Liverpool banter 216512

 

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18 Sep 2017 18:07:53
Ed001, I'm keen to hear your views an the raging striker debate.

Do you think Firmino needs replacing with an out and out number 9? And would it benefit us or hinder us in your opinion?

My short conclusion is that he is fine for most games, and Solanke should be given half an hour to break down the deeper defences if we're struggling. I don't agree with constant rotation though. Surely you perfect plan A instead of having second rate plan B, C, D etc.

Is Firmino a weak link in your opinion? Value your opinion as always mate.

{Ed001's Note - I feel the argument is nonsense. If you put someone else in there, ie a goal poacher, it is almost 100% certain that it would lead to us creating less chances and so would not score any more. If we play an out and out striker then there is no space for Mane and Salah to attack, so they would certainly not be able to make their runs in behind that they currently are. I just don't get why people are so obsessed with changing the attack when it is creating chances and scoring goals. The issue is the defence, not the attack.}

Agree0 Disagree4

18 Sep 2017 18:23:40
Bravo Ed001 👏.

18 Sep 2017 18:23:42
Hallelujah ed01. Nice response man.

{Ed001's Note - there is little point, some people just want change for change's sake and they will never listen to sense as they have got it set in their mind that change is needed. It doesn't matter how we set up, there will always be games where the team will miss chance after chance.}

18 Sep 2017 18:29:59
You're right of course ed. If we made those changes to the attack, they would be calling for change the moment we didn't win. Let's not forget, no one ever wins every game. Even if you have messi suarez and iniesta in your team.

18 Sep 2017 18:32:35
Criticising the defence is fair but criticising the an attacking team that boasts firminio sturridge solanke AOC coutinio and lallana is crazy. Oh and woodburn salah and mane.

18 Sep 2017 18:40:39
Cheers Ed. 100% agree and value your opinion as always. I know you guys get a lot of abuse for daring to have an opinion 😂 i personally consider Mane and Salah as effectively being forwards this season with how high up they are. They are beyond Firmino. In fact Salah is the guy usually left up top on their last man!

As you say, people get bored, start over thinking things and wanting change! I cannot fathom us touching our attack whilst the defence is so poor!

{Ed001's Note - they are forwards, without a shadow of a doubt.}

18 Sep 2017 18:44:27
If Firmino hits the "magic" 20, very possible for him, btw, I wonder will some people's heads explode?

The first thing they'll do is deduct penalties anyway, even though they wouldn't for anyone else.

18 Sep 2017 18:55:27
Could not agree more Ed001, can we have the suggestions of who Klopp should have signed 'this 20 goals a season striker' which would have in return seen Salah and Mane not finding themselves one one one with GK's.

So let's drop Firmino and hope that Klopp can sign someone who will guarantee 20 plus goals up top plus collect the ball from deep, start attacks, press and create the space Mane and Salah need to find themselves one on one with the GK?

I do not think many of the fans calling for an out and out striker actually understand how Klopp sets our attack up. One needs to use their eyes during matches, it really cannot be that difficult.

18 Sep 2017 18:58:57
I dunno, stick Ian Rush in his prime upfront and we'd soon forget about Bobby ed.

{Ed001's Note - there is no one like Ian Rush about and what would Rush have been without Dalglish to provide the service? His time at Juve suggests he would struggle badly. Firmino is the one providing the service and Salah and Mane are the finishers now. What is the issue?}

18 Sep 2017 19:24:51
Rush still scored when Kenny retired. Also, you can say that about nearly any striker. Aguero kdb, kane Ali, Torres Gerrard, vardy mahrez, you need to be in the right place at the right ime. Lineker gazza is another good example.

18 Sep 2017 20:35:52
For me this isn't a question of whether we need to replace Firmino, this is a theoretical discussion about how we could improve our attack. Clearly it could be improved, too often we struggle to break down determined defences. Would a different striker be better than Firmino in these situations? Quite possibly. Having Salah and Mane stretching a determined defence to create space for a Van Nistleroy type striker may work better than our current set up. Not saying we should do it, just having a discussion about an idea.

