29 Jul 2024 21:15:59
Just to start, This isint an FSG out post but rather a discussion.
How do you think FSG have got Liverpool fans to buy into there sell to buy, compete on a dime model of ownership?
They own the 4th most valuable club in world football, and 7th biggest revenue generator across the leagues (£150m more than Arsenal) and yet we are led to believe that we need to sell to buy! I’m not saying that I want a Chelsea approach to transfers but the reality is money and spend makes you competitive ( when done right) . We have been on the heels of City for years under Klopp and after we won the title never recruited from a place of strength which all the great teams do.
What do other people think?
{Ed025's Note - its a business in the end Dow-ney, they are not in it for the good of their health mate, personally i dont think FSG are any better or any worse that most owners mate (try having Farhad Moshiri), they have improved the ground, the new training facility has been built and you have bought quite a few top class and expensive players so its not all bad, much always wants more though and even though financially you are on a firm footing some supporters cant see the wood for the trees, the clamour for success weighs heavy for some and because of your history its understandable i suppose, but lets not think any team is entitled to be in the mix for major honours all the time as it goes in cycles, just my view of course and i could be wrong...but that has not happened since 1978 so i doubt it.. :)
29 Jul 2024 22:15:41
FSG are short sighted imo. Some seasons we have heavily invested and it brought success. Then once on top you can be more selective and spend less. Also success drives the income and profits. We need a few players atm to improve the first 11 and squad but unfortunately for whatever reason we won’t do it. So you just have to pray for a miracle that the players can stay fit and on form for the whole season.
{Ed025's Note - you still have a very good squad Mark and im sure there will be additions before the window closes, its not all bad mate..
29 Jul 2024 22:37:31
What is this sell to buy model people bang on about?
If you talk about the key players under Klopp through the main years of success (2018-2022) you’re talking about Alisson, Adrian, Trent, Matip, Konate, Gomez, Virgil, Robertson, Milner, Henderson, Lallana, Wijnaldum, Thiago, Fabinho, Keita, Shaqiri, Mane, Minamino, Firmino, Diaz, Ox, Salah, Origi, Sturridge and Jota. Other than the Carabao Cup last season that is basically the senior squad that won all of Klopp’s trophies.
Of those 25 players, 11 left for free which is hardly the actions of a club selling it’s best players to buy. 9 of them are still here now. The FIVE key players we sold for money were Mane, Hendo, Shaqiri, Minamino and Fabinho and we picked up probably about £100m for them which just about covers what we paid for Nunez and Endo.
So maybe people don’t care about the FSG sell to buy model because it’s a total myth. The last time we sold a player I didn’t want to lose was Coutinho in the 2017/ 2018 winter window. Before that it was Suarez in the 2014 summer window. Other than that we’ve only ever traded with squad players or players who were surplus to requirements. Even Suarez and Coutinho pretty much bullied their way out the club and left us with no choice but to sell. We don’t sell to buy, that’s just factually inaccurate if you look at our transfer history. We don’t spend recklessly but that is not the same as having no money to spend.
29 Jul 2024 23:05:03
We've been able to compete with Man City spending for the last few because of Klopp. I will hope that Slot can hit the ground running but realistically we cannot compete with other top teams who continue to spend big.
Just my opinion and I will stick by Slot as he deserves time to implement his plan. But Klopp was one of a kind to expect the same results would be madness.
29 Jul 2024 23:05:54
The things that we are able to see are just the numbers being reported, in the media etc. We don't know the exact numbers on other things; the opex and capex, loans and debts, the forecasts and the projections, plans and goals, and some more other things. Clubs are businesses. Apart from profits, one of the main goals is sustainability. I'd be over the moon if the club are buying expensive players, superstars, and lots of them. But if they dont, I won't call them short sighted. Maybe they are actually smart, decided not to based on reasons that we couldn't see.
29 Jul 2024 23:11:26
I agree with MK, this sell to buy talk is nonsense. Every football club has to sell players, we cannot just keep adding players but the notion that we have to sell to buy simply isn't true.
29 Jul 2024 23:57:51
I’m going to follow Ed002’s learned advice and not talk about the financials.
We honestly know jack all about the finances in the football club yet we pretend we have all the facts.
I go by results - not numbers on a page.
Plenty of clubs spend more and achieve a lot less.
30 Jul 2024 00:15:49
On a slightly different theme, I think the streamlining of the Academy and the bringing together of all age group at the one (new) training centre is / will be a big benefit for the club as is the expansion / modernisation of the ground with the improved match day revenue stream.
