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25 Apr 2021 00:39:50
Hi Ed2 - are you able to explain what Perez means by the ESL saving football. Was there a strategy plan for the ESL to support clubs outside the 12?

{Ed002's Note - What he means, as I have explained repeatedly over many years, is that football needs to decide what sort of restructuring is required. Putting aside any "breakaway" or counter proposal, my fears have always been the vast number of professional clubs there are in England well below the Premier League. I hold a reasonably strong view in terms of the need to restructure football in Europe in any case. Previously I have said that the eventual "breakaway pan-European league" would force the restructuring of many of the national leagues, possibly resulting in a British league with perhaps only a couple of professional tiers and then regionalised amateur leagues below that. Now we have a situation that will change the financial paradigm and may make clubs and authorities look at the situation with lower tier sides regardless.

Financially I do not see that so many professional sides can be sustained within the sport which, like it or not, will see more and more money going in to the highest levels of the game. Governments will ensure that grassroots sport get funding but everything in the middle (Southern, Northern, Conference, Division 2, Scottish Divisions 1-3, League of Wales will not get the funding needed to continue on any sort of professional basis. For me, clubs should already recognise this and put their efforts in to getting their finances in order to see if they can make it to a British professional league that will need to flourish without perhaps six sides that have eventually gone down the pan-European route - and have gone for good (it would be two or perhaps three initially) or even separation from the Premier League and Championship.

Clubs like Accrington Stanley will need to carry on as amateurs or face extinction (yet again) like Bury. Recently Hartlepool has been struggling - again it needs to adapt. The mighty Third Lanark have started their long journey back to the top - it can be done. These are all proud clubs with a history.

The game has changed significantly and will continue to do so whether the supporters of certain clubs like it or not. Football at the highest level is big business and attracts the sponsorship it does because the sponsors wish to tap in to the disposable income of the fans and ride the back of the advertising that flows naturally from the success some clubs achieve. Long gone are the days of the cloth-capped, hobnailed-booted, chimney sweep making his way, rattle in hand, to cheer on his team at Anfield on a Saturday afternoon. I have explained that there will be changes, probably within the next 8 to 10 years, which will force the restructuring of all of the leagues in Europe and likely do away with the likes of UEFA. You will have the opportunity to see the likes of Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Juventus and the other major European sides play in week-on-week regular competition at The Emirates, St James Park, Stamford Bridge or wherever. Fans of the sides who take the plunge will have the opportunity to visit cities such as Milan, Barcelona, Munich, etc. every couple of weeks to watch their team play. If you want to don your cloth cap, have a pint of wallop with your chums before going off to the local match through the grim, wet and cobbled streets of the Northwest of England where there is smog, dead & dying pit ponies laying on the street and only chips and fried curry to eat., perhaps one of the sides from the suburbs will have survived so the Liverpool and Everton supporters can go and watch them?

This will be a case of getting with the game. I will try to refer to this as the "Post Apocalyptic Zombie Scenario" from now on.}

Agree1 Disagree0

25 Apr 2021 09:05:23
Pint of wallop absolutely love that Ed you’d want to trade mark that it’s brilliant my friend!
1/ pint of wallop
2/ RTFP.

25 Apr 2021 09:28:27
Classic ed002 response so clinical and fascinating to read yet with a hint of comedy to make us chuckle
Up the pool.

25 Apr 2021 09:48:22
If there is little to no support for such restructuring from fans then can is realistically move forward and be a success? In the UK were already in another economic slide due to C.V. and being compounded further by Brexit, I don’t think the sort of money required to follow ones team with the structure you’re suggesting is there for most. Now if it was 90% sponsors/ affiliates/ etc attending I could well imagine that but it is an incredibly dystopian, ugly face of what football could be. I understand it is a business now but there are still huge swathes of fans who are very attached to their clubs, not to mention political considerations which may come into play (like involvement of national governments) if the uproar is significant enough. I would be surprised if such proposals and restructuring went ahead as, though there are wealthy individuals in favor of such things, there is little of any support from fans - I’m not sure I’ve heard much from anyone in favor, the closest I’ve heard is ‘we should join so we don’t get left behind’ but even those sentiments are rare.

I know your understanding of the game, and the ins and outs behind closed doors, are far superior to mine, but in this instance Ed I truly hope your predictions/ expectations are wrong.

All the best Ed, also thanks for the time and effort you spend giving us your knowledge, there has been a lot of talk and discussion recently and your insights are greatly appreciated.

