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31 Dec 2019 10:11:15
I like the concept of the VAR being used 'less forensically' for offside calls, but what do they want the officials to do, and how does working 'less forensically' work exactly? Supporters will be going nuts if it looks like it is offside but the VAR Ref doesn't rule it out because it's a close call. and 'less forensic will clearly be a very subjective topic.

One option would be to let VAR Ref measure for offsides as usual but to simply use a thick line of say 40cms width for each payer and if there is an overlap then it is considered too close to call and original decision stands, but no overlap = at least a 40cms wrong decision and therefore a 'clear and obvious error' and decision is overturned. That will allow the system to incorporate a margin for error without asking the VAR refs to be 'less forensic' which is extremely difficult to explain to supporters and far too open for subjectivity.

Agree4 Disagree0

31 Dec 2019 10:17:45
Why all the furor.

31 Dec 2019 10:20:14
VAR was agreed by the clubs and there is absolutely no doubt that it has improved the accuracy of refereeing decisions. There are always people who will hark back to "the good old.

{Ed025's Note - really RP you think it has improved?, its created chaos for me mate and should be suspended until they sort it out..

31 Dec 2019 10:22:00
The way I see it from what I've read is it's impossible to make a right call as the difference between 1 frame and the next can be 13 (If i remember) inches. Plus the error of the lines. Calling someones armpit offside by an inch isn't on in this case.

{Ed025's Note - dead right irish..

31 Dec 2019 10:23:43
The biggest problem I see is when the play goes on causing players to make bursting recovery runs where before the player would be flagged and play would stop. If I'm not mistaken if it doesn't end up a goal any resulting result corner or throw gives an advantage to the attacking team they shouldn't have got.

31 Dec 2019 10:28:05
VAR was agreed by the clubs and there's no doubt that it has increased the accuracy of refereeing decisions. There will always be those who yearn for "the good old days" but other sports have moved forward and integrated new technology. The argument that a player was "only millimetres " offside is ridiculous as the law is clear enough and a player is either offside or they are not. In tennis technology can determine if the ball is in or out by millimetres as it determine if somone is run out or stumped at cricket by millimetres or i.

{Ed001's Note - sorry but the argument is not ridiculous as no one can definitely by offside by that sort of margin. You are forgetting that tennis and cricket have a fixed point of reference for their decisions and so can be that exact. There is none of that in an offside decision, all of the parts are moving and so there is a huge margin of error in the calibration, which can be inches (or even more depending on external factors) in each decision. So to use it for such small margins is lunacy, as it could be completely and utterly wrong.}

31 Dec 2019 11:11:10
Wireless tech is ubiquitous now. Put pressure metres in the ball to show when it is kicked and sync it up with the video of player positions.

31 Dec 2019 11:14:01
I don't like var ed01 and rellow posters.

But, it is more correct than a referee. They need to let the fans see what they see in the monitor.

It favours the better team because they attack more. It it also stops journeyman cms trying to break keits' leg.

I didn't think the vcwc had var until the drop ball to their goalie.

31 Dec 2019 11:16:33
On offside calls go back to clear daylight between defender and attacker. Benefit of the doubt for me has to be with the attacking side. Wolves, like Bobby vs Villa and Sadio vs Watford, were robbed of a goal that should've stood.

31 Dec 2019 12:00:01
Spot on, Irishman. If it is TOO close then the attacking team gets the benefit of the doubt esp. if the goal here is for there to be more goals being scored. Also, I agree with Robbie. They are not in the loop as to what is going on and the replays the VAR is seeing and the fact that it takes so long to judge the decision.

IMO, just use it the same way it is used in the NFL. There, we can see the replays the ref sees and there is a time limit for the ref to study the play and decide whether the play is reversed or the decision on the field stands if there is no real evidence to overturn. Now that is difficult to do in the PL cos th pathetic "Powers That Be" have barred the refs from going to the monitors pitch-side to look at the replays. Hence, we are right back where we are.

31 Dec 2019 12:37:02
A suggestion, why not have it that when the VAR operator looks at their screen, if they cannot see straight away if a player is offside or not, then let play continue. If a player is obviously offside then call it. By giving the VAR operator a maximum time of say 5 or 6 seconds to make up their mind it would speed up the decisions and NO use of these lines to help them decide.
I know Sky and BT pundits would then rip the decision apart if it's wrong when they use their version of VAR to forensically examine the event but we would have to accept the consequences as we know the alternative is what we have now.

