18 Sep 2017 13:40:24
for all those who think we need a striker, can you name one who gives us what firmino does with better finishing abilty?
don't know any myself. i really belief if bobby works on his finishing, manage to bang in more goals, we'll see top clubs wanting him.
18 Sep 2017 13:51:04
Suárez, Costa, belotti, dybala, Agüero, griezmann, Messi, Kane.
18 Sep 2017 13:53:00
That exactly is the problem we are discussing here! He is brilliant but doesn't score enough. It is the way it is! He is my fav player as well. A good and healthy Danny Ings would be an excellent weapon in Klopp's system. He is an excellent poacher as well a brilliant presser. An old Daniel Sturridge would have benched Firmino!
Firmino might play in the midfield but he simply can't play on the flanks.
18 Sep 2017 13:57:36
Firmino made more tackles, more interceptions and created more chances, than any other striker in Europe last season.
The only player who could do what he does and score more is probably Suarez or Lewandowski. Are either realistic? No.
People don't seem capable of understanding that Firmino is not there to be our primary goal scorer. He is their to press, make I'm selfish runs, link up the play, and create space for Mane and Salah to score goals. He does that superbly well and still has 4 goals in 8 games. A 1 in 2 striker is hardly a striker not worth his salt.
He'll never win because there are unfortunately too many modern day fans who think the grass is always greener and are willing to throw their old toys out the pram when they see a shiny new striker scoring goals in a completely different set up.
It's a very sad mate. Probably the hardest worker in our squad takes pelters by people who simply don't understand what his role in the team is.
18 Sep 2017 13:57:45
Hi Harry you asked is my picture the old one? It is I'll do a new one with the kid's 2 year's on this evening mate.
18 Sep 2017 13:58:57
Aguero or Firmino up top? Let's not fool ourself. Love Bobby and wouldn't swap him for anyone! But Aguero all day of the week! The thing is we rely Firmino on everything except scoring goals 😄😄. If you have a KDB and Silva behind you could afford Aguero up top! We don't!
18 Sep 2017 14:09:34
Yet again Harry drooling over other team's players. You need to learn what side you're bread's buttered mate I don't come on here to listen to how great everyone else's players are. We have a really good side that can beat anyone on their day. We've had a tough week but give me our 11 over anyone else's every day of the week as they wear red and play at Anfield. I don't give toss about any other team or their players to be quite honest.
18 Sep 2017 14:12:09
No one questions Bobby's ability MK. He leads the line and like every other player who leads the line he is always judged on the no of goals he scores mate. If he was anyother player, there wouldn't be a discussion.
I get what you are saying. He does everything to succeed Klopp's high pressing fast movement system and we rely on him completely. But we also rely on him to score goals!
18 Sep 2017 14:16:12
agree with every point MK
vakpa just listed names of good strikers but would they suit our system or are they affordable? no.
18 Sep 2017 14:16:18
If you swapped firmino for aguero then liverpool would lose more than they gain imo. Firmino is a fantastic finisher, not sure if I've ever seen aguero score a goal like Bobby did against stoke last year. I reckon firminio could play as an out and out cf and score loads of tap ins, maybe not. But we know for sure 100% that aguero couldn't create like bf.
18 Sep 2017 14:19:13
Blinding post mk.
18 Sep 2017 14:29:55
I think it's a little bit horses for courses. Firmino is deadly against better sides with Mane and Salah around him. Look how many chances he creates with space around him and pace to exploit it.
The problem comes against sides like Burnley - they don't give away many chances and you need someone who's going to put away every one, and it's also helpful to have someone who's going to be a target to hit from out wide. Firmino still has the possibility to unlock these sides with his close control and one-twos but he's not a Costa, Ibrahimovic, Lukaka etc. that if you stick them 6 yards out and ping in enough balls they're sure to score. That's where Solanke comes in.
18 Sep 2017 14:30:40
But if you take bobby out and put in Kane for example then mane and salah don't get as many goals it's counter productive and I don't think it would up our total goal tally at the end of the season. He drops wins balls back, plays beautiful one twos, drags defenders about and creates space for the two speedsters. They are really our forwards In this formation. Yes it would be nice if he finished more of his chances but he creates so many for the rest of the team. If he was as good a finisher as Kane he'd be one of the best players in the world and he probably wouldn't be playing for us unfortunately. He's been our best player this season for me but for that penalty miss.
