24 Jun 2024 16:36:09
Just to take a break from bashing our own players, can we all take a moment to applaud the attitude of Wataru Endo.
In an interview he was asked if Liverpool need to strengthen in the 6 position and he alluded to the fact Mac Allister is better further forward and Bajcetic is still very young. I'm paraphrasing here but he basically said that we should sign a new number 6 because we're short in that position, and then he followed that up by saying he'll just win his position back.
I absolutely love that. None of this sulking like you get with the new generation coming through if they have to fight for their place. He is such an impeccable character and leader. I thought we'd struggle to replace Milner but I think Endo is cut from the same cloth. Old school mentality monster.
He built a reputation in the Bundesliga for being a highly intelligent player who could adapt his role in the team as the game unfolded to be exactly what was required. Sounds a lot like total football to me. I think Slot's going to love Endo. At 31 he might not be the long term solution, but he still has a huge part to play going forward. Write him off at your peril! Love him.
24 Jun 2024 17:19:01
What an absolute guy he is. One of my favs for sure.
24 Jun 2024 17:44:15
He is my hero, lol, I love that he has a YouTube channel analysing the minutiae of his performances too loll.
24 Jun 2024 17:56:57
Nice one, MKS re: Endo. You know the guy actually wrote a book entitled, "Duel"? What a guy and IMO, one of the most elite pleyers (in terms of his mentality) to ever play for our institution. The guy is asking for us to sign a DM which could reduce his playing time and what does he do? He backs himself and says he'll just win his position back, like it was nothing. It also means he cares about the club's success even if that means he is not playing. These are the types of players we should be looking to sign in the furture, IMO.
An absolute role model and a credit to his family, his club, his country and to Japanese football in general. Oh, and a hell of a player, I might add.
{Ed025's Note - sounds like a nice guy with a great attitude Oli, but lets not get away from the fact that he is a very average footballer mate..
24 Jun 2024 18:20:04
Ed025 - Klopp must be the greatest manager of all time if he can still get all these rubbish players winning trophies/ getting far in competitions. I know this is a banter page and I think you're great on here but they can't all be bad as you make out. Endo is the latest average player to add to your list. Love you mate.
{Ed025's Note - its just my view lee, i like Endo but lets be honest hes not getting in any what you would deem big teams sides mate, will do a job of course and all power to him, very good pro, you have to realize that not all your players will be world class my friend and that goes for every team, its about balance and as much as we covet the high value chess pieces we still need pawns.. :)
24 Jun 2024 18:29:16
I'm with Ed025 on this. Let's not get carried away.
24 Jun 2024 18:55:37
Average my ass Ed025 ? you’re being so bitter lately. You’re normally very measured. If you look through all the starting DM’s at the 17 teams who stayed up last year, the only ones I’d swap him for are Rodri, Wharton and Guimaraes. He’s at least as good as the Jorginho, Bissouma, Paulinha, Casemiro and Kamara. He’s certainly better than actual average DM’s like Soucek, Baleba, Gueye, Caicedo, Cook, Gomes, Yates and Norgaard.
People act like we finished mid table the way they state our whole team. Every single player you bring up on here is not good enough apparently. We came third with a trophy and Endo was our best player during our best period of form in the season. He’s not going to be easy to upgrade on at all. The guys an international captain and was the best player on the pitch in the League Cup final by a mile. Elliott and Virgil were the only ones anywhere near him in that game. He’s a machine.
{Ed025's Note - as i said MK i like him, i dont think hes great but he will certainly do a job, you cant have all world beaters in your team mate and being a lesser light seems to suit him..
24 Jun 2024 19:01:50
But if a pawn is highly effective at what he does and is crucial to the team winning, doesn’t that make him a good player? I don’t get what your criterion to distinguish good and average is, Ed, wijnadum wasn’t modric but he didn’t need to be, he received instructions and was excellent at what he did with the skill set that he had, I think off the top of my head I don’t know many other players that can protect the ball in small spaces and get us advancing up the field that way, maybe people wouldn’t take issue if you didn’t use the word ‘average’, japanese fans love him and kids look up to him, he was integral to our title run in his first season in the prem, and how do you know he won’t get even better? Just because he’s already 31? But he’s still acclimatising himself to a new league, we don’t know how consistently good he can be.
