1.) 05 Nov 2019
05 Nov 2019 11:23:20
Cheers Ed, hope your having a good day mate.

{Ed001's Note - cheers mate, you too. Getting nervous ahead of the game yet?}

2.) 05 Nov 2019
05 Nov 2019 12:27:23
Ah not at all ed mate, I’m fairly confident 😉.

{Ed001's Note - yes you are the confident half, but we all know Salah is your less confident half....}

3.) 05 Nov 2019
05 Nov 2019 12:35:40
Im half the man salah is, at double the price. How you doing ed mate? going to try be around a little more and hopefully post infuriatingly positive posts. Missed the site altogether.

{Ed001's Note - it has been much less confusing while you have been away. I was able to know who I was talking to some of the times. How is the writing going? Any new books on the horizon?}

4.) 05 Nov 2019
05 Nov 2019 13:01:14
My first book is going incredibly well in USA. A few big things have happened with it that I’m not allowed to talk about yet but when I can. I will? Look at me being a cryptic douche. Anyway, I’ve finished work on three massive projects, which are getting released over the next while so I finally have a chance to enjoy life again. Basically I’ve been grinding the last 3 or 4 months missing deadline after deadline but now it’s all done and dusted and out of my hands now. I’m even able to watch pool matches these days and mostly, I can post! Ps, I have so many podcasts to catch up on I can’t believe it. Brilliant stuff ed.

{Ed001's Note - congratulations mate, I am really really pleased for you! Cracking the USA huh? JK Rowling eat your heart out! Make sure you let us all know when the films are out....}

5.) 05 Nov 2019
05 Nov 2019 13:12:29
Well done aoe, sounds like you’re doing well mate, congratulations 👍.

6.) 05 Nov 2019
05 Nov 2019 13:16:38
Ah much appreciated ed. Hilariously enough, in Ireland nobody really cares about fantasy but the states devour it. If you have a kindle or kindle app or anything like that, would gladly send you on a few little gifts that could sit in your “to endure” pile for the next few years. Or if you wanted to email me your address. Now about this whole var thing. What the flying fuk?

{Ed001's Note - I suppose in Ireland you are so used to living with faeries, pixies, goblins and leprechauns, you don't really need to read about it? We even have a few that post on the site but I won't mention any names as Barryinlouth will get upset if I tell anyone his little secret.

Personally I like fantasy books, so I would love to read them. I am pretty sure you already have my email address mate? But I will get Ed33 to pass me yours and email you anyway.

As for VAR, it would take longer to get through than the shock lasts when you tell a GoT obsessive that the show was badly written. And each time a game is played the rant about VAR gets another chapter added! Maybe you should write about how they decided they only made 4 errors in the first set of fixtures, as that was pure fantasy.}

7.) 05 Nov 2019
05 Nov 2019 13:22:22
Much appreciated hopeful.

8.) 05 Nov 2019
05 Nov 2019 13:39:13
Haha well, me and Barry go way back. We first met at leprechaunic anonymous a few years back. It didn’t do much to ease our hatred for them, so we embraced the disgust and formed up our own elite leprechaun fighting force. I tell you, Barry can skin a leprechaun quicker than you can say “Where’d you hide your gold you little pri*k”. I reckon it’s living in Louth. Lots of pixie eating goblins up there to hone your skill on. I am in favour of var but it’s just added to my paranoia that corruption is at play. Also got getting cancelled before the last couple seasons is up there with matrix never getting a sequel or a trilogy.

{Ed001's Note - shhh you have to keep it quiet about Bazza, it is a secret. Though I think everyone has realised he has been away with the faeries for years!

Watching the way VAR is being handled, it is difficult to believe that corruption is not at play. The whole redrawing of lines until it shows an offside was a giveaway. The fact that in Spain they have told TV not to show live pictures of the decision after the footage did not match their VAR footage (and accused TV of doctoring their live footage) makes it difficult to trust what you see.

Did the Matrix get a sequel then? I am not sure, hated that film. Up there with everything Tarantino does as just overhyped dross.}

9.) 05 Nov 2019
05 Nov 2019 14:09:12
Haven’t all the top European leagues been involved with corruption at some form or another the last few years- all apart from the premier league? Maybe I’m mistaken. Tarantino dross? Have to disagree there, I personally think they are the epitome of cool while still maintaining entertainment. Not to mention how each movie he makes is a different genre while still remaining Tarantinoesque. Such a rarity with the rest of the crap out there but hey, each to their own.

{Ed001's Note - you mean the Prem is the only one who has not been proven surely?

As for Tarantino, all he does is copy other films. A 'homage' is just a copy by a posh name to make it seem acceptable. His dross is just like everything else, unoriginal crap, but with added swearing to make it 'cool'. Just not for me at all.}

10.) 05 Nov 2019
05 Nov 2019 14:18:18
Ed you forgot also in Ireland we have loads of gob persons along with the fairies and leprechaun, best of luck Salah oh sorry aoe on your latest venture.