18 Sep 2017 20:43:45
This just goes on and on.
Cherry picking points made by numerous posters is utterly boring now after it has now happened for the umpteenth time and wins no debates especially if you're going to try to pull rank lol.
There's no possible debate left here because people ask the moderator for their opinion to save face when the numbers turn on them knowing their likely answer from previous conversations and then it's "thanks ed" "You're right ed".
No disrespect to anyone, this is happening daily.
A poster might have completely differing views to a moderator but as soon as they're scolded, their opinion does a 180 degree u turn around.
I genuinely respect MK and you've made some valid points fella, that is clear, but Ian Rush would outscore Firmino and Mane put together so is simply a superior goalscorer and nobody could question that.
He'd not nèed half as many chances either.
Goals win games, not systems/ tactics.
Players score goals not systems/ tactics.
If it take Firmino/ Salah/ Mane 60 games this season to score 40 goals between them, that'd pretty much be what it'd likely take a Rush of this era (Lewandowski for example) .
How is that a better stat man for man?
A Rush/ Lewandowski is more efficient in front of goal.
There's no making changes for the sake of it with me.
There's also no overall best way for me with systems etc.
It's horses for courses.
Burnley at home calls for us to be more offensive.
Arsenal at home calls for a slightly less offensive option.
If something doesn't work over and over again, that's when you change it or else you're risking looking like an absolute stubborn idiot.
If looking for penetration, why would you persist in hitting a hammer with a nail on a plank of wood when you can try hitting a nail with a hammer.
It's literally insane to continue failing when you have the other option.
Nobody should receive abuse on here.
We're all adults, or maybe not, I don't know.
No doubt some immature know all will abuse me now but whatever, I'm over it and I'm over this "debate".
Let's stick to a False 9 that fails to beat poor teams regularly. (3 out of 4 games so far this season) .
Leicester away should be two wins with a False 9 cause they'll come at us, but we'll probably play an out and out Striker lol.
Good night!

18 Sep 2017 20:46:13
I thought we could do with an Ariel threat to bring on in games against deep defences. Perhaps solanke is that guy. Thing is, if you want the midfield to protect the defence then you really need a cf who can supply the wingers.

18 Sep 2017 20:53:32
How do Suarez, neymar and Messi manage or how did they

Salah firmino mane
Werner

Boom.

18 Sep 2017 21:05:42
This is getting ridiculous. We have the third highest scoring team atm. Our attack is fine. More than fine it's excellent. And we haven't even been in top gear much yet. The third highest scoring team. You would have to say "well done klopp" on that point.

18 Sep 2017 21:08:27
Or Attacking Midfielders to provide the striker.
Firmino and Coutinho to Lewandowski = goal nearly every time.
Wingers (Mane and Salah) to Lewandowski = goal nearly every time too.
Lewandowski gets 30 goals a season.
Mane and Salah 15 each.
Coutinho and Firmino 10 each = 80 goals.
Firmino/ Mane/ Salah get 18 each in a False 9 attack (over estimation) .
Coutinho gets 12 - 15 from central midfield = 66 - 69.
Which looks better?
Who makes up the other 11 to 14?

18 Sep 2017 21:31:46
That is ridiculous Olrish, you can't make up stats to support your argument and the point to it as proof.

18 Sep 2017 21:34:28
Mane and Salah will get more than 15 each. Salah is a 3rd of the way to that total already and we're 5 weeks in to a 40 week season. Mane has 3 as well.

In fact last season Mane scored roughly your estimated 15 pretty much before January where he went to the AFCON and then got injured as soon as he got back. I will put my head on the block and say they both score closer to 25 each in all competitions baring injury. Firmino also has 4 in 8 games. I can easily see him making 20.

Anyway OIrish, i have no issue with you mate and i wasn't point scoring. I just wanted to know Ed001's opinion on the matter because he is a wise old man with 165 years of football knowledge at his disposal. We'll score plenty this season. I'd say your estimation that Firmino and Coutinho score 10 from midfield is a bit lofty though. Last time he played midfield a whole season Coutinho got 5 and that was in a team that nearly won the league. They got approximately 10 each last season playing in the front 3. Plus you'd never fit Salah, Mane, Firmino, Coutinho and a striker in the same team. You'd need a player twice as good as Kante behind that or you'd get shafted. That is pretty much 4 forwards and a No.10. So they wouldn't score that many because at least one of them would be a bench warmer.

Anyway, i said earlier I'd agree to disagree and i have. You won't convince me I need a striker and i won't convince you we don't. So let's move on.

18 Sep 2017 22:02:18
So I'm struggling abit.

But do MANE and salah become slow, poor scoring wingers if you put lewondowski up front and firmino as the ten?

Just not quite understanding why they couldn't hit high numbers with a 20 goal striker up top and 10 goal firmino in the ten slot.

Explain anyone?

18 Sep 2017 22:18:35
Tbf i actually like how the goals are distributed amongst the front 3, Firmino as well as Salah and Mane could all net 20 plus this season. We don't just rely on one goal scorer, we have a bunch of players who can put them in.

It's defensively where we struggle a lot.