All I’m saying is just because we like our players and acclaim their ability, it doesn’t mean you need to take the other tack and act like we think we have nothing but world beaters to take us down a notch. Nobody is saying Endo is ‘world class’ in the most popular sense of the word these days, but i think it’s undeniable that he is a very good player, an intelligent one and a highly professional one.
{Ed025's Note - i will have that PB, thats all im asking for mate...perspective, Trent is decent enough full back and Endo can do a job in midfield...see its easy..
24 Jun 2024 19:14:16
Ed025. Absolutely agree not all are World class but I'm not saying that and neither are most of the posters on here. Endo is not average and never will be. He's a very good players. A great professional. An example on how to be a good pro. Not average in any way shape of form. In fact if more lads had his mindset they'd be better players. Are we actually agreeing here ha ha.
{Ed025's Note - great professional...tick, model attitude...tick...nice guy...tick, one of the best in the league...hmmmmm..
24 Jun 2024 19:16:51
Let's also not forget that an average LFC player is better than most on the planet.
When you say a premier league player is rubbish or average, put that into context with the hundreds and thousands of professional players good enough to forge a living from their talent, that never play in their countries top league, let alone the Championship, or Premier League, that never captain their respective teams or countries. Endo doesn't need to be anything mind-blowing special just like Hendo, Fabs, Wink or Milner before him didn't need to be, they were still our most successful midfield in 30 years. He does his job extremely well and that's all that's needed.
{Ed025's Note - no argument from me Westwood mate..
24 Jun 2024 19:21:42
Not having that Ed, I’m still of the opinion that Trent is a generational talent and a singular genius, but we can agree to disagree there.
{Ed025's Note - we will have to unless things change PB, but i can live with that mate..
24 Jun 2024 19:27:25
I get that Ed025, and as I say I think there are at least 3 better DM’s in the league so I’m not trying to over sell him here. But he’s clearly not average. He’s very good. Not great, not world class, but quite clearly very good. I’d swap him for Rodri, Guimaraes or Wharton without question. I think Rodri is world class, Guimaraes is great, and Wharton is very good already with the potential to be world class. There are no other first choice DM’s in the league who I think are or will be better than Endo though. He’s at least the same level as Jorginho in my opinion. Liverpool and Arsenal didn’t fight for the title with duds in the heart of the midfield. Come on man.
{Ed025's Note - you are preaching to the converted here MK, hes good and you get what it says on the tin mate..
24 Jun 2024 20:01:32
Van Dijk was MotM in the League Cup final and by some way.
Integral to our title run in? The one where we finished third in a three horse race? ?
It wasn't that long ago that it was considered a disaster by many on here.
24 Jun 2024 20:11:25
Ed 25 dangling the maggot again.
{Ed025's Note - no fishing on my part Colonel, like superman i always tell the truth as i see it mate, you might not like what i say but thats not my problem..
24 Jun 2024 20:35:02
Disagree Rigsby, Endo had Caicedo, Gallagher and Enzo in his pocket. He bossed that game for 120 minutes. Virgil was superb but lest we forget Endo was in midfield with teenagers like McConnell and Clark. He was immense that day.
Also we finished 3rd because we didn’t have a natural DM to rotate with Endo, in my opinion. Most of the dropped points in the run in came when Endo didn’t start or when he was subbed off after 60-70 minutes. We needed competition for him and Thiago and Bajcetic both being injured left us short.
24 Jun 2024 20:41:12
Ed025. Fair play to you having your own opinion. Absolutely I've seen you make some great points. Maybe you have that ruthless title winning mentality we need. With that in mind what would the strongest 11 you'd pick for Liverpool? You're allowed 3 realistic signings. I'll return with my strongest team for Everton, guessing who's left after this summer. Want to play?