18 Sep 2017 14:35:00
Harry we don't rely on him to score. Last season he scored 12 and assisted 11 in about 40 appearances. This season after 8 games he has scored 4 and assisted 3. If he carries on in his current form he will score 20 goals this season anyway.
My point is, he puts just as many goals on a plate for his team mates as he scores.
Salah has 5 goals already, Mane has 3 goals. How do you figure that we rely on Firmino? By contrast, Spurs do actually rely on Kane, Chelsea rely on Morata, Arsenal already rely on Samchez again, and Utd will come to rely on Lukaku when Rashford has a dip in form like all young players do.
We have goals all over the front line. The only teams in Europe with a better forward line than us are PSG, Real Madrid, Man City and Barcelona. They've all spent a small fortune to assemble them though. Our frontline cost about £100m combined across 3 transfer windows. That's 1 Ronaldo, half a Neymar, 1 Dembele, or Sterling and Sane who reside on Citys bench!
I really don't understand where this has come from.
We need to fix our defence and suddenly out of nowhere, everyone is pining for a new striker because our current front 3 only has a meagre 12 goals between them 5 weeks into the season. My god you people must've been spoilt as children.
Everton have 2 league goals this season and they play with an out and out striker. Spurs, Arsenal and Chelsea all drew 0-0 and also play with out and out strikers.
We have scored in every game this season except the one we played an hour with 10 men in. Technically, you only need to score 1 goal to win so scoring is clearly not our problem. 1 unlucky game doesn't sudden nly make this our number 1 priority.
18 Sep 2017 14:44:25
I agree redwillis. Nicely put mate, our system requires the boys to interchange their positions. The wingers become the forwards, the midfielders go out wide and firmino drops back. Any team would benefit from an aguero or kane as they would too from firminio. But I don't see how kane would fit into our style atm.
18 Sep 2017 14:59:47
SGRed You hit the nail on the head!
Bingo!
Jackpot!
18 Sep 2017 14:59:53
I completely get that that we don't rely on Firmino for goals but that doesn't mean I'm convinced he's the best option for us. My issue is that to be successful you have to balance attack with defence. Our attack, not last season or so far this season, has been good enough to make up for our defense. We have to either concede less (which is something we're struggling with) or score more. I think there's a decent possibility that we would score more with an out and out #9 in the team.
18 Sep 2017 15:11:48
If liverpool weren't creating the chances I'd be worried but we are and I'm not. We have a top top goal scorer and he rarely gets a game (Dan s) it's because he doesn't really fit with our style. When we convert to 442 ds is much better and it's great to have that option. People say ds isn't the same but I disagree, he scored at arsenal right? And was England's top scorer last year (I think) we can't have it both ways unless we sign messi.
18 Sep 2017 15:19:13
If you think Firmino is being relied upon to score goals then clearly, you have been watching him with your eyes closed or cover your ears each time Klopp talks him up.
MK, I don't know where this pathetic "we need a striker" non-issue came from, myself. If we were not scoring goals enough and Klopp persisted with this system, I would understand. By all accounts and stats, that is not an issue BUT for some reason cos we fluffed our lines and made poor decisions in the final third, it is now becoming an issue where as it never came up when we thumped Hoff and Arsenal by an EIGHT goal margin. Also, you need to do a course on how our front 3 actually play and how Firmino is perfect for it BUT you will be stealing a living as it is very easy to grasp by simply opening your eyes and watching us play.
Putney, that is the challenge of every manager, IMO. Look at City. Pep has pretty much given up on defending as he kept getting plastered last season and has decided to just overwehlm the opposition with so much attacking talent that they would not be able to cope. He did the same at Barcelona as well. Do I want Klopp to do that? No. I think he is still trying to find that happy medium and that is where the issue is.
18 Sep 2017 15:23:53
Couldn't Firminho play just behind an out and out striker, still pressure from the front, still set up scoring chances for Salah and Mane but not also assists for a striker?
18 Sep 2017 15:28:21
Brilliant post ings! Cannot believe people have thumbs downed it?
Where does aguero fit into our system? He doesn't.
18 Sep 2017 15:56:23
So Sturridge scored "at Arsenal" and you 'think he was England's top scorer last season? ' Wow! I'm converted, he's world class. Lol!
Stop now please.
