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17 Nov 2019 17:21:23
Ed001, as a group we've discussed previously at how lost we look without Firmino in that front 3. We've previously used Salah, Origi and Mane up top but they don't play the game in the same way.

My question is do you think during the busy winter period Ox could play the role at times when Firmino needs to be rested?

He seems to have recently improved his finishing, can find a pass, has a good turn of pace and retains the ball well. I'm not as well versed in football as some though and could be mistaken but just wanted your opinion!


{Ed001's Note - no, it is not the way he plays at all.}

1.) 17 Nov 2019 17:36:50
Thanks Ed, I confess to not having enough knowledge to understand the nuances each position in our setup.

{Ed001's Note - I can see what your thinking, but I just can't see it suiting him. Needs someone who is used to holding the ball up.}

2.) 17 Nov 2019 18:18:31
We don't look lost without Firmino. We won number 6 without him. Mane is by far the main man, without Mane we would not have won the cl and we would have a lot less points over the last 12 months. When Firmino plays well we do look a better team but his good games are not frequent enough. I know goals are not what he is known for but he really does need to improve his finishing, Trent and Mane are creating numerous chances that Firmino is squadering.

When there is 10 minutes left in a tight match which players do you look to win us a game? Firmino is not near the top of the list.

List of most important players


3.) 17 Nov 2019 19:25:16
The problem is when one of the front 3 is missing, we rotate the other 2 and all the system is messed up.
Say if Firmino is missing, we should just put origi upfront. Instead we move Salah through the middle, Mane swaps sides, and Divok is left out wide looking like a lost man.
When one is missing it then feels like they're all missing.

{Ed002's Note - Once Klopp goes maybe the new coach will fix this problem for you.}

4.) 17 Nov 2019 19:26:05
"We won number 6 without him"

What are you talking about? Firmino played nearly 60 minutes in the final?

Firmino is the embodiment of this Liverpool team, he adds so much to our game that probably only Salah and VVD match ho, for influence.

It amazes me how many Liverpool fans still don't see how important he is to the way we play.

5.) 17 Nov 2019 19:41:16
Sorry Mark but pointing to one game against purs does not prove your point. Our system does not work without Firmino.

I see no need to list an order of importance. Simply our team is weaker without any of those players in our starting lineup.

6.) 17 Nov 2019 20:00:57
What about the Barcelona home game? He didn't touch the ball in the final.

Red Dawn are you trying to tell me Firmino is more important than Mane? Do me a favour. There is no comparison, Mane is a match winner and a points getter. Firmino is a good player but we have many better players.

7.) 17 Nov 2019 20:14:35
Mark, is Firmino in our best 11? If so, he is as important as any other member of our best 11.

8.) 17 Nov 2019 20:48:39
Mark sorry BUT I ain't buying your argument regarding Bobbie. Even those in the media this season have now caught up with how important and dare I say, indispensable Bobbie is and ALWAYS has been for us. Did you hear how Jose, Keane and Souness were gushing about him after the City game? I also heard from Ed01 here where he stated that Pep loves Bpobbie and wishes he had him at City cos he does all the things that Aguero and Jesus can't and won't do. Also for good measure without Bobbie, there is NO Mane or Salah cos he creates space for them to flourish due to his immense repertoire and selflessness. Even Jose and Kompany said so or are they mugs too?

You using isolated situations or games where Bobbie either did not play (both Bar ca games) or the final vs Spurs (Where he was clearly NOT fit to play at full pelt) is a sign that your argument is pretty weak on the merits, IMO. Isolated incidents are outliers. YOu have to consider Bobbie's whole body of work over time.

Oh and by the way, we NEVER won no. 6 w/ o Bobbie. Why? Had he not come off the bench with one good eye, and scored the 3rd goal vs PSG, we don't even get a chance to get out of the group vs Napoli. Bobbie IS the Klopp system n Klopp has said so many times BUT of course, you know more about his system than the man himself.

9.) 17 Nov 2019 20:54:10
fair enough Ghost. We are a great team. I just like to fight Mane's corner on this forum as at times it becomes a total Firmino love in that is OTT. Last year Firmino was poor and we had a great season.

Firmino will have a really good game soon and there will be 20 posts about how he is our most important player, the glue etc. Meanwhile Mane wins us the points gets the goals and he is hardly mentioned by posters on here.

10.) 17 Nov 2019 21:02:59
Mark no offence, but you are wrong on a biblical scale, he's the lynchpin that holds the whole tactic of Klopps together, I wouldn't want to loose any of the front three but Mane and Salah are way easier to replace than Bobby.

