, get migs gone and if all still bad in Jan then get rid and but someone else.
12 Sep 2017 18:42:23
Sack Klopp if he doesn't win something this season? Really? What is the point in that? He has the team playing some exceptional football and got us back into the champion league. Unless there is someone who could do better than that then why bother?
What gives us the right to think we should be winning things? Do we have the best team? Squad? Most resources? No we don't? Is Klopp underachieving with this squad? No.
Spurs have a great manager who has been there longer than Klopp, yet has won nothing. are Spurs fans asking for him to be sacked?
Klopp is making mistakes, is not perfect but he is making progress and exciting us in the process. Your points may be valid at the end of season but they are a bit premature and I feel uneccesary at this point. How about we show him some support until he does stop progressing.
12 Sep 2017 18:47:36
Karius looked like a top keeper he's last season in bundesliga. He had bad luck with his injury and a bad start, but i find it very weird that he still hasn't taken the spot from Migs.
12 Sep 2017 18:49:05
Harry, what does "your manager" actually mean? Is he not your manager as well? We know you don't like Klopp BUT that "your manager" crap was out of order.
As for the GK issue, Klopp has indeed made a mess of the situation by hooking Karius cos he made TWO mistakes (not several as many say on here inaccurately) . He was signed to replace Migs who had and has been crap for 4 years here.
Klopp is prolly trying to fix the issue by using Karius in the CL as a way to phase out Migs. He does not trust Migs which is why Karius and Ward are still here, as Ed01 alluded to. That is good enough for me cos at least we know that he does not rate Migs and never really did. To me, now is the time to get rid of this crap GK and move on to seeing if Karius or Ward are the ons to go with moving forward. At least, we don't have to deal with him anymore.
12 Sep 2017 19:20:43
Putney, this has nothing to do with desire. It has a lot more to do with evidence and a desire to take a look at either of these GK's as they cannot be any worse than Migs, surely.
You ask me if I have evidence to know about Karius' qualities. I refer you the the League Cup semi final tie last season vs the Saints. In that game, we were awful across the board and Nathan Redmond (who scored the winning goal at 1-0) could have had a hatrick in that game. Do you know why he did not and we were still in the tie? Loris Karius.
Karius made 4 very good saves in that game including a point blank shot from Redmond in the 6 yard box. In the return game at Anfield, he kept us in the game while we chased it by coming out to smother a shot point blank by Tadic. He got no credit for his perf. cos well, we lost so who cares right? I cared cos I was actually checking him out to see how he would do.
His talent also showed in preseason vs LC where he came out to deny Vardy 2/ 3 times as the sweeper keeper. This is how I know he can be a good GK for us if he can get a good run of games and figure it out. Watch these games on Youtube and see for yourself.
Again I am not saying either Karius or Ward are the answers. I am just saying that they deserve to be given a full go as they cannot b e any worse than Migs and we know for a fact that Migs is crap so why persevere with crap? That's all I'm saying.