He can't get a game because he's not good enough right now.
Solanke came on against Sevilla over him. He plays in the England u20 team. That should tell you all you need to know on DS currently.
His goal vs Arsenal was on a plate, amazing ball from Salah. Did he score vs Burnley? Solanke was on for only a few minutes and hit the bar. More importantly though, he got into a goalscoring position which Sturridge didn't look like doing.
Look, I'd love if he proved me wrong but he's not much of an asset right now.
18 Sep 2017 15:59:15
"Love Bobby and wouldn't swap him for anyone! But Aguero all day of the week! "
So, apart from Aguero, then :)
18 Sep 2017 16:30:43
I think Son Min Heung came to BPL from bundesliga same time as Firmino. Look how much more effective Son is. He cost 22mil and Firmino 29mil.
18 Sep 2017 16:32:15
When Firmino wins the ball back for us on the edge of their area, and we score a goal, that is something you just cannot put into statistics; even the really simple ones like how many goals people score.
You have to watch Liverpool to see how vital he is to our play, and if you still can't see how good he is, or how important he is, then there is no point in discussing this with you because, as much as i hate people who present opinion as fact, you are simply wrong and don't understand his role. He is not our primary goal threat and he is not supposed to be.
He isn't an attacking midfielder, but he is simply unplayable at times in the role Klopp has him in. It isn't even a conventional false 9. He just drifts everywhere and if you actually count how many touches he has in most of our goals, you'd be surprised.
Unless you can find me a Suarez who doesn't bite people, or a more skilful Lewandowski, I'm not swapping Firmino for anyone. Klopp has pretty much built the way we play around Firmino and it is brutally effective most of the time. If Mane, Sturridge, Salah and co are wasting too many chances, then you should be blaming them, not the guy integral to a lot of those chances being created.
We are 8 games in lads and we have already scored 17 goals. Considering how bad some of you think we are playing i dread to think how many goals you want us to score before it is deemed acceptable. Last season we did struggle occasionally to score, and Klopp has recognised that and signed Salah. Another wide forward capable of hitting double figures.
When Mane is back and Salah has a bit more confidence to put away more of the chances he is getting, we'll be an absolute force offensively. Klopp does need to make hid subs earlier at times, but again, that is not a stick to be used to beat Firmino.
18 Sep 2017 16:44:09
Yeah Son looked great in their 1-1 draw with Burnley, their 2-1 defeat to Chelsea and their 0-0 draw with Swansea.
You are literally my point personified. Grass is always greener. Absolute tool.
18 Sep 2017 17:00:38
MK, what poster are you talking to?
If it's me, I'm not knocking Firmino and I'm beginning to think you're on a wind up if you still think so. I have personally explained countless times that i like him but not as a main Striker or a False 9 even. It shows little ambition in my eyes to play that system in every game in the PL for the entire season. It also shows stubbornness and lack of knowledge.
You've contradicted yourself again in your last post too mate, sorry but you're losing yourself in your own posts within a line or two. This is not to humiliate or embarrass you but read this from your last post: "as much as i hate people who present opinion as fact, you are simply wrong and don't understand his role. He is not our primary goal threat and he is not supposed to be.
He isn't an attacking midfielder, but he is simply unplayable at times in the role Klopp has him in. " You say you hate someone presenting opinion as fact then carry on immediately to present your own opinion as fact telling whoever you were talking to that they are wrong (Your way or the highway) . You're losing me now because you're contradicting yourself so I don't want to read/ waste further time on your opinions on this subject further unless you can minimise them. They're (your posts/ replies) turning into (your) opinions that you're presenting as factual according to your gospel, not everyone's. I can debate with you but it's not worth reading paragraph afte paragraph of it's contradictory. No offense mate! I promise you I'm not trying to be a prat. If I've come off as one, genuinely I'll apologise now.
18 Sep 2017 17:30:46
MK what other TOP TEAM has a striker that isn't their main goal threat? I'm sure that there's some but I think you'll find they are few and far between for a reason.
Your main striker should be always your main goal threat. And in top teams in England and abroad they generally get you 20+ goals a season. Just think about it.
18 Sep 2017 17:33:50
Why does it have to be Firminho or a 20 a season finisher, why not both.
18 Sep 2017 17:59:29
Real Madrid. Main striker Benzema. Is he a bigger threat than Ronaldo?