{Ed001's Note - I agree with that and have said similar, when it comes to offsides.}

31 Dec 2019 12:31:46
SGRed 40cms hahaha are you mad.

31 Dec 2019 12:47:16
There is 3 things that need to change for next season with VAR. 1) penalty decisions, they r too subjective and ref on pitch should have final call on them. 2) the offside, until the technology can say without doubt if a player was off or not then it should not be used for close calls. 3) some rules, especially the one about the hand ball hitting attacking players hand its free kick hits defenders hand its play on. Created a lot of problems for themselves by introducing that rule. Before VAR u got some decisions and next week u didnt, I don't think anything has changed with VAR u still get some decisions and next week u dont, only difference is now it takes longer to come to the decision.

{Ed025's Note - i would just ditch it until they get it right roro, its a farce at the moment and ruining the game mate..

31 Dec 2019 12:47:40
My thoughts are they need to improve the technology to make more accurate and then it should be reduced to just the feet.

This armpit stuff is not for me. Would be easier to get the lines correct too. Less lines to draw.

{Ed025's Note - the way it is davey it could well end up costing a team their place in the premiership, its tight down there and 1 bad decision could mean the difference between relegation and survival mate, i would honestly suspend it until they have a foolproof method for its re-introduction mate..

31 Dec 2019 13:13:53
Surely it can't be suspended halfway through a season. We are just going to have to put up with it for next 5 months unfortunately.

31 Dec 2019 13:27:18
I love VAR its keeping us on the undefeated rollercoaster.

In all seriousness though the main point I dislike about it is the fans celebrating a goal then having to wait for 2 to 3 minutes for the decision to be returned. It's really killing the joy of being in the stands.

I really don't know how to can be improved because as pointed out above there is no exact point of reference to be marked against. I suppose it could be used for just ruling offside and the rest of the decisions be handed to the referees.

There is no way the FA are going to admit that they have got it wrong and retract it now so I guess we will just have to get on with it.

I think the only way to get it changed would be for the referees to refuse to attend the games until it is sorted out, because ultimately it is their jobs which are being taken over by it.

{Ed002's Note - It is nothing whatsoever to do with the FA - the Premier League teams (including Liverpool) voted for it to be introduced.}

31 Dec 2019 13:48:19
I just want the came to be more dynamic and fluid. Too many times we see a 2-3 minute break due to VAR that kills the tempo of the game completely.

31 Dec 2019 13:09:05
There'll still be bad decisions either way but I agree. I think the offside calls would be acceptable if the technology was 100% which it isn't and only the feet counted. Fact is though technology is not 100% and therefore I tend to agree with you Ed 25.

{Ed025's Note - yeah its a bit of a lottery at the moment davey..

31 Dec 2019 14:22:47
Good ideas from SHred and poleman. I would say let's take it further and shift the decision back to the on field refereeing team. So each of the linesmen and the referee should have a large mobile sized screen where they are shown the incident for 15 seconds from 2-3 different angles so they may reflect upon their original decision and overturn it as necessary. That way the referees authority is restored, the water of time offer millimeters is advised, and a face is given to the decision so that if TV coverage after 20 minutes review disagrees with the decision we can still place the blame to the subjective opinion of the referee and move on.

The biggest problem with the VAR is that it puts on a pretense that decisions are objectively correct whereas we know there is still a large degree of subjectivity in it. We don't mind subjectivity, as long as it's not wrapped in pompous BS about accuracy.

{Ed002's Note - That is the proposal from Chelsea (although not for the assistants. Some grounds (clubs playing in Europe) are already equipped with the facilities on a permanent or temporary basis.}

31 Dec 2019 14:28:03
Surely the point of reference for offside should be the players feet! Arms and shoulders can move on lots of positions and I think it’s unfair if your fingers are offside but your body isn’t!

31 Dec 2019 15:32:46
Agree the other option would just be for the referee to review potential offside calls on a pitch side monitor if they have any doubt in their mind.

No lines or measuring offsides by the millimeter, just a quick sense check for a clear and obvious error. If it’s not obviously offside without requiring a measuring aid then the goal stands.

31 Dec 2019 14:17:34
{Ed025's Note - the way it is davey it could well end up costing a team their place in the premiership, its tight down there and 1 bad decision could mean the difference between relegation and survival mate

===========================
How you doing ed025 hope you had a good Christmas .
I understand how you feel about VAR, but you must admit it had improved/ corrected a lot of the bad decisions made by the referees . A clear recent example is our goal against Wolves . Referees and assistant wrongly said handball, VAR clearly showed it was shoulder and there have been few more of those corrections. I do agree with you on the offside situation, they still have n't got that right, not sure what they can do, but remember offsides where contentious even before VAR, and I think they should stick to the technology and find a solution to the offside situation, rather than go back in time .

{Ed025's Note - hi roy yeah im good mate, i have to disagree that its working, for me all this offside by a toenail or an armpit is pathetic, i dont think VAR enhances the game i think its spoiling it, its too forensic for me and the game will end up like american football unless we either ditch it or improve it immensely..

