28 Jun 2021 10:06:16
Ed001 mate, sell or keep Philips? Although he would be a fantastic backup, personally I think he should be allowed move and establish himself as a starter elsewhere.

{Ed001's Note - be silly to sell him, Virgil is likely to struggle with niggles for a few months, same with Gomez when he returns and Matip is always injured. So that would only leave Konate and Phillips. But if he wants to go and play first choice elsewhere, I would let him go for his sake. Personally it would be Matip first out the door for me as he is never fit and on a large wage. Good as he is when fit, he just isn't fit enough to make it worth while.}

28 Jun 2021 10:46:27
Allow him that in 12 months time with our own better centre backs proving their fitness this season first. We have had him on the books for years, he delivered massively for us and if we want to keep him one more season it would be because we value what he could contribute.

I hate when people make out we are taking advantage of players at every opportunity.

28 Jun 2021 10:35:33
Exactly how I feel Ed, Matip is a top lad, but too injury prone to rely upon. Phillips proved more than capable of being a premier league centre back and improved almost every game. VVD is still in recovery mode and Gomez isn’t going to be ready for ages.

28 Jun 2021 10:35:48
Spot on, Ed01. These things are not as cut and dry as people want to make it look like. Whether people like it or not, the reality is that Phillips has a HUGE say in all of this. If Matip is not moved on (as clearly, he won't be) then why would Phillips want to stay?

The guy is 24 and has made a PL career for himself right at the death after nearly getting sold OR going to the States for Uni. He does not have time to waste being 5th choice behind Matip who should be sold YET Klopp wants to keep. Also keep in mind that LFC need to raise funds to sign these "shiny new toys" some on here want so there's that.

So in the end, whatever happens, happens. If Phillips wants to stay then, that is fine by me. If he wants to go now then again, I am cool with that as he has more than earned the right to decide his own future. It is what it is.

{Ed001's Note - I don't see the need to turn this into a dig at Klopp.}

28 Jun 2021 11:37:02
I just think the future fitness of our centre backs is so dangerously uncertain that we can neither bring anyone in nor let anyone go. I feel we need to keep all hands on deck in the event that we need them as we can’t be expecting another top centre back to be coming in and potentially not even playing, but we can’t be letting Phillips Davies and Williams go because it could go very wrong very quickly. I think it’s best we just utilise the numerous centre backs we have under contract already as best we can, if we don’t end up needing them we can move them on in the New Year. I don’t get this idea that we can’t keep them because it’ll be a bit mean, they’re under contract at Liverpool Football Club and as such it is our right to retain their services for as long as we need, and i honestly think we really do.

28 Jun 2021 11:56:30
Ed01, I did not intend to turn this into a dig at Klopp in any way. I just disagree with the CB option he has decided to keep. We just have a disagreement, that's all. May have come of that way but no such intent at all.

28 Jun 2021 12:11:10
Keep Phillips until Jan 2021 is the best option all round.

{Ed002's Note - Not the plan.}

28 Jun 2021 12:33:54
I understand Klopps thinking, Matip is a top defender and is far more suited to the way Klopp likes to play. He is probably thinking that providing Liverpool do not suffer catastrophic defensive injuries again, then Matip is perfect to play occasionally as a back up, obviously he is not capable of playing twice a week but that will not be his role.
Klopp was reluctant to pick Nat last season, even with an injury crisis and will clearly be a 4th or 5th choice this season. I think Liverpool will get the best possible fee for Nat by selling him now. Otherwise he faces a season on the bench and his value will be less next summer.
Origi also should have been sold coming off the back of his heroics against Barcelona in Champions league, instead Liverpool kept him for 2 seasons, he's barely played and we will struggle to sell him for a decent fee.
Selling Nat is a business decision, somebody has to go as the club need funds for incoming transfers. Maybe Phillips is worth more than Matip who has been injured for months. Keeping Plillips would be the same mistake made with Origi.

28 Jun 2021 12:40:27
As Ed001 mentioned before, keep till January and if things are going well with our other CBs, sell for his sake. He definitely deserves to play regularly.

{Ed002's Note - That is not the plan. They have others who can provide cover and are already discussing his sale.}

28 Jun 2021 12:53:55
Why would we be sensible and keep Phillips, he is a sell able asset and without him going we don't buy anyone, we don't have owners who want to buy success and build on what we have done, we have a league and champs league, who on earth would think to spend and build on that, ha, its a hard slog with ins and outs.

28 Jun 2021 13:19:57
Big fan of Phillips and would love to keep. But if he decides he wants to go elsewhere for more playing time I think he’s owed that much.

28 Jun 2021 13:29:57
Selling philips is ok if that's the decision for money.
But i don't get the matip is great defender argument. He is slow and not even good in air. How is he better than philips? Red tits off please.

