19 Apr 2021 20:53:20
Evening Ed's. Good first half from us, but sadly doesn't overrule the bigger issues surrounding our club at the moment.
Understand if you don't want to get into it too much but I wanted to try and get your take. Do you honestly think the ESL will go ahead, or do you think the threats from fans, players past and present, and governing bodies will be enough to bring it to a halt? Surely Liverpool wouldn't risk their rich UCL history or their place in the PL for this, would they? I also really hope Klopp doesn't walk.
Thanks guys :)
{Ed0666's Note - I said in the podcast yesterday that it wouldn’t happen as the backlash would be too severe. Nothing has transpired in the meantime for me to change my mind. I do believe the days of FSG are numbered as owners I don’t think they’ll survive this monumental money grab.
19 Apr 2021 22:18:01
Do you think the other owners will also be forced out, Ed066?
{Ed0666's Note - I do yes
19 Apr 2021 22:28:47
Hope they do piss off ed666.
{Ed0666's Note - I do too
19 Apr 2021 23:10:31
As an American and a lifelong Red Sox and Liverpool supporter, I hope you're right Ed. The first gaff or two can be considered naiveté, but after that it is pure arrogance and completely ignoring the global fanbase, but most especially the people in Liverpool. Unforgivable in my opinion.
{Ed0666's Note - there’s only so many chances you can give them and in my opinion they’ve abused and used all their credit.
20 Apr 2021 01:21:15
Get them out how? At the end of the day unless someone is willing to pay them the guts of 2bn for the club they're not going anywhere.
20 Apr 2021 05:15:32
Port red - What makes you think LFC will be worth 2bn once this is all said and done? The owners have not grasped that what they are attempting goes far beyond the monetary value of an organization. What they are doing is a brazen attempt to steal from the less affluent yet again, only this time their target is the one non-familial thing we truly love.
Football, for many, is the thread that knits the very fabric of the social relationships of millions. I disagree with our amazing manager’s opinion that “Football is the most important of the least important things” - it deserves far greater recognition than that. It encompasses many of the thoughts, worries and hopes of the masses and, though it is not a matter of life and death, football provides real meaning to the days of entire fanbases.
The fans are the one group that can prevent the appalling Super League from going ahead, way beyond what any feeble legal pathways can achieve. Do not fill the stadiums, do not buy the £100 shirts, do not tune in to watch our games. The kleptomaniacs who seek to take everything we have and cherish will soon get the message.
John Henry will never be welcomed nor admired by Liverpool fans again. He has shown that to him our 129-year history, in comparison to the profits he craves, means absolutely nothing.
19 Apr 2021 23:51:09
Ed001, you state the FSG days are numbered, but who would be looking or in a position to buy them out? There 300m gamble has paid of to the tune that what we are worth 1.1billion now?
{Ed001's Note - we may be worth that, but we are also massively in debt, and a takeover would have to pay them off. But FSG's tenure is now untenable. Not one real fan will ever back them again, they have shown utter contempt for us fans.}
20 Apr 2021 07:37:56
Morning Ed001, what’s the reaction on the other pages ( clubs that have said they want the super league ) , I know United fans are anti glazer but what about city, Chelsea etc do they want their owners gone?
{Ed001's Note - the City page is as packed as the stadiums are at the moment, so there is never a reaction on there to anything. The sites that do have traffic are all united in their opposition to the proposal. The closest to agreeing with it is those of teams outside the top 6 saying they should all f off, in essence. I have see one person posting in favour across all the sites, and that is on here. No real football fan wants this crap.}
20 Apr 2021 07:48:13
That doesn’t surprise me with City lol. I’m just not sure where we go from here and who we would get to take over the club. The whole game is now based on a business model, even more so than when the PL was introduced 30 odd years ago.
{Ed001's Note - there will always be people who would want to, the issue is finding people who can afford to. It will probably have to be a fan group of some kind that does it.}
20 Apr 2021 08:11:04
Glad fans can now see what FSG have always been about, can't leave soon enough.
20 Apr 2021 08:23:04
So let's say new owners buy LFC. what on earth makes people think k that the owners will come I and willfully choose to walk away from the negotiating table with these elite European clubs?
The world's top clubs are all discussing this. People need to get this through their skulls.