{Ed002's Note - It is nothing to do with COVID-19 nor BREXIT. These proposals have been around since long before both. Whether the fans like it or not, more clubs will go out of business like Bury if nothing is done.}

25 Apr 2021 09:51:10
I know you are correct Ed and football must change. But what trophies will the elite sides play for? IMO after a couple of years of watching the same sides play each other the atmosphere will die. I might move more and more corporate but it will become totally boring.

{Ed002's Note - The "elite" group of clubs includes 21 sides so it won't be the same sides every week.}

25 Apr 2021 10:51:32
I’m inclined to agree with you Ed002 on this, I can see the benefits and disadvantages on both sides .
I don’t necessarily want it to happen but I’d rather Liverpool were in than out if it does.

25 Apr 2021 11:59:57
I don’t doubt a word of what ed2 says but it is heartbreaking to read. It seems as though the game has to be restructured because of the greed at the very top of the pyramid and I include UEFA and FIFA in that. Perez alluded to the fact that the big clubs are struggling financially but what I don’t understand is why they won’t just face the exact same fate in say another 20years, as surely all that will happen by generating more money is the players, agents, hangers on etc will all just demand more again and the same problems exists just with higher sums involved. That doesn’t seem to answer to the problem to me, just kicking the problem down the line to the detriment of the sport its self?

{Ed002's Note - Football has to naturally evolve, as it did with the Premier Leagues and Champions League.}

25 Apr 2021 13:29:39
And who exactly can afford milan on a Wednesday with Barcelona away on Saturday week in week out. It won't be long until it only home fans ie NFL.

{Ed002's Note - I suspect you don't understand the plan.}

25 Apr 2021 14:52:39
Thanks ed, regards your comment -

"I have explained that there will be changes, probably within the next 8 to 10 years, which will force the restructuring of all of the leagues in Europe and likely do away with the likes of UEFA"

You've also. mentioned that the key difference between ESL and the elite 22 clubs is that ESL hasn't worked with UEFA. Can I assume then that if UEFA are at the table with the elite clubs, that they have a sense of inevitability that their time will be coming to an over the next decade? I just wonder what the purpose. of these clubs negotiating ei UEFA is if the end game is breaking them up.

{Ed002's Note - I think that is a reasonably fair description. UEFA coming to the table is with the obejective of being in control, or at the very least maintaining their position as the controlling body. But changes need to be made and this recent attempt falls far short of expectations and has dome more harm than good.}

25 Apr 2021 14:54:09
Also ed2, reminded myself to tell you this - I posted your detailed post about ESL to a fan page in NZ. One member replied back saying he went to Anfield regularly 40 years ago and never went cloth-capped. Lol I don't know what this means but thought I'd pass it on :p.

{Ed002's Note - It means he probably has loads of illegitimate if he failed to take protection.}

25 Apr 2021 16:51:47
I’ll be honest Ed. I’ve got no time for a pint of lukewarm wallop or whatever vile brown booze the campaign for real ale prefer for that matter, boring bearded trainspotters that they are. So I’m all for weekend trips to Bavaria, Turin, Milan, Budapest, Bruges, Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Prague, Paris, Lyon, Milan, Rome, Madrid, etc when it eventually happens. Just needs to be done better than this last laughable effort.

25 Apr 2021 20:43:47
Newsflash! Fans will not put up with what Ed002 is talking about. We have just witnessed that. So let’s put that to bed.
I’m sure Eds 02 information is correct however that doesn’t mean it will happen. How can it? If there is some sort of European elite/ super / pan / bull league then fans will be marginalised or grouped into the few that can afford and the few that cannot.

Thanks for your very elitist view of the working class game Ed’s but your comments are out of of touch. The working class has evolved and just because we don’t wear cloth caps and drink a pint of wallop doesn’t mean that we don’t work for the week then walk to the game and have a pint on the way. This happens all over the country at every club week in week out.
The event this week prove your view of the fans the game are way off the mark.
Despite the best efforts of money and greed football remains the people game. Without the people there is no product no game.
So thank you sir but I think you need to re examine your theory.

{Ed002's Note - So what has happened to disprove what I have said?}

26 Apr 2021 04:08:55
I started going to matches in around 1959. The European Super League has been kicking around the boardroom since the mid-1960s.

