Liverpool banter 247663


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05 Jul 2024 14:54:25
Interesting words from Slot in the presser today about formations and stuff. Pretty much admitted his system is adaptable and can't be pigeon holed to a single formation. Which is kind of what I expected given he's a product of the Dutch total football philosophy, but a lot of the analysts had driven home this idea that 4-2-3-1 was quite a set in stone thing which he brilliantly explained away. It did highlight that the players who are more versatile all rounders might have an advantage so that should be music to the ears of players like Trent, Gomez, Jones, Bajcetic, Gravenberch, Szoboszlai and Elliott who have never really nailed down a set position. To quote directly Slot said as follows.

"I was hoping if people looked at my team they would not say it is 4-2-3-1 or it is 4-3-3 or whatever formation you want to call it. I was hoping they would say there is a lot of freedom when they have the ball to take it in different positions. So sometimes it is a 4-2-3-1; sometimes it is a 4-1-4-1; sometimes we do build up with three. So there's a lot of 'freedom' when we have the ball. But when we don't have the ball there is not so much freedom. We want to be really aggressive and there's only one way, and that's everybody mostly keeps his position. "

I like that. Positional fluidity with the ball is very exciting to watch. But I also really like that he is very firm on setting up tight and structured defensively (although he didn't divulge what that formation that fixed position defensive approach is) . Also if he says his Feyenoord team used a "three" at times, that's exciting because I think we've all enjoyed Klopp's 4-3-3 and the squad's pretty much built around that. It's the first little glimpse into the mans brain, straight from the horses mouth instead of from tactical analysts and journalists. And it kind of proves a lot of it right, but also burns a lot of the theories. Someone like myself who has watched very little of Slot teams and only had the words of others to go by, I personally found it a really interesting insight.

Agree6 Disagree0

05 Jul 2024 15:25:05
Mk agree looking forward to seeing what Slot does with the team.

Will be interesting to see reaction if he inverts Trent as a full back. Because when Klopp did it people wanted Pep hung, drawn and quartered. And when it’s been mentioned slot doing it then there’s not been a peep.

05 Jul 2024 15:57:04
JK, poor Pep will probably still get strung up if Slot does it ??.

05 Jul 2024 17:48:15
The problem when Klopp inverted the FB there was no width or tempo so it will be interesting to see what Slot does with the wingers in particular Salah.

There should never be a blanket disdain for a particular aspect of a tactic, in this instance the inverted fullback, it is just one aspect of a particular tactic and style.

05 Jul 2024 17:52:22
He said he has his own ideas about Trent and Gakpo positions but wants to speak with them first does that mean Trent in centre midfield?

05 Jul 2024 17:55:31
Pep is also partly to blame for global warming. That got worse after his book came out.

05 Jul 2024 18:53:20
Aye it was very interesting indeed MK. We have a lot of players who should fit the "total football" system. It will be interesting to see how the players who appear not to be as adaptable get on.

05 Jul 2024 19:14:45
It means they will play where Slot and them agree on Colonel.

Personally, I think you and a lot of other fans are going to have to get use to the potential idea of Trent playing more in midfield.

Dont start reeling of reasons why he shouldn't, show him support instead. If that is the case, as I know Slots mind just as much as you do.

05 Jul 2024 21:30:40
When you watch the game live, you can see the inverted full back does nothing but congest the midfield against teams that sit deep. Quite often we saw, and I quote Luton away and Sheffield U at home as examples, as soon as we switched away from this system and attacked down the flanks, we had had more success.

05 Jul 2024 22:36:52
Drogie I was at the Sheff Utd game live.

Apologises I didn’t watch it twice on YouTube so can’t give you a definitive answer but we were awful all game.

We won from the keeper kicking the ball at Nunez and a Mac wonder strike regardless of an inverted full back or not.

05 Jul 2024 22:38:15
Plus to throw in Trent didn’t play against Sheff Utd.

06 Jul 2024 01:11:43
So we’ve moved on from 4231 to total football now ?

Might be best if we just wait and see guys. It might even be Slotball.

06 Jul 2024 06:34:49
FPF, what he described in his presser is Total Football. So the guy himself has just freely told us that. What are we waiting for? A neon sign? ? obviously it’ll be his twist on it, but the positional freedom he spent a couple of minutes talking about is literally the core value of the Dutch philosophy Johan Cruyff came up with that became known as “Total Football”. Pep Guardiola also followed this path as Cruyff instilled it at Barcelona, but Pep put his twist on it and in Spain it became known as Tiki-Taka. But it’s basically total football at the root of it. So I’m sure Slot has his own little unique ideas but it was very clear from that interview that we will be playing a version of Total Football next season. That’s a good thing as well by the way. It’s what the team that have won 6 out 7 of the last Premier League titles do. It’s also what Pep Lijnders wanted us to do as well which is why we had that weird hybrid of the counter pressing Klopp always talked about and the possession based football Lijnders believed in where Trent was inverting into midfield.

