14 Sep 2017 00:11:48
When winning 2 league titles and getting to a champions league final, were Klopp's Dortmund side as rubbish defensively as we are?
14 Sep 2017 05:19:36
He had a point to prove back then. Now he has simply been put on a pedestal by us LFC fans and treated like some war hero who can do no wrong. The defensive issues have been completely ignored and Klopp refuses to alter his style in spite of himself claiming there are very few players that can fit into his ideologies.
He had Hummels and an in-form Subotic back then. At LFC, he thinks Matip, Klavan and Lovren are reincarnations of his BVB defenders. How wrong he is. BVB had a perfect blend of attack and defence, but Klopp seems to have lost his way since joining LFC.
{Ed001's Note - who made Hummels into the player he was? According to Hummels it was Klopp. Subotic credits Klopp for his form as well. I guess you missed that. If you are not going to do your research, then you are just going to continue to make idiotic comments from a biased viewpoint. It is clear you have a personal issue with Klopp and that you are against him.}
14 Sep 2017 05:27:38
Sometimes Mats Hummels was caught napping and made mistakes, but their whole team performance was not as bad as ours, so poor Lovren :)
14 Sep 2017 05:40:17
Ed,
Correct me if I'm wrong, again, but wasn't Hummels a failing (defensive) midfielder at one point before he was "turned into" a centre back?
Is there no player at LFC who could undergo this conversion and was it Klopp who "trained" Hummels in the ways of defending?
For the first question I'm wondering about the likes of Grujic, Ejaria or even Can. They're all big lumps but are clearly not defenders at the moment. Grujic is going to lose his work permit, Ejaria is not getting regular football and Can is worried about getting game time. Maybe Can is a bad choice as he might not want to play there. Converting from being a midfielder to being a defender must be difficult, how do you teach a player about "new" positioning and reading the game? Did Hummels just have it "in built" or did someone develop it in his game and can't we get them to do it at LFC?
I appreciate in Germany said convert would get more time and patience to bed into the role 😄.
{Ed001's Note - Ejaria is not a big lump mate. Can will almost certainly leave and wants to play in midfield. Grujic is not defensive minded at all. I don't really see anyone he can do that with. Yes it was Klopp who worked with Hummels, the lad gave about 40 interviews talking about it after Klopp first left.}
14 Sep 2017 05:42:21
No one puts Klopp on a pedestal, most of us know he is not perfect but we support him because he is our manager.
14 Sep 2017 05:47:24
Personal issue against Klopp? I was probably one of the most elated fan when we appointed him. Hell I wanted him over Ancelotti as well.
But that trust comes with the manager backing up the faith shown in him through team performances. If the players are not able to repeat their tactical drills on match day, why has Klopp not done anything about it? Its been 2 seasons now hasn't it?
Yes, he made Hummels and Subotic what they are today but clearly its blatantly obvious that was not going to happen with Klavan and Lovren. You cannot build each and every player to the expectations of a football club. If they are not good enough, get rid and sign better ones.
And the GK fiasco? Oh dear God is all I have to say and I am an atheist.
{Ed001's Note - for heaven's sake! It takes time to build a team when you do not have unlimited money to buy one like City do. 2 seasons is nothing. Modern day fans are so fickle.}
14 Sep 2017 05:54:27
At BVB he had world class players all over the pitch for a few years and during those few years he won everything possible. The moment he sold Lewandowski and Gotze his side started to crumble. There is no comparison between Hummel to Klavan, Lovren and Matip! Like every manager in the world he too need WC players!
{Ed001's Note - he made them world class.}
14 Sep 2017 06:09:09
Thanks Ed,
Ejaria always looks like a big lump to me, but I guess he's not big for a defender.
So Klopp helped develop Hummels (a midfielder) to convert into being a pretty solid classy defender who played for the world champions. My follow up question is how come he can't develop Lovren and Matip to the same degree? Is it the case that Hummels always had the ability/ attributes and Lovren/ Matip don't? Or is it just far more difficult/ different to be a central defender in England and would Hummels find it much more difficult?
Cheers.
{Ed001's Note - you are right in what you say, it is more difficult, but the main differences are age and willingness/ability to learn. Hummels was young and willing to learn with the ability to do so, Lovren and Matip just aren't. Hummels did have a lot of the basic attributes to succeed as well. However it is difficult to see the fans giving a player the time to learn here. You only have to look at the reaction to TAA's performance at the weekend. No one has any understanding for young players learning a role.
By the way, the big question should be why does our recruitment team not come up with suitable alternatives? I mean Leicester under Walsh had a deal set up for Kante when Ranieri arrived he put it on hold as he was not convinced. They went for alternatives, none could be got and Walsh kept working on Ranieri every time he saw him to convince him of Kante, leaving him footage of the lad playing, constantly talking about him etc until he convinced Ranieri. Twentyman used to do a similar thing when he was our scout, he would sell the players to the manager, until they were convinced to move for them. Why do we have no one doing that at the club now? If they do not trust their judgement enough to put their job on the line by putting players forward, then they should not be in the role!}
14 Sep 2017 06:38:48
Cheers ed, I lost faith with our recruitment team years ago. We're good at recruiting attacking players - Mane, Salah, Firmino, Keita. Just not good at finding players with the abilities needed to defend in the premier league. Did Van Dijk improve that much since his Celtic days?
{Ed001's Note - personally I do not rate him at all, he has that Matip lazy streak which annoys me. Amazing how players like that can bring the ball out from the back with the pace of a scalded cat but chase back with the pace of a sleeping tortoise.}
14 Sep 2017 07:04:46
Gomez is that player Ed - think he could be moulded into something special. We should really leave RB to Milner and TAA and put Gomez and Matip together for an extended period. Leave Lovren and Klavan to play vs slower attacks or in cup games (lovrens also always looked better at RB IMO) .