11.) 05 Nov 2019
05 Nov 2019 14:35:02
Much appreciated deisered. Cursing is cool ed. You can’t deny that. On the var issue, is there any point to managers coming out and saying “sneaky things appear to be at play” and leave it at that? Amazing it took Kamara to come out and attack the Bobby decision before sky bothered to acknowledge it. What with the sexy var issue of red or yellow for the son tackle, ps I can’t wait until Harry renames himself “bobby’sarmpit”.

{Ed001's Note - I was always brought up being told that cursing was what people did when they lacked the intelligence to find another word to use. Which probably explains why I swear a lot....

As for the VAR, nothing that a manager says or does will do anything other than get him into trouble. They are certainly not going to accept their integrity being called into question, no matter how true it is.}

12.) 05 Nov 2019
05 Nov 2019 14:55:33
When there are multiple messages about Leprechauns surely you know it’s a quiet day in the office. Unusual given that we have a game tonight!

{Ed001's Note - hey leprechauns is an emotive issue!}

13.) 05 Nov 2019
05 Nov 2019 15:28:10
That’s why me and Barry didn’t accept your application to join our elite group g1dgo, we desire real leprechaun passion in our initiates. In the threads defense, I do have a habit of bringing down the quality of the posts. With var if Atkinson faces no reprimand for that readjusting debacle, I can only imagine things getting worse. Perhaps if they allowed a mic to be present between ref and the room of idiots we might get a better understanding what they’re up to. More technology!

14.) 05 Nov 2019
05 Nov 2019 17:00:57
{They are certainly not going to accept their integrity being called into question, no matter how true it is. }

=============================================
That was the attitude in Italy 15 or so years ago and it came down crashing on them and Italian football still have n't recovered . The FA and the PL in particular need to react to this conspiracy one way or another .
That aside . Regarding the offside; Atkinson have n't done anything wrong legally. He doesn't draw lines . he uses his pin point pen to poke at the screen on the attackers body, and he is allowed to poke as many times as he want . But he really messed the Son decision up . panic got into him . By the way I am not defending anyone . the English referees are incompetent, and not fit for the pace of the PL.

15.) 05 Nov 2019
05 Nov 2019 17:26:12
Ok ok 1st of all I'am quite comfortable with my Leprechaun skinning pastime it's been in the family since me da was a toad stool. Great to hear from you aoe it's been getting hard keeping Ed001 entertained there are only so many tricks that you can do with a feather duster.

{Ed001's Note - I am sure you have lots of tricks left Bazza.}

16.) 05 Nov 2019
05 Nov 2019 18:25:11
I'm just not as supple as I used to be Ed001 and it's taking me a lot longer to recover.

{Ed001's Note - all those years of turning tricks taking its toll on your tricks now mate.....}

17.) 05 Nov 2019
05 Nov 2019 18:55:57
Ed001, about VAR. From what I know, the line we see on TV is not drawn by the VAR (e. g. Martin Atkinson) but drawn by HawkEye software. I don’t know much about the software, but based on their other technology, I would assume it uses many more cameras than are available for broadcast - as sampling is king in data processing. Therefore, the line that is drawn is susceptible to looking strange based on the perspective of a single camera, which is why it is slightly presumptuous to jump in and say the line is wrong based on a single perspective (although it could still be) . As part of the calculation of the line, the software must identify Firmino’s ‘centre of gravity’, from what I understand, simply his position relative to the touchlines. Then, the further most point of the player is found, and a line drawn vertically down and a line drawn parallel to the touchlines from the centre of gravity. The intersect of these two shows you where the further most point of the player is on the grass. Then you do the same for the other player, and you can determine who is further forward, and whether the attacker is offside. When calculating Firmino’s centre of gravity, the software incorrectly identified Mings’ hand as Firmino’s foot, so the resulting centre of gravity was wrong. Then one of the VAR’s corrected this and correctly placed Firmino’s foot (just below Ming’s dingle on the broadcast footage) . This explains the ‘re-drawing’ of the line.
Therefore, the decision is correct based on their protocol, and there is not a conspiracy.
However, it seems obvious to me that their protocol is wrong. Firmino’s armpit is to the right of his feet, so the centre of gravity and subsequent line will be in a different position (different x-axis value) to the one they used from his feet. This will give a different intercept, so it’s possible that his armpit (ridiculous) was onside.

In short, the decision was correct based on the way they operate VAR, and there isn’t a conspiracy. However, it’s possibly the way they calculate the positions is wrong, and the decision was incorrect in reality.