In the time I’ve been a fan, society has changed enormously. If you look at what has happened with other social organisations, such as social clubs and hobby clubs and churches they’ve had to adapt or go bust. All organisations have followed similar paths. We no longer tolerate sleepy little organisations that scrape by on charity or luck – everything is properly commercialised. The pattern repeats all over society… to simplify it, if a club needs 100 active members to be viable, two clubs with 80 members will be forced to merge – but the new organisation won’t have 160 members because a significant number won’t follow the new organisation. In essence the choices diminish at the same time as tickets/ membership gets dearer.
The football business model is entirely different, but the outcomes are similar.
When we were forced to go all seater, the days of wandering up every other Saturday and paying three bob to see a match (15p for you youngsters) went for ever. Instead of a damp step, there was a plastic seat and instead of pence it became pounds to use that same space. Last time I went to a game it cost best part of £30 to sit where the boys pen used to be and I used to pay 9d (4.5p) to watch from there.
The football team I went as a lad to see and support became a real force – then it became a brand – then became an International big deal brand; And although my support is unquestionable and always will be – it’s hard to find much “Liverpool” about Liverpool FC
Instead of local Dad and Lads being the main fan base, it’s now the clubs international fan base that the clubs serve. The population churn under Mrs T resulted in people going where the jobs were. So now there are more of us supporters that live outside the city than are in the city.

The international fan base for teams like Liverpool and Man Utd dwarfs the UK based fan numbers and ultimately are more important financially to the clubs.
I’m priced out. I can’t afford to go to games now, but there are so many people to take my place. People who can afford to buy the expensive corporate hospitality deals, Fans have moaned about the day-trippers to Anfield and Old Trafford for decades, but that is a huge income stream – and the “Anfield Experience” fan is probably the future.
If anyone thinks that the movers and shakers of football MUST take notice of fans wishes, you are sadly mistaken. This year’s Training Ground Premiership shows that they can to a bigger degree than you’d think get by without the diehard match going fans.
Football is a business; the Americans consider them franchises and milk them for everything they can. And the thing that not many people have noticed is that the franchise is for a competitor’s place in a League, NOT for a team from a specific town or city. If the owners consider that there is some strategic advantage in moving the franchise to another city – They will. It’s been done several times in the USA and although the financial set-up was different, Wimbledon moved to become MK Dons.

Fan ownership is an attractive option, but how would that happen? And why? Some of us considered this when Hicks and Gillette were the owners. We couldn’t see how it could be done mostly because a lot of people would not be able to afford to buy a share.
Short of some sort of government sponsored compulsory purchase, how are the fans going to get control?
Wimbledon fans did it, reclaimed their club and got it climbing the pyramid. United of Manchester and AFC Liverpool are promising start-ups and probably the only way that fans could control their hometown club – but that will take decades….

26 Apr 2021 11:36:44
The world categorically said no to a super league through protests, governments and media outlets. Within 48 hours the computation was announced and retracted.

Surely the only feasible conclusion is that this (or anything like it) will not happen as a project.

Football as a whole may need to change and adapt but not like this. The answer will and should never be that the smaller clubs become even more obsolete tim they already are and richer clubs should get richer. That would be just be rubbish. A decision based on greed.
If it is to be shaken up it should be to keep as many clubs involved as possible. A bottom up approach. Because you know what. It means something to communities not 50 years ago. Now. It’s something that gives people an identity a focus. Something to bloody do!

26 Apr 2021 12:57:28
In my opinion the only reason the super league isn’t going through is because the clubs decided that the immediate consequences were worse than the potential gains they intended to make. Ed talks of a completely different culture to where we are today. He talks of a time when people hop around the continent watching their team week in week out this time is not aimed at us. The owners aren’t interested in the race to the bottom that the current set of fans demand. They will alienate and push and through the passage of time there will be less and less of the previous generation of fan until all that it left are the ones that can afford what they want to sell us. They will break away they will not care about being banned from the premier league they will create something that they want and they have learned the cards that uefa and fifa and the fa and the government hold. They know now that they will fight it and what means they will use to fight it. Once the clubs spoken about join the super league the people that stay will be the ones you can go and support if you want to see the lads with a pint of wallop the team name might be Merseyside reds or tranmere but that’s what will be left for you if you do not stick with what’s on offer from lfc. The owners will not care. The protests won’t matter. Being kicked out the premier league won’t matter. No traditional fans in the stadium won’t matter. It will be a different sport but the old one will be available to you in the form of whatever is left behind and picking a club from that.

26 Apr 2021 13:46:04
How can any of your post hold any weight when we have just seen a prime minister, managers and players, fans and pundits all reject it. You have clearly learned nothing from the past week. Club owners don’t get to decide the fate of football and there is no appetite for an elite European league. Why? Because most fans cannot afford the money or the time to go trudging around Europe on a weekly basis!
How are you still convinced football will go this way. The question is been emphatically answered with a resounding NO! Up the pint of wallop!

27 Apr 2021 00:45:25
The point is that there is more than enough money in football for everyone to have a space at the table. The fact that the few don't want to share with the many is a very old story that continues to this day.