{Ed025's Note - not at this point in time Lee, we are getting a few players in and i imagine Liverpool will be doing the same mate, but im certainly up for that before the season starts my friend, the only problem may be that if the Reds hierarchy see my prowess they might ditch Slot and put me in charge.. :)
24 Jun 2024 21:07:09
Endo is the type of player that other teams fans won’t appreciate. He’s not flashy and you won’t see him on many highlight reels but he is extremely good at what he does and without a player like him the rest of the team won’t function properly.
He’s no Rodri or prime Fabinho, largely due to his stature but what he lacks in physical attributes he makes up for in his mentality.
I really wouldn’t expect Ed25 to see it though because he doesn’t care about Liverpool so he doesn’t notice or appreciate it when a player is giving his absolute all for the cause and doing the selfless, ugly stuff.
{Ed025's Note - not true actually BP i do care mate, i watch a hell of a lot of football and think i know a good player when i see one, he is an unsung hero to the reds fans and i get that...which is why i have said nothing bad about him..
24 Jun 2024 21:08:54
Ha ha love it Ed025. Total respect that you spend time on the red side of this site. As for you replacing Slot, well unless you have a bald head I'm not interested lol.
{Ed025's Note - no baldness on my side Lee, in fact i have got a head like a lodging house cat, when i go to the barbers i have i cutting and 2 bagging it mate.. :)
24 Jun 2024 21:25:15
I’m with Ed he’s not a world class player but he’s certainly punching above his weight. His performances in all the games I attended were generally top draw. He also played far better than Jones, Gravenberch and Szobo last season, so he’s a valuable squad player for me in that midfield.
24 Jun 2024 21:27:13
Endo started against United and Palace when we dropped points.
He couldn't have been that integral if we needed to rotate him.
He's a decent enough squad player, that's it. I don't think he's good enough to start. We need a better defensive midfielder next season.
He wouldn't start for City or Arsenal and that's one of the reasons we finished third behind them.
24 Jun 2024 22:12:05
He came off at HT against Palace and got subbed on about 70 mins against United though Rigsby. We needed another DM so we didn’t need a 31 year old to play 90 every week.
24 Jun 2024 22:57:02
That's my point, MK: we needed another DM. A better one that could play 90 minimum every week.
He was hardly integral in the title run in if he was coming off at half time when we were losing or coming off when we were losing a game that we ended up drawing.
Or maybe he was integral in a title run in that proved to be disappointing.
As I've said, I like him and I'd keep him but I am aware of his limitations.
24 Jun 2024 23:07:09
Ed25, still waiting for Tom Davies to prove that he is an average footballer. Please, let me know when that happens.
{Ed025's Note - Tom aspired to be average Oli, but has made himself a very nice life all the same mate so who am i to rain on the guys parade?, i would still take him ahead of Curtis Jones actually but im sure some would disagree..
24 Jun 2024 23:04:39
Rigsby, you do know that Endo had just come back from injury in both games and also struggled for form cos his legs were gone, rightright? Also, he was integral to all the progress we made to get theat point with top draw performances (including putting a ful beatdown on KDB to the point that he was crying on the bench) so yes, he was very integral. And no amount of recency bias will EVER change that.
25 Jun 2024 02:06:56
I think we need to consider how Endo fits into our team instead of him as an individual player. As an individual player, he is limited and there are definitely players who are more athletic than him. However, it is also undeniable that he makes our team much more solid when he plays, and we look better when he does. Can we upgrade on him? Definitely. But I do like him, and I feel that every team needs a player like him.
And on the point about us needing another DM, I do agree on that as well, be it a new player or Bajcetic. However, it is unjust to say that Endo did not have the legs to complete 90mins each week. If I recall, he completed 90mins the game before our Cup final against Chelsea, where he played the full 120mins. So, he has shown that he has the legs but playing 90mins every single game is a huge ask regardless of who that player is. We had no options to rotate him with and that was our limitation last season.