We have short memories and we were close to administration when FSG took over and, as has been mentioned in this thread we are now one of the most (market) valuable clubs in the world.
Off field FSG haven’t done that much wrong.
I think they suffer a bad press, primarily, because the club don’t spend £ 150m two or three times each transfer window, but, as has been said, FSG have nothing to do with transfers, so the criticism is being directed iat the wrong target (if your opinion that spending massive amounts of money on players is a mistake) .
I appreciate I’m apparently defending the club again but that’s because FSG and the club aren’t doing an awful lot wrong. We finished third in the most competitive (arguably) elite league in the world, having rebuilt our front three and midfield over the last year. We also have a number of young players coming through who will improve and make the team / squad better over the next two or three years - Baj, Bradley, Elliot, McConnell, Doak, Kone-Doherty, Koumas, Clark, Danns, Nyoni, Beck etc, etc. These kids will only get better, could save us (literally) hundreds of millions and will know how we play inside out having come through the Academy system.
Of course it would be brilliant to but players who will augment what we already have (and I have faith in the club that we will), but I’d prefer two or three of the type ‘right player at the right price’ rather than wasting millions on the next big thing who has played a dozen or so games in, for example, the Portuguese or French league,
30 Jul 2024 00:18:46
We literally haven’t sold to buy anyone for years.
30 Jul 2024 00:23:13
I think the sell to buy is in relation to space in the squad rather than anything else. At centre half I imagine we're looking for a Van Dijk successor if Gomez/ Sepp/ Konate were to stay. That's not a decent CB we want that's a generational one.
Forwards we need someone to leave, it looks like maybe Diaz otherwise where is the space? Salah will play pretty much every game, but we do need a replacement in but who do you get that's willing to sit on the bench mostly for a year before Salah goes.
Midfield we don't have a top class 6, Endo is a stop gap, Bajcetic is probably too young and coming back from basically a year off and Morton who knows how good he is. But two of those realistically need to go for there to be space and probably Gravenberch (which is kind of sad, he came to get games and hasn't really had a decent chance to stake a claim but given Slot plays with two 6's and two 10's there's not really a place for him unless he's converted. )
GK is another if Kelleher leaves. A few moving parts before we start adding players I imagine.
30 Jul 2024 04:18:38
and my general thoughts are that our approach to building the club and pay recruitment is about right.
We don't just throw money at big names every transfer window, we have an academy that is helping bring through youth players and, in this new era we're giving Slot a chance to coach the team and have input into where the gaps are.
that's all good stuff.
30 Jul 2024 04:32:34
In the modern game now sugar daddiws can't just pump money in. The club can only spend what it earns in profit.
We have a high wage bill and regularly spend top 3 in terms of agent fees. Either we lower the wage bill or increase the revenue by increasing ticket prices or getting more sponsors.
Fans really need to understand even if the richest man on earth bought the club it wouldn't change our spending Because the rules (currently) prevent it, though that will probably change in a year or so when they switch to the new system.
Would you rather be like united? Just throw 80m down the drain every season on antony and Sancho etc.
30 Jul 2024 05:20:21
Nevada - I think people on here do want us to be like united.
30 Jul 2024 06:58:08
Agree with mk and other posters about buy to sell, as ed2 has stated fsg don’t do the transfers and this comes up every transfer window. the club have stated there will be movement in this window but people still want us to sign every player that other clubs have bought . chill out people it’s a new manager who believe it or not will maybe want to see what he already has?
30 Jul 2024 07:09:54
I think Downey fans look at likes of moshiri at everton and say be careful what u wish for. I'd prefer to look at arsenal owners and the ambition and financial backing they have given an unproven manager year after year and there getting there rewards. i think I'm right in saying arsenal have played champions league football 1 season out of last 8,but continually spent heavily on squad over last 5or so years. Under fsg we will always be steadily run club but we won't win big trophies regularly, that's how I see it.
30 Jul 2024 08:06:31
Hang on Ed025, are you saying you’ve never been wrong since 1978 because that’s the year you’re born? Have I solved the riddle then mate haha.
{Ed025's Note - the year i got married actually Azk.. :)
30 Jul 2024 08:42:29
This is my point digger, nobody is advocating to be like Chelsea, Man Utd or Everton but showing a little ambition when you are on the cusp of winning titles would be nice! People have been tricked into thinking we are one bad purchase away from financial ruin and we don’t have the same resources as other clubs so can’t throw around money like ‘sugar daddy owners’, wake up we are a wealthy club with strong finances (top 7 in the world) and yet we spend like a mid table club. This is a result of year and years of FSG managing fan expectations and developing this notion of scarcity. If we as Liverpool FC can be at the peak of our power for the past 7/ 8 years and be challenging for every title available and still need to be tight fisted then our club is being mismanaged! Where’s the money.