28 Jun 2021 14:16:38
We can sell a player quite easily, that’s of use to us and is our 3rd or 4th best option at CB. But can’t seem to move on players that we have no use for like the likes of Wilson, grujic, origi etc. I understand we’ve f****d around long enough for interest in these players to wane and for the price tags to drop considerably but we move on Phillips in a heart beat once a similar offer comes in, to ones we’ve had for Wilson, and probably the likes of grujic and origi as well. This is a stupid decision, and like Ed has said, matip should be the one moving on. I’ve said this all summer, Phillips has actually played himself into that role, whereas matip, as class as he is when fit, is never fit. The brain cells in making that judgement call is second to none.

28 Jun 2021 14:21:06
I love how accusations of being ‘red tinted’ have become the calling card for anyone expressing a nonsensical opinion that they can’t actually back up. A bit like when people try to justify the rhetoric of a right wing politician by claiming they ‘just tell it like it is’.

Phillips, while having performed way above the level that could be expected of him, is a limited centre back. He’s very immobile, occasionally rash, sometimes steps up when he shouldn’t and just isn’t good enough on the ball to be a top level centre back. I still think he’s a good player and is good enough to be our backup centre back, but his limitations are obvious and he has done very well to work around them as best he can.

In order for you to believe he is better than Matip, you mustn’t have watched any of the 2018/ 19 season. The highest standard of football arguably any Liverpool team has ever reached was achieved with Joel Matip at centre back for most of it. In many games he was every bit van Dijk’s equal and occasionally outshined him (i actually thought he was the better player in the Champions League final despite van Dijk getting man of the match) . Composed, excellent aerial presence and fantastic reading of the game, Matip grew into one of the best centre backs in the world that season and was instrumental in the unbelievable heights that team reached. He has never been the fastest and yet i’ve never really seen him get done for pace because his defensive nous is that good. Despite his injuries, the odd time we do actually get to see him on the pitch he continues to perform to that very same standard, irrespective of how poor his fitness has been or how little game time he has had.

I really like Phillips, but to suggest that he has in any way equalled or surpassed Joel Matip’s level and achievements is, quite frankly, ignorant and nonsensical. It just isn’t true and anybody who has seen both players play will tell you the same. To cite Matip’s pace as a negative trait in comparison to Phillips, a player who unlike Matip doesn’t have the nous to compensate for it and regularly gets done because of it, makes me wonder whether you’re on the wind up. If you think Phillips is better than Matip i’m not actually sure you’ve seen either of them play.

Furthermore, how can preferring one Liverpool player to another be a case of ‘red tinted glasses’? THEY BOTH PLAY FOR LIVERPOOL😂.

28 Jun 2021 15:35:09
AW Matip started 17 games in 18, 9 in 19 and 8 in 2020 season. How he became the savior of our defense the nesta to our timid backline while not even playing 50 percent games is simply beyond.
Go on hype him up. Keep living red tints.
Calling matip better than vvd is outright laughable. If anything vvd made him look better.
Any sane team would hold on to philips and sell matip.

28 Jun 2021 15:52:49
Matip is clearly a better all round footballer than Phillips, but Phillips isn’t made of crisps, unlike Matip, I’ve literally seen more reliable Lancia Beta’s and that’s saying something. If we’re talking about having a reliable defensively sound fourth choice centre back who can step in and be reliable then it has to be Phillips over Matip as you can’t rely on Matip to be fit. Cold hard facts.

28 Jun 2021 16:08:03
Good post there AW, and I agree with what you've said.

Ignore Harry (Akira) - he's building up a head of steam of daft points of view and will get banned soon.

On ability alone, Matip is much more a Klopp/ Liverpool CB than Phillips.

I saw another post that if we had 11 Phillips in the team we would walk the league. I can't fault his passion and his commitment, just as I couldn't fault Carra's. But a team of players like that would finish mid-table. They would given every ounce but wouldn't quite have the skill required to win.

I am so annoyed that Klopp didn't use Phillips earlier, that could've pushed us to 2nd or even challenging (given the 1st 1/ 3rd and final 1/ 3rd of the season we were top of the form table) but hindsight is 20-20!

If Klopp has confidence enough in VVD, Konate and Gomez's fitness, then it makes sense to let Nat go, especially if he wants 1st team football. He will be a rock around which a Burnley (for example) could build their defence in years to come. I would have more respect for him if he wanted to leave to get 1st team football than if he wanted to stay to get the odd game, much as I will miss him.

28 Jun 2021 17:09:37
Zed its called presenting your view. If a defender who can't stay fit is termed better than a defender who can put his heart on sleeve every game and mind you defend very well still and you choose the unfit one than i cannot support it mate.


Also i am not harry. Eds can clarify. But i get why he isn't here anymore.