{Ed001's Note - sorry but none of that is relevant. For one it is not that accurate that it can rule on matters of millimetres, which this was. Secondly an armpit has never scored a goal, so cannot be offside. The line was drawn in the wrong place. Then redrawn in the wrong place repeatedly. The point of Martin Atkinson there is to see that it is in the wrong place and also to notice that it is beyond the tolerances of the accuracy of the system and so unable to make a decision.}

18.) 05 Nov 2019
05 Nov 2019 19:25:12
Ed001, it is relevant when you accuse officials of corruption with moving the lines. It seemed to me like you were suggesting the referees moved the line after seeing the outcome.
I agree completely with you about the tolerances of the system needing to be taken into account - there should be a simple cut off where if the lines are within a certain distance the decision is simply chalked off as level.

{Ed001's Note - how else do you explain why the line is in the wrong place after all the adjustments? They were moving the line about, why did they put it in the wrong place? None of what you said alters the fact it was put, quite obviously, in the wrong place. All this centre of balance stuff does not change a damn thing in terms of the officials making the decision made it with a visibly wrong line in place.}

19.) 05 Nov 2019
05 Nov 2019 19:48:27
Aoe, I'm a devourer of fantasy fiction - swords n sorcery type stuff (just rereading the whole of the Terry Brooks world, in reading order at the mo! ) Please let me know the title of your book (s) and I'd love to download and read :)

20.) 05 Nov 2019
05 Nov 2019 20:25:35
I was young and desperate Ed you know the story.

21.) 05 Nov 2019
05 Nov 2019 21:08:34
Ed001, I explained this. The line is not in the wrong place so far as the rules are at this point in time. So far as I understand, they (the referees) were not moving the line, it was the software recalculating based upon the corrected position of Firmino’s feet - which is the wrong way to do it, but is the way they have decided to do it. And that is also why the line looks wrong, because it probably is wrong. But that does not mean it is necessarily evidence of corruption. It strikes me more as the kind of people that come up with the rules/ procedures lack any kind of scientific understanding.

{Ed001's Note - no, you are missing the point. The armpit cannot score a goal and so cannot be offside. The line was taken from his armpit. So they put the line in the wrong place. It doesn't matter if the software set it there, they do have an override, that is why they are there looking at, rather than just having the software call the decision as they do with the question of whether the ball crossed the line or not. Martin Atkinson could see that the line was in the wrong place and made the wrong call. It was Atkinson's call, the referee makes the final decision. All you have said basically is that the software is flawed, which we know, which is why the referee is there to make the call. And he made the wrong call according to the guidelines the PGMOL themselves put out after the first set of games when a number of goals were ruled out incorrectly due to close offside calls. They are not taking into consideration the large margin of error the system has.

I get what you are saying, but who tells the software where the foot is when it gets it wrong? Someone has to tell it and who decides when the ball was played? There are, I believe, 24 frames per second (iirc) and the decision cannot be from the software which frame to use, as you have already pointed out, it doesn't even know the difference between one man's foot and another man's hand. There is human input.

As for not being able to take one camera's perspective, you can also not trust the system's calibration, as it only takes one measurement to be out of place for it all to be wrong. Have they taken account of the difference depending on how the camera is turned to face the play? We know they haven't, because they can't, it is impossible to know exactly with current technology, which is why the system has such a large margin of error. The whole system has a large margin of error because nothing is exactly in line to make it easier.}

22.) 06 Nov 2019
05 Nov 2019 23:02:09
For what's its worth a line from the "armpit" is the best line to show where the torso ends and the arm starts .

23.) 06 Nov 2019
05 Nov 2019 23:34:07
No, they didn’t put the line in the wrong place, they have used the armpit before (the Sterling offside earlier in the season) . Therefore it is probably in the IFAB rules somewhere, I don’t see why they would override that.

Your second point was something I was also not sure about. It does seem strange to select his foot manually, as it would just render everything else irrelevant. In the replays of the incident, you see them moving the line to select Firmino’s foot (and the red line shift when the new position is calculated), and you’re right, it’s stupid as there’s a huge amount of randomness and error introduced. But the fundamental point is that the first line ruling Firmino onside was wrong, and they tried to correct it as best they could by aligning to his foot, which resulted in the change. So I think this is the big issue, the manual re-selection if the software gets it wrong.

The HawkEye system almost certainly has its own, fixed cameras to enable it to calculate the distances correctly. It would be impossible to calculate the distances without doing this. So the angle of the broadcast camera is irrelevant for the distances, but since it is what the referees used for the manual alignment it is an issue for that - they wouldn’t be able to accurately pick his foot out.

Sport broadcasts are at a higher frame rate, 50 frames per second I believe. Yes, 50 is not high enough, the spatial and temporal resolution is not high enough to make millimetre calls on distance, and millisecond calls on when a ball was passed. And that’s why if the distance comes out at e. g. 5 cm or less for example, then we just say level. That would be an improvement on the linesman at the moment, and consistent.

There are lots and lots of problems with VAR. I was only originally defending the moving of the line, which I don’t think was an obvious bit of corruption.