30 Jul 2024 08:51:28
Good discussion that and a good read.
Under FSG we have challenged for the trophies.
Well realistically we were challenging for trophies under FSG during the Klopp reign. Before Klopp it wasn't anything to really write home about. Rogers took us close one season but fans seem to dislike him.
FSG certainly played their part alongside Klopp during those terrific 9 years.
Its now a new era and Klopp has gone so its over to FSG and Slot.
As it currently stands (this can change so quickly though) Slot will have to succeed with Klopps squad.
Which isn't a bad thing as its a pretty good squad.
But if he doesn't succeed then it will be interesting to see who takes the blame amongst the support.
30 Jul 2024 09:32:28
People on here using Arsenal as an example of owners backing the manager need to remember that when they built the Emirates there was a good decade of decline due to not spending on the team because they were paying off the new stadium. They are now in a situation where the stadium costs are sorted and they can address the lack of investment into the squad.
FSG are improving the stadium and facilities whilst still investing in the squad to avoid the decade of obscurity that Arsenal went through. That is why we aren't going to spend £150M-£200M on players every summer at the moment - we can't because we are thinking longer term and have invested a chunk of that budget into the stadium, training ground and youth setup to ensure we are still competitive in the future. Once these projects are paid for I suspect we will spend more on the squad.
As for this sell to buy nonsense - the last player we sold for anything worthwhile was Coutinho. The squad needs to be kept to a reasonable size. There has been times where we have had to move on oversees players to free up a slot before signing another but other than that it is just preventing the squad becoming bloated.
FSG are far from being bad owners. I know many 'supporters' would like some Arabs to waltz in and plunge billions into the club but it ain't happening.
30 Jul 2024 09:41:28
Downey - how are they showing no ambition? Because we haven’t signed anyone in a squad that is stacked in all positions?
30 Jul 2024 09:55:28
I think the lack of ambition stems from the seasons when we were maybe 1 good signing away from winning titles but opted against signings. Think back to the years we were decimated in defence and brought in the likes of Kabak or when our midfield needed revamping but got Melo! People will say oh Klopp didn’t want or Klopp wanted to wait for bla bla bla but u can’t tell me that Klopp wanted Melo or kabak. again the argument will be made that FSG don’t get involved in transfers etc but they absolutely are front row centre setting budgets and finances!
Again this isint an FSG out post or saying we have the worst owners in the league but I always get this feeling that as fans our expectations are being constantly managed by the club and ITK journos to set a tone that spending money on proven players ‘isint the Liverpool way’ when at times similar to what Arsenal are doing or have done with Rice, you see the best player available in the position you need and you go get them.
30 Jul 2024 10:22:23
Sorry but we are not stacked in all positions.
Defensive midfield for one.
30 Jul 2024 10:30:08
Football clubs "sell to buy". Literally, all of them. It's called balancing the books and your wage bill, something even Real Madrid do and have done for years.
30 Jul 2024 10:51:08
Endo, Bajcetic. We can debate quality for sure and I agree an upgrade would be ideal. But it’s not like we a) don’t have a CDM and b) it’d be as simple as just buying someone to come in and then to hell with those 2.
Dow-ney - when we had that defensive crisis it was a literal crisis. As in we were down all of our CBs and we were scraping the barrel. Yet we still had a Nat Phillips and a Rhys Williams. Was the solution to just spend 10s of millions in transfer fee, signing fee, agents fee and salary to cover a 4-5 month problem? Not for me and I’m glad the club didn’t see it that way either.
The argument seems to be at oue in the sky idealism vs the reality.
30 Jul 2024 10:52:47
I think downy has a good point, the lack of ambition when competing when you are the best of the best is plain to see. It’s a bit like rubbing salt into the wounds when we’ve been really in need of at times of desperation a CB (Nat Phillips days) a DM (since Fabinho left) and our owners go and buy other sporting ventures especially when we are a really healthy financial club.
Klopp backed slot from day one, it seems everyone and his dog knows we need a CB, DM and a salah replacement and yet we get fed the 'assessment' line when giving slot the most time to prepare for the new season would be the best thing to do as when new players are purchased they will have to settle in anyway.