18 Sep 2017 22:24:14
I'd be quite happy if you're proven right MK, genuinely. Not even going to add a "but" to that.
We're all on the same team.
A lot of what I say comes from the love I have for the club mate.
I'm not even English as my profile name might hint at but I've loved LFC for 30 years, longer than most marriages.
You're clearly a true fan too so how can I not respect that and you?!
One thing I can guarantee you is that I'll never go personal on you if we debate on something.
I'm pretty sure you're of the same way.
Like I said in a previous post, if you took anything I said personally i apologise profusely.
I care about our club like no words can describe.
I care about the many friends I've made visiting Liverpool for matches.
I've never felt more at home when there, it's weird.
I like Klopp and regardless of what you may think, I want him to succeed.
I also love our 3 current first choice attackers but would just like a different option when it's not going right.
"Never" is not a word in my vocabulary lol.
You're a stubborn. nah only joking mate!
You've taken up half my day (hate Mondays anyway ha) lol and I can understand both sides for sure.
Onto the next debate: Who was better, Konchesky or Djimi Traore? 😂
Good night MK.
For the record by the way, Djimi 😂
Andy K, I can do and I will mate 😂.

18 Sep 2017 22:30:47
MK SCOUSER,
I think you will find in the summer we will have NABY KEITA for the attacking midfield position and I'm pretty sure KLOPP will be interested in TIMO WERNER, who will be an up grade on FIRMINO.

18 Sep 2017 23:04:36
The more i read the forum the more i think klopp was right Firminio is so underrated its silly, because as we can see here how many times its asked about him being dropped, if his own fans don't appreciate him how should others even though the three friends i go out and watch matches with (2 united fans and one spurs fan) would all take them to their club and would make good arguments for him to start.

18 Sep 2017 23:20:32
If we played 442 with mane and salah on the wings I think it would be a shame top business. It would take a massive part of their game away and that is scoring goals. Their main aim would become supplying the two forwards with crosses. It's an option we have though and that has to be a bonus. Maybe the two DS's up front.

18 sep 2017 23:29:39
thanks for the heads up mate. much appreciated. i don't know where i'd be without you wembley.

18 Sep 2017 23:30:42
No worries Kev. I appreciate you just want what you think is best for your team too. Like you say, we're on the same side at the end of the day.

19 Sep 2017 00:27:28
I don't think so though mate

I don't see Ronaldo, bale, neymar, Messi, ribbon, Lemar, Costa, hazard, sanchez, reus not scoring and just supplying the strikers.

Mane and salah would still hit about 10/ 15 each.

{Ed001's Note - that is just a nonsense argument. Nobody has even said that, quite the opposite, they are the goalscorers in those teams, like Mane and Salah are in ours. I could go on but this is pointless, some people just don't have the capability to see the full story and get fixated on stupid notions like a goalscorer solving all the issues of a team that scores lots of goals. So I am just going to give up on this pointless argument.}

19 Sep 2017 08:56:32
Ed but aubamayang gets 30, mbappe got 26, benzema 19, Suarez 24, Costa 20, Lew 30.

Alongside wingers getting 15/ 20.

It's nonsense to say we couldn't gave a 20 goal striker and a 2o goal winger.

{Ed001's Note - yes but you are missing the point, again. They are playing against only two teams a season that compete. The rest are uncompetitive and roll over 9 times out of 10. You get an equaliser against them, like we did against Burnley, and they fold, which just doesn't happen in English football. By the way, what wingers got 15/20 alongside Aubamayeng? Mbappe was playing as a winger with Falcao as the forward, so what relevance does he have? Oh and Lewandowski has nothing but issues with Bayern due to them wanting to only play him in certain games, which is another problem we have if we suddenly decide that we do this lunacy of altering a fully functioning attack instead of fixing the actual issues in the team.}

19 Sep 2017 09:37:32
Ed01, please don't break your head over this pathetic excuse of an argument cos trust me, it is not worth it. We are third in goals scored and were 4th in goals scored last season BUT suddenly cos our boys fluffed their lines this weekend, the false argument of "we need a striker" crap came up. A natural CF will stifle Mane and Salah as they are NOT wingers but strikers who attack the same spaces a CF would. So if a CF comes in, they will have nowhere to attack as he will take up their spaces. It is a quite simple system to grasp BUT clearly, there is none more blind than the one who refuses to see. I did not see it come up after we thumped Arsenal and the Hoff 10 - 2 overall. Did you, Ed01? Save your strength for more serious issues, my friend cos this argument makes and will never make sense.

19 Sep 2017 12:30:20
Sorry ed auba was a bad example.

No. mbappe didn't play as a winger though. He was up top with falcon and Silva and Lemar on the wings with baka and fabi/ mou in the middle.

But that isn't the point. Mane and salah are quality and will not just stop scoring goals because a striker actually finishes his chances.

You also don't have to create hopefully so. many outstanding chances with a real. goal scorer.

Also is coutinho not off next year.

Would it not be worth replacing him with firmino, having hendo and keita in the middle with Werner, salah and mane as the front three.

I don't want firmino out the team, that would be rediculous but do believe we need another 20 goals.

You seem quote happy where we are but we are already t points behind city and United.

City are player with 2 20 goal a season strikers and United are playing with 1 and have another available in Jan. And we have none. That's the difference.

{Ed001's Note - your last 3 paragraphs tell me this is a waste of my time and I am done. Fantasy football talk is not for me.}







 

 

 
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