25 Jun 2024 03:06:12
Are people's expectations that each of the regular first team starters/ rotational players are all considered world class?
It seems to be that way anyways.
I don't have this expectation at all and tbh, I'm not sure there is any team in the world that can really say they have world class players at every position including their bench.
The likes of Endo and Gomez who seem to be regular whipping boys on here are not world class, but they don't need to be to be an effective member of the squad that is challenging for titles.
I just find the micro-analysis of an individual player really cumbersome. It seems to be that it's either against the prime version of themselves that they're working towards or a world class alternative. And if they're not either right now, then they need to be shipped out.
And then we go again.
For me, it's also important to consider how a player fits into the squad, their playing style and how they compliment others in the team. There is no guarantee that the expensive alternative will a) fit in seamlessly as a player or b) fit into the culture of the club and city. So I would say that a new signing brings as much risk to the squad as does keeping a player who is settled, contributing and developed towards the best version of themselves.
25 Jun 2024 05:59:47
Is that the same game that KDB got an assist in a game that his team drew with us at Anfield 1-1.
Hell of a beat down that.
From what I remember KDB and City were excellent at points during that game. But so were Liverpool including Endo.
Endo had an excellent season and surprised many including myself.
But we don’t have to start making things up to build him up.
25 Jun 2024 07:29:13
Most of the dropped points in the run in came when Endo didn’t start or when he was subbed off after 60-70 minute
Pretty certain that’s not correct MK. From memory the only time Liverpool conceded after Endo went off was the 3-3 against Villa and he came on early 1-0 down against Everton which we lost 2-0 . I could be wrong ?♂️.
25 Jun 2024 07:35:02
Oli, so he was injured and his legs had gone but he was integral in the disappointing title run in?
He had a decent season even though he was away for the Asia Cup and Mac was preferred earlier in the season at 6.
When was KDB really crying about being beatdown by Endo? Or is that like TAA being wounded out of Liverpool and Konate being MotM in the CL final?
Faith, he's neither world class nor rubbish. I don't think anyone has said either of those things. But I don't love him or think he's a legend.
Correct JK, although I think it's easier to jump on the 'we love Endo the legend' bandwagon rather than being realistic about his ability.
25 Jun 2024 07:44:43
Irish Rover we conceded 2 against Spurs after he went off, we conceded 1 against West Ham after he went off, 2 against Villa after he went off. Those late goals after he was subbed cost us +4 pts and +5 GD.
Throw in that the only 2 games we lost in the title run in were the only 2 that Endo played 45 minutes or less. I think it was pretty clear dropping/ subbing him to shoehorn Macca in at DM so that Jones and Szoboszlai could come back into the team after injury, was an issue at the back end of the season. That's just my opinion of course.
25 Jun 2024 08:34:49
Mk West Ham equalised in 77th minute mate and Endo went off in the 79th.
Endos done well but we concede goals with him on the pitch as well. Prior to Dec when he was settling and January when he was away with Japan our results were pretty good.
25 Jun 2024 08:41:15
MK, we didn't drop points against Spurs though.
He was taken off against Palace when we were chasing the game and needed to score goals. It was the same against United.
25 Jun 2024 09:54:08
Seems like we have top class players in all positions and don’t need any new additions.
25 Jun 2024 10:56:56
Just a reminder about what Klopp said about Liverpool’s players …. to be one you have to be special. What’s average at Liverpool is far better than what’s average in about 90% of the planet. Not many average players get to be captain of there country and there is a tendency for people to see people as good if they are flashy. Endo does the little bits and pieces that aren’t always appreciated but that doesn’t equate to him not doing a good job.
25 Jun 2024 11:06:59
Fair play JK23, got that one wrong then. Although you could argue Endo was taken off because he was tiring and allowing West Ham back into the game if that is the case. Either way we were far too reliant on him to play every minute to the best of his ability so we need someone to step up next season, or to sign DM cover. Bajcetic and Morton will hope they can be the solution but I'm not averse to signing Ederson from Atalanta.