I’m thinking a top 4 finish is a minimum requirement from our owners and if we win the league then great. I’d rather have ambition and a competitive owner because without klopp working miracles, we would have never even been up there most of the time. Yes city and their charges are disrespectful, but our owners if they’d have strengthened when at the top would have given us more success. There’s no entitlement here at all just an obvious observation over the Klopp reign.
This brings me onto journalists over recent times and the management of the view of the club through websites, papers and tv / YouTube. The most successful outlets for Liverpool news I get the feeling that if you don’t tow the line then you won’t get certain information or access throughout the season to players or transfer news / speculations and club matters.
If you don’t tow the line, people assume you want an oil Barron or you want the club to be in debt or run by a state but no we want as much success as we can because managers/ players aren’t around forever.
Contracts that have been left to run down is poor business and the amount of money that could have been recouped is ridiculous, but what the story is that Liverpool feel they 'don’t mind' contracts running down because they have given their value over time. People think this is ok just look at the money that we could have had with the free contracts that have left!
I’d give FSG a 7/10 as they have done a great job with the new stands, but I don't think they have the peak competitiveness at the successful times.
FSG should be doing more when winning things.
30 Jul 2024 11:26:11
People asking for Wharton he’s had 1 good year . is he better than baj?
Or is it because it would be a signing?
Not long ago baj was saving us a fortune in the transfer window but now he will be pushed down the pecking order for a new toy .
30 Jul 2024 11:46:25
so despite ed2 and other eds saying that FSG don't buy and sell the players, we still have this tired narrative about FSG being stingy, lacking ambition etc come up every transfer window?
Nat Phillips and the CBs? what does that even mean? he was 4th or 5th choice and played in an injury crisis.
No 6 that anti-FSG types think is good enough is the evidence that FSG or whoever lack ambition? what about attacking group that includes Mo, Gakpo, Jota, Nunez, Diaz? is there another attack in the league with that kind of depth?
what about the academy providing giving us Kelleher, Quansah, Bradley, Doak, Bajcetic, Trent, Elliot, Jones and others? does investing in our youth academy and empowering our coaches to bring them through not show ambition?
what about the capital investment?
What about all the years of having the leagues highest salaries, agent fees?
With the contracts running down, we don't even know what the final outcome is.
30 Jul 2024 11:52:37
Fatwallet, it's the way footie fandom works these days, Im afraid.
30 Jul 2024 12:02:52
100% agree AFP1, I fear we may look back over the Klopp era and see it is as a missed opportunity, not know I do! This isint about wanting a sugar daddy owner or being reckless like Utd or Chelsea but I feel people are torn to both polar opposites when there is a middle ground and it is not where we are currently at. Many people have said we aren’t a selling club we haven’t sold a player to buy players n x amount of years but look at our net spend over the klopp era and that tells a different story! Miles behind our direct competition for top 6 and titles in terms of net spend and yet we have the 3rd highest revenue in the league.
Of course the argument can always be made that it’s not about the amount of money you spend but rather what you do with it and that is relatively true but equally you can spend a lot of money and also spend it well just because Utd and Chelsea are crap it doesn’t mean we have to be!
Final though on this, we have good owners possibly a 7/ 10 as another poster graded them but I’m greedy I don’t start a race looking for a participation medal and I want the custodians of the club to have the same mentality and I just don’t think they do, they are business people who want to maximise return on investment ( such as developing the stadium as it is a fixed asset) and revenue maker) and unfortunately trophies themselves don’t generate a significant wealth and are largely inconsequential to the owners ( prize money between winner and runner up in premier league is approx £3m) .
30 Jul 2024 12:06:35
It’s no different than thinking Baj is going to be the saving grace when he has actually played less than 2 games as a DM in the PL.
30 Jul 2024 12:15:03
Olired it really boils my p***, there not looking at what we have at all.
30 Jul 2024 11:16:30
We were never close to administration.
30 Jul 2024 16:44:38
@Hessle there’s Endo, Baj, Morton, Macca Joe G who can play DM. That aside, which other positions are we short on? Genuine question.
30 Jul 2024 17:29:13
I think we were under Hicks and Gillett Irish.
{Ed001's Note - very much so, that is what made the takeover possible.}
31 Jul 2024 11:52:12
I assume you weren’t around before FSG took over @TIR.
31 Jul 2024 18:11:20
West I could play DM. Doesn't make me a decent player. Endo had a good season but there is far far better out there, we have baj as back up. The others shouldn't be anywhere near. I'd say with a better DM brought in last season even in January, and the purse strings loosened by fsg we might just of gone on to win the league. Just my opinion.