{Ed001's Note - the only way to stop it is if a fans' group owns 51% or more.}
20 Apr 2021 09:52:49
I posted yesterday about 51% fan ownership and ed002 said there’s no chance. It’s sad and depressing to know that the ship has probably sailed in that respect.
20 Apr 2021 09:46:48
Ed’s- a lot of the reports mainly Sky saying this will begin from next season, but I know from comments on here it’s suggested this will be from 2024 or later. Do they have any concrete date when this proposal would begin.
{Ed002's Note - There is no concrete date as there are some significant legal issues to be addressed. In theory 2024 is the first realistic oppotunity to do anything without at least that one hurdle.}
20 Apr 2021 15:32:49
OK, so I'm going to be controversial here and play a bit of 'devil's advocate. '
I want to make it clear though - at no point am i going to say that i agree with this decision, nor that it is motivated by anything other than greed and I am also not going to disagree with the monumental impact this is going to have on the game and particularly the grass roots game, aspirations and dreams of the young or the fact that football is a game that should be accessible to everyone. I have a little boy who is obsessed (brainwashed!? ) with becoming the next mo Salah and who nloves Liverpool and plays eagerly several times a week and I think about the impact this might have on him. So please don't shoot me down personally - I am just going to set out the other side as i see it.
The question I have here is - what did we think was going to happen? The sickness of greed set in to the game many years ago - arguably with the creation of the EPL and the ridiculous sums being paid out for telvised rights. As soon as you start paying footballers the eye-watering sums they get paid each week, the slippery road to big bucks and billionaires is the only option available to you. The game was lost in this fashion a long time ago.
In the US, basketball went through a similar situation. they have a league there where teams are not 'relegated' and 'promoted' but have stable structure, championship and a hell of a lot of money floating around and people still watch it, like the games, fans turn out and they have an atractive and marketable product. It hasn't stopped kids shooting hoops, aspiring to be the next Michael Jordan or Steph Curry nor has ot taken money away from the college game which has itself become financially stellar in its own right. It's just different is all.
Fans across the world - whether we like it or not here in Blighty as rock solid Liverpool fans - want to see the 'big games'. There is excitement when Barcelona play Liverpool or Juventus play United or when Man City lose to PSG. And in a business sense it works - the money stays with the big teams who are encouraged to spend within the league where the best players are, but there is a filter down, knock-on effect for other clubs and the ESL will still offer a chance to them to be part of the big boys club. Shareholders are happy because there is the option of financial stability and there is no longer the risk of punitive financial action if the team doesn't do well - so a key risk variable for business sustainability is removed - therefore enhancing the protection for tyhe longevity of the club and less relaiance on debt going forward. It makes sense from a business/ financial perspective and we see that in the share price increase of some of the 'dirty dozen' today.
The problem is that it is a business decision and fans might stiull be clinging on to the belief that modern elite football is something other than a big business. But frankly, that notion is as dead as a famous parrot and has been for a long time. We've just been kidding ourselves that it is anything different.
Once the big sums, the big business and the 'brand product' became more important than the game (which happened a long time ago), the situation we are in now was always an inevitability and there is little merit in complaining about it now. Wouldn't you rather be part of an inevitable future as a pioneer, leading the pack with a strong negotiating hand for arguing for change in existing structures if it comes to that, than not being at the party at all?
That was a rhetorical question. I would rather be a fan of a club which respected its history, its origins, its fans, its staff and went through a process of consultation, agreement and formed a powerful consensus view which helped shape the landscape - ironically, we have created that for everyone else who have been so united in their criticism of our plans! - than be led by the natural evolution of capitalism and market forces. But this was seeded a hell of a long time ago and maybe we all need to wake up to the notion that this is just how big business works. And even we stopped being a local club for local folk way before this decision wwas made and are just a big business which views fans and even our history as a data-rich commodity.
It doesn't feel nice but that's what it is.
God, I've depressed myself. Bring back the days when we played 'Total Network Solutions. ' I was at that game. I think Stevie G scored a hatrick.
Good times.
20 Apr 2021 16:18:30
I'm not having a go but if you think this is the right model for you and your idea of sport then you can always watch the mls.
20 Apr 2021 16:54:05
Thanks Vermiculo - I'd just reference the second line of my 'missive' where I said 'at no point am I going to say i agree with the decision. ' But I think it's important to understand it.