{Ed001's Note - Cruyff did not come up with it, nor did Rinus Michels before him, who Cruyff developed ideas from. The Hungarians were playing a variant of it in the 1950s. And there is no way of knowing if they got it from somewhere else before them.}

06 Jul 2024 07:01:01
Oh wow, that’s really interesting Ed001. Most mainstream stuff you read suggests the Dutch developed it in the 70’s. I had heard the Hungarians played incredible football back in the Puskas era but had no idea it was a prior version of Total football. Thank you for the info ?? given it is likely to play a part in our future under Slot, could you possibly do an article on the history of Total Football as far back as you’re aware? I think that would be a great read because I hadn’t even heard of Rinus Michels either!

{Ed001's Note - I have added that to the to do list for you. As far as I have found out, it was just given the label Total Football when the Dutch were using it. I am surprised you had never heard of Michels though. He was the coach that turned Ajax from a semi-pro minor team, that won nothing, into the biggest club (arguably anyway) in the Netherlands. It was him who brought the style into the mainstream consciousness.}

06 Jul 2024 07:38:58
Thank you! I’d just never really read up on the history of it mate. So when I’d heard so many people credit it to Cruyff and call it Dutch I just assumed they were all right. Immediately googled Michels though and it’s all there to be fair, saying he invented it. Which as you say, is still not true if the Hungarians used it before him! I look forward to the read, although i’m sure you’ve got about 100 on the list by now.

{Ed001's Note - I am pretty sure I mentioned it when I did that top 10 of international teams. It just shows how much notice you take of what I write! Or maybe I forgot to put that in? I don't know now. But that is one of those things that annoys me how Michels gets the credit for creating something that he actually refined. Bit like Guardiola gets the credit for a false 9, even though the Austrian international side played with a false 9 in the 1920s! It is a bit like reading that book Inverting the Pyramid. So many similar errors in there, where he was crediting someone with inventing things that were being done somewhere else a long time before then. It is understandable, because it is difficult to research back past the 1970s, when football became widely televised. But the key to the Mighty Magyars of Puskas etc, was the way the players interchanged position to confuse the opposition defences.}

06 Jul 2024 07:48:43
Answer to the formation he will adopt out of possession/ defending. His feynoord team defended in a 442. which is how arsenal defended out of possession all last season with Odegaard usually starting the press. And if the press fails they fall into a mid then low block.

i am personally torn on this approach specifically for Liverpool at anfield because our press out of possession under klopp was truly a sight to see making even the most composed of players crumble under pressure. And klopps home record was class. Unbeaten at anfield in 4 seasons.

And I put a lot of that down to how relentless and unpredictable we were with our pressing off the ball. Smothering teams into giving us the ball and forcing them to defend for their lives. I have a slight fear Having such a structured way of defending/ pressing will take away from the chaos that helps anfield erupt and swallow opposition teams.

Only a slight fear though. Because there's a big part of me that wants to see how we will look when we're not so vulnerable if that press fails, in away games specifically, which I feel has hindered us at times in klopp's tenure. Great presser from him tho. and here's to a long and successful reign :)

06 Jul 2024 09:47:55
Ed001, I can’t remember what I had for breakfast this morning! You did mention the Hungarian team but I don’t recall myself making the connection between their style of play and the modern Dutch systems. Might’ve been me missing the point though as I’m good at that! Just think, in 50 years they might credit Pep Lijnders for inverting full backs ?

MaiiDen, cheers for info mate. Defending in a 4-4-2 kind of tallies up with what a Feyenoord fan told me. Although Slot himself said he’d describe it as a 4-3-3 but he was keen to reiterate it’s not fixed. I guess ultimately the formation is less important than the actual tactical approach and the way he wants the players to operate and interchange. What I find most intriguing is how much his “DM” Wieffer contributed offensively. I’ve openly admitted I haven’t seen much of Slot’s teams but the offensive numbers he racked up gives me similar vibes to how Rodri always seems to get plenty of goals and assists because Pep has defenders step into midfield to free him up to attack. The Feyenoord fan I spoke with said Geertruida inverted into midfield so their actual midfielders could be more offensive. Slot will have some different ideas for our team no doubt though. I am even more buzzing for the first pre-season game now. I know what you mean about the gung-ho press making Anfield a proper fortress though. Teams got caught like a rabbit in headlights at times. I think we can trust the people making decisions at the club. Some of them are still the same as those who picked Klopp for us, so hopefully in another decades time we can say they nailed it again ??.

{Ed001's Note - Lijnders was certainly trying to claim the credit in some of his interviews, so it might happen.}

06 Jul 2024 10:11:19
I'd say Jimmy Hogan was the architect of possession based football or Total Football. He managed all over Europe pre and post WW2, including Hungary and Netherlands.

06 Jul 2024 11:13:56
South American teams have been doing it for a very long time as well ed001. Uruguay in the 20s Brasil in the 40s and 50s, Chile as well. But like you say, because those games weren't televised over here people are ignorant to the fact it was done somewhere else first.

You could actually make a good argument that Brasil downfall has been adopting the more rigid positional discipline of European football. Something which coaches like Fernando diniz are trying correct.

{Ed001's Note - I have made that argument myself in the past, when professional coaches have said to me the complete opposite and think it was improving them. I fail to see how Brazil have improved with the loss of their way of playing.}



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