11.) 17 Nov 2019 21:04:16
Mark like you, I am a huge Mane fan and to me, he is the best forward in the PL right now, IMO. Even Sterling is not a patch on him regardless of how much the English media want to make him the heir-apparent to Messi. I mean, even Messi voted for Sadio for FIFA player Of the Year this season. Need I say more?

However, that does not mean Mane is not indispensable to us, the same way as Bobbie is. Mane is equally indispensable BUT in a different way. Same goes for Salah but again, in a diff. way. Both guys finish off all the ground work that Bobbie already laid, that's it. For me, why should it be an "either/ or" issue if we can have it all, man?

12.) 17 Nov 2019 21:06:10
Mane, Salah - amazing.
Bobby is the player that brings it all together.

13.) 17 Nov 2019 21:07:50
For the record I don't necessarily see Firmino as our best player, right now that title clearly belongs to Mane.

My point was Klopp's best system has Firmino a the centre of it, can we tweak the system and still win without him? Yes, but on our best day, playing OUR system Firmino is vital and I just wondered whether Ox could, under certain conditions, play the same role so we wouldn't have to change our system.

The question was never to belittle anyone else's contributions to the team and Mark, people's appreciation of Bobby doesn't mean Mane (or any of other player) is appreciated any less.

14.) 17 Nov 2019 21:15:24
Redwolf the PSG game was our first game? If we had to win Red Star away etc I am sure we would have. Bobby was at LFC before Mane he played with Courts, Lallana etc and didn't look anywhere near as effective.

I am not saying Firmino isn't important but I am saying 100% Mane is the main man and everyone of the people you mention above all say Mane is Liverpool's main man in terms of the front 3. Look at the final 2 years ago v Madrid, Salah went off, Firmino was no where (as in all our finals) and Mane was brilliant.

15.) 17 Nov 2019 21:33:58
Iron I understand your point but on this forum at times it becomes a Firmino love in even when its not deserved. I think Mane deserves more praise. As did salah when he was the main man.

Redwolf your latest post I can fully agree with, we can have it all and long may it continue. I do really admire Bobby's attitude on the pitch, it can really set the tone for the other players.

Drogie - maybe live certain things look different. Still haven't got to a game this season. The better we do the more expensive the tickets.

16.) 17 Nov 2019 22:05:24
Fully get the manè love my personal favourite player at the minute he is amazing super star on the pitch humble human being off the pitch a true gent he is one member of a great team the best player on the pitch is always the player wearing a liverpool shirt.

17.) 17 Nov 2019 22:10:40
Mark, we love Bobbie, Salah, and Mane equally, IMO but for diff. reasons. You mentioned how Bobbie was stifled after Salah went off vs Madrid BUT if you are honest, you would remember that that season, Mo was our best player by a mile even tho, Bobbie was a beast that season as well (27 goals in all comps. ) and Mane was at 20 in all comps. How many did Salah score that season? Oh yeah, 44 goals so of course our we would struggle without him. Either way, I over all our players equally for what they bring to the table BUT regarding the attack, Mane may be our best forward BUT without the Bobbie Dazzler being the glue that keeps our whole system together, Mane would not be as effective as he is and neither would Salah.

18.) 17 Nov 2019 22:36:26
the good thing is that when 1 or 2 are having bad days the other all ways steps up. But all 3 are so different and that's what makes them such a great unit. Mane works so hard up and down getting back to help Robbo out and Bobby never stops pressing from the front but Salah never stop making runs all game with his thirst for goals must be so hard work for defenders playing against them. so to pick one out is just each persons opinions, like Mars snickers or twix. Me I think Bobby would be harder to replace I mean we all ready have Salah replacement coming in the summer Mbappé.

19.) 17 Nov 2019 22:38:34
Firmino played with Couts etc. and didn’t look as effective Mark? No he didn’t because Couts, Lallana etc. don’t play the way Salah and Mane play.
A counter argument to that would be that Salah played at Chelsea, Fiorentina and Sampdoria but didn’t look anything like as effective. Mane played at Southampton but was nowhere near the player his is now.
They are a unit. Lose one and it’s not as effective. I think the point people are trying to get across to you is Bobby is almost unique in what he does for the team. There are not many players like him so he is virtually impossible to replace.
You could replace Salah or Mane with a number of pacy wingers out there and then adapt their game to our system (not easy as they are great players but possible, Sancho, Coman, Promes, Dembele, Neres, Gnabry, Sane, Sterling although not all attainable I know but I think could be successful in our system) . With Bobby it’s much more difficult because finding a player with the intelligence, skills, selflessness, engine, dedication and mindset that he has is nigh on impossible. I can’t think of one.
All three are important, great players and we could argue all day about who is better but Bobby just has a unique skill set that would be more difficult to replace.