31 Dec 2019 18:27:56
when people say there is a margin of error of 13 inches, isn't it all relative? like, are you trying to say that at the frame at which point the ball is kkcked, the runner (on the same screen) could be up to +/ - 13 inches from their real positionong? that seema nonsense to me.

31 Dec 2019 19:20:21
The points of reference in a tennis or cricket match are no more fixed than football. If you have several cameras it is quite possible to triangulate.

01 Jan 2020 05:28:44
Eds, quick question on the new handball rule. If I nvr rmb wrongly, handball will be called if it hit the attacker hand in the build up to the goal. What is the definition of build up here?

Say if Van Dijk handballed against wolves. (We know he didn’t by looking at the spin of the ball), will it be pulled back for a handball?

If he had handballed and we go on a 20-25 pass move before we scored, will it be pulled back? (As it happened in the ‘build Up’ to the goal)

If he handballed and we are keeping our pressure up in the same phase of play. Wolves defender managed to clear the ball on occasion during the Attack but do not have control on the ball. Will it be pulled back?

{Ed001's Note - if a Wolves player had touched it in between, then it would not get called back. As for definition of build up, that is an interpretation of the ref and up to him to decide how far back to go.}

31 Dec 2019 18:30:35
25 - how will VAR cost a team if the calls are basocally all correct? you and others are bemoaning the process for the decision and are them blurring that with the actual decision.

{Ed025's Note - its not football though faith, deciding games on a toe nail or an armpit is science mate and its taking the fun out of the game, where do we go from here? every tackle reviewed?..every jump for the ball in case there is a shove?..every pass down the line in case the ball went out...every free kick in case the wall was only 9.995m away..and the list goes on, the game will end up being 12 hours long and the fans bored out of their skulls mate, errors are part and parcel of the game..

01 Jan 2020 02:41:17
{Ed025's Note - the way it is davey it could well end up costing a team their place in the premiership, its tight down there and 1 bad decision could mean the difference between relegation and survival mate

Seems like an Evertonian concern to me ;)

{Ed025's Note - a few weeks ago maybe IDOG, but now carlo is at the helm the good ship everton is sailing through calmer waters mate and its full steam ahead for next season.. :)

01 Jan 2020 09:15:10
VAR cost Norwich 2 points the other evening by ruling out Pukkis goal. He was level at worst.

01 Jan 2020 09:35:29
25 - yup I fully get that part of it for sure. For me the reaction to what really amounts to teething problems has been way over the top and also mis-directed. Yes there are problems, but it's not to do with the decisions that are being made and everything to do with the process. So then you get guys like Conor Coady being praised for an emotional rant about how he couldn't understand what was happening because no one was telling him. But that turned into VAR is being unfair to them as if it got the calls wrong. Sorry, VAR was spot on, but there should be way more transparency and clarity around the calls that are made.

For me, offsides are easy because they are objective. You are offside or you are not offside. and whatever metric, or rule change we want will always bring about the potential for these 1mm margins. So, if VAR is here to say, then we have to live with it but hope that the powers that be, as incompetent as they are, turn their brains and hearts on to develop a transparent system so fans, players and coaches know what is happening.

American sports have this part of the game spot on, and yes you may get blown calls still, but at least there is transparency and an explanation for what is going. Can't they pay someone a packet of crisps to make an announcement on the PA to explain tot he crowd lol.

{Ed025's Note - i totally agree about the trust issue faith, but im a traditionalist and i dont think trying to fix something thats not broken is the way forward, half the fun is the contentious decisions and talking points of human error, im a bit of an old fuddy duddy i suppose mate..

01 Jan 2020 10:01:01
25 - I'm from New Zealand right, and we were having this debate on our lfc fans forum. I gave a couple changes I would make which included beaming the footage that the VAR is analyzing live to the crowd OR showing the still shots of the key moment. i. e., offsides, handball etc. But then I was totally shocked to learn that there are many grounds that don't have screens including at Anfield! Some of the ex-pat brits on our forum were saying it's to do with not limiting crowd numbers, staying true to the live game etc etc and to be honest, I just thought this was so backwards lol I'm not sure what the true reasoning is for this, but, and don't be offended by this lol, I just feel like football needs to be move with the times. There is a new age of player, fan engagement that needs to match 2020. In this day and age of social media and instant news, to introduce technology but not have provision for instant info provided to everyone present is mind-numbingly old-school and short sighted.

The powers that be have messed it up so badly, that even now that the calls are even more correct than before, players and fans are still complaining hahaha.

{Ed025's Note - as i say faith im an old codger mate, if it was up to me instead of screens they would have black and white tellys.. :)







 

 

 
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