28 Jun 2021 17:35:43
I agree Akira. There is no point highlighting a players good points from the treatment table (how often is Matip unfit? ) . Yeah, really good player for 10 games a season, if that.
So who do you keep? The player that can't play because he has his own name engraved on the treatment table or the player clearly not as good but an actual body you can actually rely on?

28 Jun 2021 18:06:38
Also for a fact the captain of the club is all engine and heart than downright ability. There are many better players than hendo technically or ability wise. But none quite fit like him for liverpool. I see that in philips too.
Matip is a luxury philips is an essence. Teams aren't built on just ability. Teams are built on character and mentality.
I would every day take philips over matip.
The decision is purely based on money and the hard fact remains philips after performing at the biggest level deserves his spot which he isn't being given to him. We are shifting him out for a few bucks because we can't give him the first team he wants as we have signed another luxury player in konate.

28 Jun 2021 18:23:19
The best answer is to put right what is going on with Matip.
If he’s got a chronic injury issue, then manage it because you’re unlikely to be able to sell him.
Don’t forget Davies, there doesn’t appear to be any intention to move him on at this stage?

28 Jun 2021 18:36:05
But that isn’t the view that you just presented, is it Akira mate.

We were arguing over who was the better defender, not which defender you’d rather keep. I’d be inclined to keep Phillips over Matip if i had to choose between them because Phillips isn’t made of biscuits, but that isn’t what we were arguing about.

You argued that Matip was a better player than Phillips, which is nonsense. Not the same as who you’d rather keep, is it? I can only assume you have tried to shift the goalposts because you realised your initial argument was wrong, or because you were incapable of reading what i was actually saying. You also said that I claimed Matip was an outright better player than van Dijk, which I did not, so i’m more inclined to think that it’s probably the latter and that reading someones post properly is a bit too much effort for you, or simply too difficult.

As for your manipulation of statistics, Matip played 31 games in total during 2018/ 19 including 22 in the league and most of them after the injury to Joe Gomez at Burnley at the midpoint of the season. I’m not sure if your maths is as good as your reading but that is clearly just over the bizarre and arbitrary 50% appearance benchmark you yourself have decided is the requirement for being a good player. He was ever present during the run in and was one of our best players, i don’t remember claiming he was the ‘saviour of our defence’. The subsequent seasons he had a horrific injury issues which i alluded to, but he also played at the same high standard every time he played.

So not only are you moving the goalposts, not bothering to read my posts properly and putting words in my mouth i have not said, you’re also massaging statistics to suit your argument. It’s little wonder Ed001 doesn’t come on this page as much as he used to.

28 Jun 2021 18:53:34
Saved me writing something similar AW.

28 Jun 2021 19:55:43
Liverpool will play a high defensive line next season and Phillips is not the right player for that system, as he is too slow and not quite good enough on the ball. But he is a good defender and there are teams in the premier league who will play to his strengths.
Matip will be 4th choice next season and if Phillips stayed on, he will be 5th choice and I think he deserves better than that.
Furthermore, as I said earlier, Liverpool need funds and somebody has to be sold. let's hope Liverpool are asking for realistic sums for all the other players with no future, of which there are too many to name.

28 Jun 2021 19:53:48
Ed2, if I may. Could you explain who the discussions with Phillips have been with please? Is Burney one of the teams?
Thanks.

{Ed002's Note - Burnley but there is a big difference in valuation.}

29 Jun 2021 07:13:16
What price have Liverpool set for Phillips?

Thanks Eds.

{Ed002's Note - The have asked Burnley for £15M.}

29 Jun 2021 09:03:49
AW, you nailed it, man. Anyone using Matip's poor fitness record to blanket his immense, proven ability at the highest level in a bid to make Phillips his equal, is type of intellectual affliction we are being afflicted with on a daily basis in public debate.

Those like Harry (are you Japanese now? ) engage in such debates using this type of tactic as in, you bring down the strong points of someone you don't like (Matip) and then, overblow the strong point of the one you do favor in Phillips (knowing that there is NO comparison logically) and say "See, they are the same". Oh n btw Harry, AW never said Matip was better than VVD. He said he outplayed him at times in that monstrous 18/ 19 season. See, you don't even read the posts properly hence, your baseless responses.

AW is not overhyping Matip as that is what is actually laughable. Matip will start for near any top 6 team except prolly City. Him being oft injured is NOT and will NEVER be a knock on his ability as a footballer or CB. Actually, I would like Matip to be moved on ONLY cos he cannot stay fit, NOT cos he is not good enuff or overhyped.

29 Jun 2021 11:10:06
I'm guessing Burnley want to pay about half that fee ed?

{Ed002's Note - I am told they would perhaps offer £10M.}

29 Jun 2021 12:21:48
Seems like a very good offer. Perhaps they could meet halfway with add ons?