Jaguar, literally nobody is saying that so stop being obtuse. We clearly need to replace Adrian, Matip and Thiago. Probably Kelleher and Diaz as well. Possibly even Tsimikas and Gomez although I wouldn't be shocked if they stay. So we will need at least 5, maybe 7 players. All myself and others are asking is that we stop berating the players who actually are good enough and were key players for us last season.
There aren't many bad players at Liverpool. My opinion is that Gomez and Tsimikas are the two weakest players in the squad but if they're happy as emergency cover then fair enough. Everyone else in our senior squad I'd be happy for them to start in a game against Man City or Real Madrid and do a job. We need to replace Matip and Thiago as priorities for me. They weren't offered new deals because of their age and injury records so we can easily add two players right away who will contribute more to the team next season.
25 Jun 2024 11:20:20
Rigsby, I'm not sure what the basis of your argument is? Are you suggesting we don't need to play with a DM at all? Or that Endo alone is enough for next season? Ot just trying to dig out one of our players for pretty much no reason?
I think we were weaker and our performances tailed off when Endo didn't play or was subbed and I stand by that. I'll flip it to you then; how many goals did we score in the final 8 game run in with Endo not on the pitch? I'll do you a favour, 1 against United is the answer, and that was a penalty. I'm not saying Endo is world class, but the team lacks balance without a DM and he did a good job there when called upon. I never said we dropped points to Spurs either by the way. I said it was 4 pts and 5 GD dropped from those 3 games after he was subbed although JK informs me the West Ham game it was a similar time to the sub/ equaliser so I've probably misremembered that to be fair. 2 of that GD dropped was from the Spurs game though. It was tight at the top and GD could've been important.
I believe that with Endo on the pitch we looked less likely to concede because of the protection he gave to the defence and more likely to score because of the freedom he gave to Mac Allister and company. If you disagree, fine. Let's agree to disagree and move on. There must be a new player everyone wants sold today anyway.
25 Jun 2024 11:34:08
Rigsby yes, Endo was integral to our success up to that point when the whole teaam (not just him, btw) fell off and that is undeniable. You being indenial does not change that, IMO. Not sure what your comparison with with Trent or Ibou in the CL final has to do with anything BUT That's your mess to clean up.
And yes, he shut down KDB and rendered him useless (the assist was aoff a corner and he was dismal the rest of the way) and he was complaining on the bench. We all saw it happen so again, the truth i what it is. Because the media did not tell me Endo bossed KDB does not mean he did not. I got my eyes and trust what they see, thank you very much. Even rival fans gave Endo props for outplaying Rodri in that game as well. Just like he outplayed Rice at Anfield and the list goes on. Not bad for "an average player", is it?
IMO, Endo is immense based on his experience, knowledge and reading of the game. Being not athletic is NOT relevant if your game intelligence is elite and you know where to be before danger happens. Just ask Sami Hyppia.
25 Jun 2024 11:44:27
"i would still take him ahead of Curtis Jones actually but im sure some would disagree. "
Tbf if I were a Never-tonian, I would take Tom Davies (So he became what you accuse Jones of being, right? Sound) ahead of Curtis Jones IF Curtis Jones sent my club packing from the FA Cup final with a belter of a goal that looks better and better each time we watch it. You know, that thing Davies (or even Andre Gomes) NEVER did nor could do? Yeah, mate. I feel your pain.
{Ed025's Note - Curtis scored a good goal against us Oli and i applaud him for that and good luck to him, but its no use me just saying "oh yeah Jones is a great player" when i think hes garbage mate, that would be disingenuous and thats not me..
25 Jun 2024 12:23:38
Good post OliRed. I read this site daily and you're hard pushed to find a player the majority of people want to keep. We need real football back. Watching Southgate-ball is enough to drive anyone mad to be fair.
25 Jun 2024 13:33:16
Oli I suppose everyone sees games differently (you obviously have the benefit of seeing every game twice)
Kdb was definitely frustrated being taken off but top players always are (just look at Salah) but I guess under your argument Spurs, West Ham and palace fans etc will say Endo was taken off as he was being boss’d.