20.) 17 Nov 2019 23:18:48
Theres no ‘main man’. We’re a team that is bigger than the sum of its parts. Why try and put one player above another?

21.) 18 Nov 2019 13:53:38
Good read that gents and To be honest this whole debate shows what a good place we are in. We are now arguing over who is our best superstar and giving valid points for each. Remember the days when we would be arguing over hpw terrible Balotelli, Lambert and Borini were as our front 3.

22.) 18 Nov 2019 14:01:36
Agreed Virgil - it’s like picking a favourite child. not very productive when all three are so awesome!

The original question is fair though, what to do if Firmino isn’t available? My own view is we don’t have anyone who can replicate him in the squad so why try?

I’d be playing Mane through the middle and Origi out on the left. He may not be the best wing ever but he’s been very productive cutting inside, and with Robbo on the overlap he doesn’t need to be. Mane through the middle also offers a threat and something different to Firmino.

Origi at CF is a good strategy mostly at the death IMO (and particularly when we’re chasing goals) as he has more presence in the box than Firmino, and isn’t required to play the playmaker role at that stage of the match.

23.) 19 Nov 2019 04:59:24
Hi ed001 am I correct in saying that Lallana would be Klopp's choice from our 7 centre mids to play the Firmino role should push come to shove? Followed by Wijnaldum and Milner in that order?

{Ed001's Note - I have no idea because he would prefer not to play a central mid there.}




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11 Jul 2021 13:40:45
Excellent, excellent work Ed. Very much appreciated, thank you.

Some exciting players on that list, forget about likelihood for a minute, who would be the player you would pick to replace Gini? Reading between the lines it seems you like Saul and Neuhaus.




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06 Jul 2021 23:37:32
Ox wasn't exactly cheap? He was also doing really up until his injury and doesn't seem to have come back the same player.

Origi has been here a long time now, has been here before we became a world class team again and has scored some really important goals.

What I'm trying to say is a don't disagree with the overall sentiment of buying players that will challenge the first XI but just don't think some of those names were good examples.




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01 Jun 2021 19:43:05
Rufusthered, The Athletic is actually banned on the Liverpool subreddit, along with you know the one and Daily Mail so your opinion is already well shared.




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01 Feb 2021 14:22:47
The lad has done himself no harm though, even if we don't I'm sure another team will pick him up off the back of what is hopefully a decent season for him and he can get some regular football somewhere else.




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17 Aug 2020 21:15:57
Read between the lines Barakdee. Ed said there was no money there so the implication is if we are bringing him in then it is at the expense of one of the front 3, i. e. Salah. Ed uses this type of example all of the time, not sure why so many people struggle with it.





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04 Jul 2021 21:15:23
Agreed Ed025. By the end of the season I'd fallen out of love with football, the lack of fans, VAR (in tandem with the standard of refereeing) and obviously some of the results for our boys just really turned football in to more of a chore. The Euros though has been ace, lot's of entertaining games, high standard of refereeing and good use of VAR at least in the games I've watched. Really reignited my passion for football again and now looking forward to the PL season kicking off again.


{Ed025's Note - yeah dan same for me mate..



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17 Jun 2021 21:04:55
I'm pretty sure no one here "criticised" him for sideways or safe football, in fact most sent him off with best wishes and thanked him for everything he did for the club. There are those who have suggested he played within himself when he good have been even better for us but no one is begrudging him, football fans love dealing in hyperboles.




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08 Dec 2020 17:47:12
Can't even tell which is his strong foot Ed! In a good way.

He also seems a solid decision maker which can cover for many other deficiencies (not that I'm saying he has them, I don't know yet! )


{Ed001's Note - good point, I don't know which foot is his strongest thinking about it.}



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08 Dec 2020 17:46:10
I'm not particularly fond of these discussions as they always feel very dogmatic.

However, for those on the "all lives matter" wagon I urge you then to go out and do what you can for those less fortunate.

Go to your local soup kitchen.
Volunteer to coach some underprivileged children's sports classes.
Donate to a charity fighting poverty.
Support a minimum wage increase.

Go support "all lives" and perhaps a little anecdotal evidence will change your views.




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03 Dec 2020 13:59:56
Pegleg there's an argument to be said getting a chance to train with a top class coaches, better players may be better than a loan to a lower league side, even if they are playing regular football.

I'm not sure I know enough about training behind scenes but I would certainly be open to that argument.