The other issue is also GK and FBs, we need a more defensive minded LB and to stick with on keeper (should be Karius) .
I do think if Klopps got anything wrong he's not making any concession for the teams weaknesses. Don't know why. perhaps he figures get the team playing the way he wants the slot this missing pieces in defence in later. but I wish he'd play Robertson at LB and tell him to play a more cautious game, then play more of a 4-2-1-3 and two deep midfielders to protect the back 4, then play Gomez at RB. I'm pretty sure we'd still create loads of goals with our front 3 and Coutinho in behind them.
Yes I know Robertson is essentially an attacking LB too, but fundamentally he looks more balanced than Moreno.
{Ed001's Note - we can't have Milner at full back, he was awful at the end of last season because teams worked him out. He and Clyne were the players teams were targeting. Which says a lot when we had Matip and Lovren at the back....}
14 Sep 2017 07:05:34
Ejaria, Can and Grujic are all attack minded players, and not particularly very intelligent off the ball. Grujic tends to slack off when the opposition has the ball and Ejaria is just not ready. Can is as good as gone. I think he wants regular game time as a B2B midfielder and Klopp won't give him that. Gomez is our best bet at the moment till some decent CBs are targeted by Klopp. Jose Gimenez and De Vrij (a bit weak physically) are out of contract in the summer. Manolas is another CB with a mean streak and would do well in Klopp's system.
Not sure why VVD at 60 million is such an attractive prospect for Klopp. He is just like Matip but more of a physical specimen. That's what worries me about Klopp. He seems to be targeting these players good on the ball but not very good in their defensive duties. VVD falls into that bracket.
14 Sep 2017 08:02:37
Harry, what world class players did Klopp have at BVB? You mean the ones he himself create? Nonsense. If you don't know anything about Klopp's BVB, then go do your research cos I have. Years ago, Hummels was at the Bayern academy BUT could not break into the first team with Lucio and the rest at CB. He went to BVB on loan and when Bayern wanted him back, he told them to get lost and that he would not come back as he loved it at BVB. Hummels owes everything to Klop. Same with Subotic who he had at Mainz before he went to BVB with him. Lewandowski was signed for 4m from Polish football and he had to wait his turn as Lucas Barrios was the starter. After Barrios left, he became the starter and the rest is history. He too, owes his world class status to Klopp. He created Lewandowski, Gotze, Kagawa (who he got from the Japanese SECOND division) Reus (who he sold but signed back) Kuba, Bender, Perisic, Scmelzer and the rest.
IB, no one is putting Klopp on any pedestal so that is nonsense. He is our manager and tho imperfect and fallible, I will not trade him for anyone. The team is not the finished article yet as he wants to change the CB's and make the team stronger. You can't do that in one window. The problem may be that the scouting dept. is not doing it's job, as Ed said. We have to stick with what we have cos we will not be dropping 300m on CB's and defenders anytime soon.
14 Sep 2017 07:48:38
@IB
Coz VVD wins headers something our entire team doesn't! VVD is a physical monster against one on one opponents. VVD has excellent pace to track back and play up front of the defense. VVD is one of the best ball playing defender in the league. VVD is technically head and shoulders ahead of what we have! VVD will deal with all the first time ball that's thrown at our defense!
{Ed025's Note - im with you on that harry, hes excellent for me and would improve liverpool massively mate..
14 Sep 2017 07:55:25
Jose Jimenez is suspect in the air and doesn't speak a word of English.
14 Sep 2017 08:28:40
I have kind of had enough of the constant mistakes from both CBS if it was me Ed I would put Gomez at CB with Matip and have TAA, Flanno Rotate for RB, Moreno and Roberston for LB its worth a punt we need to see how Gomez performs and then get behind them its not working with Lovren and Matip, at least with Gomez he has the youth on his side like Hummels to learn from his mistakes what do you think Ed01? I would even but Masterson in even tho he is 18 he looks a good player.
{Ed001's Note - I was saying before the season started I would go with Gomez, nothing I have seen has changed that opinion.}
14 Sep 2017 09:11:22
Couple of months back there was a report of klopp in echo what BVB fans think about him. You can easily find if you want.
You'll be shocked to see a lot of BVB fans don't rate him despite winning trophies there.
{Ed001's Note - the same Dortmund fans that had a campaign to persuade him to stay you mean? The same Dortmund fans that never stopped singing his name even when his final season saw them off the pace? I doubt the Echo would have a bloody clue what Dortmund fans think to be honest. Since it became a part of the Mirror group it has been nothing but a rag.}
14 Sep 2017 12:27:23
Kopite, none of that crap is true about Klopp and BVB. He is revered over there as a god who gave them their dignity back after being the punch line of German football. Just take a look at the welcome he received when he went there. A majority of the fans would take him back tmrw if he ever wanted to come back. Don't believe anything you read about Klopp in the rag media, bro. It is bullocks. I propose you do your own research as many of us have done.
14 Sep 2017 16:50:39
"Amazing how players like that can bring the ball out from the back with the pace of a scalded cat but chase back with the pace of a sleeping tortoise"
This killed me ed1 xD but its true, I never understood why quite a lot of center half's are faster with the ball than without. Yet every other player is slower with the ball.
When Matip runs with the ball, every step he takes he covers about 10 yards (bit dramatic), but when tracking back to defend. Well he is never back far enough which is weird considering the only player who should be behind him is the GK, not half our team xD
The only other player I can think to compare his weird speed glitch too. is Kaka. Just a shame that’s where the comparison stops 😓.