25 Jun 2024 13:50:59
MK, we should play with a 6 and last season it should have been Endo because he was the best option. I like him but he is not my hero or a legend.
Oli, my guy, MK said Endo was integral to our title run in and you say it just 'fell off'. Is someone playing an integral role in something falling off a good thing, do.
25 Jun 2024 14:18:11
The OP reminds me of an old joke.
After Liverpool had just beaten Newcastle 4 - 3 at Anfield and killed their title hopes off, Kevin Keegan goes storming down the tunnel and into the changing room to absolutely have it out with the players.
Keegan wasted no time in letting rip and shouted at the Newcastle players “RIGHT. THAT WAS ABSOLUTELY RUBBISH, YOU LET ME DOWN, YOU LET YOURSELVES DOWN AND YOU LET THE FANS DOWN. IF YOU KEEP THROWING AWAY GAMES LIKE THIS, THERE’S going to BE NEW FACES ROUND HERE NEXT SEASON! ”
After several minutes of silence Peter Beardsley sticks his hand up and says “Boss can I say something”, which Keegan says “Yes Peter, go ahead”
“About those new faces that you’re getting, can I be the first to have one”.
{Ed025's Note - nice one VV..
25 Jun 2024 15:35:08
Pretty certain Endo got subbed after West Ham scored their second and didn’t we win against Spurs ?.
25 Jun 2024 16:03:00
I don’t even know what this argument is really about anymore, you can’t sensibly argue that Endo wasn’t crucial to us being in a position to win four cups at one point in time, and being in a title race until the latter few weeks? Or are you saying that if we had a different Dm we would have won the whole lot? Neither argument makes sense to me, I’m sorry, I feel like all me and MK want is for us to give Endo props for the job that he did in his first season in this league, in certain games he was absolutely immense and better than anybody expected or gave him the right to be. Suggesting that we were ultimately as good as Endo (in your opinion, not good enough) is just ridiculous to me, the boy was playing out of his skin at one point and I fail to see how somebody hypothetically could have done much better, or how another 6 would have been durable enough at the end of the season when Endo tailed off slightly or didn’t have the legs to finish games. Sure we relied on him too much, I can agree with that much.
Sure he has limitations, but to me he was one of our players of the season, as was Joe, another whipping boy on here.
25 Jun 2024 16:27:25
Been covered already Irish. RTFP would ya ? Nah to be fair West Ham I've obviously misremembered it but I stand by my point that we were better with him on the pitch. I'm not re-typing the same counter argument again but long story short we didn't score any open play goals in our last 8 games when Endo wasn't on the pitch. 1 penalty was our lot.
You need a DM in the team and Endo was very good at it. I'm moving on now. It's really boring for everyone.
25 Jun 2024 17:43:35
Mk always good discussing and debating with you mate.
Not really sure it’s an argument Patrik but a good old debate. I think everyone agrees Endo had a very good season. But if the only argument is that we were challenging at the end makes him integral then surely that makes everyone integral as we were challenging at the end including the early months when he wasn’t playing and the month of January.
25 Jun 2024 17:55:18
Way to many on this thread for me to start reading all that ?.
25 Jun 2024 18:15:33
wow, long thread!
But I'm with MK on this about Endo. I think he is extremely underrated and there aren't too many DM's in the PL I'd swap him with.
Well said that man.
25 Jun 2024 19:07:06
Endo had a good season. I think him being crucial to us last season is pushing it a bit and the same goes for Gomez.
My argument is that I don't think he's a hero or a legend or anything like that. Terms like that are reserved for the likes of Dalglish, Rush, Hansen and Barnes.
He's our best number 6 but he's not one of the best in the PL or Europe and he is an average Liverpool player. That is not a slight on Endo because we have had the likes of Souness, McMahon, Molby, Alonso, Gerrard, Mascherano that played in a similar position and they were above average.