Ed.002, everything you say has a good chance of coming true, I don't doubt it. The problem is, the way you present it is as if there is not enough to go around. Suggesting that there is no way way half of the clubs in the UK can survive. They could if we shared more. You are at times brutally honest about us fans, how about that same acerbic withering wit of yours being directed at this. They (those at the top table, boardrooms, Uefa, FIFA, Elite, etc. ) are in it for themselves. Not the development of football.

As I say, I don't doubt what you say. I appreciate the Information. I do think you are coming at this from a certain angle though. Thank you.

27 Apr 2021 08:27:55
Redman - your lack of vision is a little embarrassing here man. All that happened is that they learned. They've learned that they won't be allowed to partially break away so they need to be prepared with a full new league. They've learned that they need to get major broadcasters signed up before announcing to temper the barrage of criticism. They've learned that they need to have a more polished proposal locked down. Maybe that waiting until uefa piss everyone off first before announcing anything. They will do it again, and again and again if need be until eventually the backlash just isn't there.

27 Apr 2021 15:17:01
The ESL will come. It is only a matter of when not if. The maths say so. Currently LFC and others can expect about £250m to £300m for winning the EPL and the champions league for TV companies.
We have depending on who you ask somewhere between 100million and 600 million fans worldwide. Similar figures are estimated for Utd Barca, Real Madrid, and most of the other dirty dozen clubs. On that basis LFC v Man U could attract easily 500million tv fans worldwide. At £10 per viewer via pay per view this would bring in £5 billion pounds for one game. This is what will happen in the future and why none of the greedy owners will sell at the moment
I also believe quite frighteningly that if too much pressure is brought to hear to stop it, the owners will just move the club's to places which will accept it. LFC to Boston, Utd to Tampa Bay Arsenal to L. A. for example.

{Ed001's Note - they won't be moved any time soon, that is not going to happen.}

27 Apr 2021 21:27:03
Hjikle the only lack of vision or grasp of reality was that of Perez and the other snakes. They embarrassed themselves in front of a world audience.
I think what Perez and maybe you possibly Ed’s 02 fail to grasp is that football does in fact have a soul. it belongs to the fans.
Ed2 jokes (I hope ) about the good old days. They still exists in an evolved modern day form. This is the basis on which the game is built and makes money from. The working masses make up the money which is pumped into the game. The owners and broadcasters make the profits but without the blessing and participation of the fans their product has zero value.
If there is anything to learn it’s that a handful old white wealthy men don’t get decide what happens to the game.
Of course there will be variations and evolutions to competitions but not a cull anywhere near the magnitude of what has been proposed. I really hope the opposite happens and other models are looked at to keep as many clubs as possible competitive and secure.
It’s interesting that the German clubs wanted nothing to do with it.

28 Apr 2021 00:31:56
Redman football does not belong to the fans and it hasn’t for the last 30 years or more. This breakaway will happen as soon as they can get all of their ducks in a row.
There will be a backlash from the working class fans and others but do you know what? They won’t care because it’s those fans they are trying to get rid of.
They don’t want the types that have that pint of ‘wallop’ on the way to the match and a pie at half time. They want the types who can spend hundreds if not thousands on a hospitality ticket and spend fortunes in the club shop.
This isn’t new it’s been happening for years in front of our eyes! We all loved the redevelopment of Anfield but that was done to get more hospitality seating.
Like Ed says it’s big business now and you either move with the times or find another team to support.

{Ed0666's Note - there’s are plenty of working class that can afford the hospitality tickets that will boycott football once this breakaway league happens. I’m not ashamed to admit that lately every time I’ve been to Anfield to watch the game (pre-pandemic) I’ve watched from hospitality because let’s face it it’s a more enjoyable experience but that won’t stop me from walking away from football once the lunatics take over the asylum. And I’ve been a Liverpool fan going on 45 odd years. Have been home and away all over Europe to watch my team. The point I’m making is don’t be too sure football doesent lose major gravitas once the breakaway league transpires because there will be a lot of disillusioned fans who would walk away than see their beloved sport prosituted.

28 Apr 2021 17:20:13
You explained it better than I did Ed’s football will loose gravitas.
If the product is messed with to much it becomes less valuable. Your right Becker football doesn’t belong to the fans but we are it’s customers. It’s logical that customers need to be kept happy to keep buying.
The large majority of society and football fans are working and lower middle class who don’t have thousands to spend on football. Collectively we make football worth billions hence the reason fan power is stronger than many on here think.
Terms like “move with the times” or football needs to evolve” is just another way of saying make the owners and broadcasters more money. I don’t think we should have it! Football should evolve for the right reasons not those based on greed.







 

 

 
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