20 Apr 2021 17:38:51
I think you make good points RedFlag. I think this is a terrible idea also, but there's a reason all the big clubs have agreed, and it's not because their completely ignorant of the fans feelings or beastly devils. It's business.
I also wonder why the UCL didn't take this threat more seriously or do more than restructure the competition. To be honest, I don't have any personal attachment to the UCL (I love the competition and seeing Liverpool playing in it, but do I feel any loyalty to the actual UCL? Not really. ) Maybe I'm alone here, but because of that I wonder if there's a way the ESL or the UCL could be restructured to be more appealing to both the fans and the owners? Maybe the "big clubs" could be given more enduring spots that wouldn't guarantee them a spot but would allow them to stay after a year or two of poor results. Obviously the owners want more financial incentive (you have to wonder why the UCL doesn't pay clubs more; if anything the ESL has shown that clubs could be making more than they currently are) and more security for their investment (not qualifying now means not long loss of revenue but that recruiting players becomes more difficult making future qualification harder) .
Finally, just want to reiterate that I am not at all in favor of the ESL, but I do think it's important to see both sides when trying to look for solutions. One final question: why does the premier league care about ESL? Do they feel threatened that teams will eventually leave altogether (because I find that hard to believe)? Are they just trying to protect the integrity of football? Or are they just cozy with UEFA?
{Ed002's Note - They have engaged with others about options and they have also just made changes to the structure. Liverpool and Manchester United are not interested in engaging with them, they want power, control and more money and to replace the CL. They did not engage or talk to them at all. Yes they are concerned about the 21 "eleite" clubs, or in all probability 16, leaving at some point.}
20 Apr 2021 17:56:02
I’d agree with that red flag and I’d add this. How many times have fans asked questions about us signing Mbappe? Haaland? Messi? I’ve probably seen hundreds on this site alone.
Well you all got your wish. This is what is needed if you are going to sign players of that ilk. You can spend billions of pounds knowing that there is zero chance of it all going belly up. If it doesn’t work you just finish bottom and start again next season. Happy days! From a business sense the ESL is a no brainer.
We as fans though remember the days when we went to matches with our parents or grandparents and we feel that the club is part of us. Which it absolutely is!
The problem is that the club we went to see with our parents or grandparents doesn’t exist anymore and hasn’t done for 30 years.
This is a global brand now, Liverpool FC only by name. It’s what we wanted we can’t moan! We’ve asked for the club to spend, spend, spend! To be successful! Well here you go, this is what success looks like.
I like most people are sickened by the way the game has gone but this started as soon as we allowed the premier league and Sky to take over the game.
20 Apr 2021 17:58:05
If this happens I'll be done watching Liverpool which is 40 years and counting. But, I find it amusing watching the PL and pundits squirm at this development. They are all very well off because of the PL being formed. That was the first big step in this direction. Unbelievable hypocrisy from the likes of Neville. All he's thinking is "how will this impact my sky salary? " Formation of the PL was a huge money grab by owners, players and the tv providers. Let's hit the clubs and the PL where it hurts and stop watching matches. Let them play in empty stadiums next year and i mean all 20 clubs. Hit the breakaway clubs in the pocket and do the same w the PL clubs until they give the game back to their rightful owners: the fans. No reason to be making the money they make. I'll b cancelling my tv subscriptions and i won't watch another match if this goes ahead.
20 Apr 2021 18:27:20
I think that's a brilliant post redflag. Couple of good replies in there as well. In my opinion sums it up perfectly. As a business decision, it is a fantastic one for the shareholders and those financially linked to the club/ s. Risk free and massive returns. Of course the majority in that position with little emotional link to the club would go for it.
From a sporting integrity or a fan perspective who want to see competition, it's awful and will/ has killed the sport. Unfortunately, the leading role our owners have played hurts the most.
20 Apr 2021 18:27:45
Thanks for the reply Ed. I didn't know Liverpool and MU refused to discuss UCL changes. It makes this whole situation even more irritating. I know the answer is money, but I just don't see why any clubs would look to leave their domestic league. It seems crazy.
20 Apr 2021 19:05:25
I'm not sure the Liverpool and Unt owners can easily back down from it now having driven the agenda, the damage is done. Will everyone just accept us back with open arms? No ramifications? They have actively opened legal proceedings to block attempts to stop it happening, I'm not sure it's forgivable.