Barcelona. Main striker Suarez. Is he a bigger threat than Messi?
Athletico Madrid. Main striker Torres. Is he a bigger threat than Griezmann?
Arsenal. Main striker Giroud. Is he a bigger threat than Sanchez?
Wales national. Main striker Robson Kanu. Is he a bigger threat than Bale?
I'll stop because I've already blown your non-argument apart.
In fact, the 3 best teams in Europe (the 3 top teams from Spain) all have a bigger goal threat than their main central striker. Even PSG you could now argue that Neymar and Mbappe are bigger goal threats than Cavani; their main striker. Deary me. Some people make stuff up.
18 Sep 2017 18:01:40
Kev, it is pretty much a fact that Firmino is vital to our play. He has been directly involved in 7 of our 17 goals this season. That is a fact, and if that doesn't make him vital, what does?
18 Sep 2017 18:06:36
Relax, Son is not a patch on Firmino, end of story. N
Natural, Klopp does not see Firmino as his main striker. He is seen as part of a front three of strikers as their positions are interchangeable and all are expected to offer goals and assists and be unselfish and work with and for each other. This is quite a simple system to grasp BUT for some reason, people keep harping on it as if they just found out that we play this way whereas we ave been playing this way since last season. Baffling, really.
18 Sep 2017 18:08:10
Exactly Details Locked!
18 Sep 2017 18:08:56
The natural - couldn't agree more mate!
18 Sep 2017 18:14:18
Kev ds goal against arsenal was a lot harder than it looked. Who was the player that foresaw the ball would go to the far post? Ds on his day IS world class. He goes missing in a lot of games though and I think he lacks physicality. He has scored some Wc goals though. If he was past it then he would have been sold in the summer. Goal against bayern was class and that was only a matter of weeks ago. I doubt he has lost it since then.
Also, you say his goal against arsenal was on a plate? Or a tap in right? But isn't it aguero, the tap in king, that you are calling for?
18 Sep 2017 18:37:13
Sturridge is not current. Oh my god you're positive points for him are full of negatives. Would you say those negatives about Messi, Ronaldo, Suarez?
I'm not saying Sturridge is a bad player but he is not world class. Look at Lukaku, he's scoring for fun the last couple of years. I don't count him as world class. You have a weird opinion of world class it seems. Robbie Keane scored 67 or 68 goals or so for his country. Was he world class? He plays well maybe 3 games a season when fit. You think that is world class? We have had world class strikers play for us for years, Sturridge is not in their league. He had ONE and a half good seasons. That's it. He's won zero with us. World class? Pull the other one.
18 Sep 2017 18:48:30
How many has he scored MK?
How many does he not score by standing outside the box or making space or the other things he does?
He's our main striker you said but he's not our main scorer, fair enough, is Messi in our team? Is Greizmann, Ronaldo?
No, in some games we'll have Chamberlain, Woodburn, Solanke off the bench, Sturridge who hasn't scored regularly for years playing near him.
Who will score the goals then?
Do you expect them to?
Now compare to the world's best Strikers.
He's not as good as them.
If you even try to tell me he's world class, then I'm out.
Gabriel Jesus isn't world class yet and he gets into Brazil's team ahead of Firmino on merit.
He's more of a danger.
How many have each scored this season?
I genuinely don't know.
But Gabriel Jesus is not on his own upfront in many games, sometimes he's benched for Aguero. But guess what, they score more than us. They beat us well 10 men or 11. Their first goal cut us open. If Firmino was upfront for them he'd never have gotten onto that pass, playing off the last defender. We're badly missing that.
19 Sep 2017 07:49:48
Olrish how do we miss "someone playing off the last defender" that's what mane and salah both do every game. They run into the space between fullback and cb. The space more often than not that is created by Firmino either winning the ball back early before the defence are in position or by dropping back and giving the cb something to follow this leaving the space for mane and salah to burst into. He also picks a wonderful pass. You're comparing us to Man City. One of the most expensively assembled squads of all time. But who of their wide forwards would get more goals than mane or salah? We play a different way and until that sending off have always matched them well. the problem we have is not a goal scorer. It's discipline and organisation in the midfield and communication in the back line. A keeper that doesn't fill the team with nerves and a cb that clears his lines properly and doesn't make so many unforced errors. Our goal threat is top quality.