31 Oct 2022 10:23:26
Ed001 just reading the comments to see everyone's views on what's going on

Basically pep is getting more say and its not working along with multiple injuries and players playing as poor as they have since arriving

Will players returning after the world Cup and the break away be enough to just reset and start winning again or do the problems run deeper.

{Ed001's Note - it might be enough to paper over the cracks, yes. But I personally believe the players we have are simply not the right players for this system and we either have to change the players or the way of playing for long term success.}

1.) 31 Oct 2022
31 Oct 2022 10:50:23
Pep and Klopp wants to play the Manchester city football with Liverpool midfielders. It won’t work. Fullbacks coming in, wingers going out and Midfielders progressing through the channels. Sorry not happening.

2.) 31 Oct 2022
31 Oct 2022 11:03:23
I don't think changing players suits our club as we do not have unlimited resources to do that. Questions ed001, do you think the change in how we play is the main reason of the problems that we are having right now? Sometimes when i saw we play this season, its like the players do not know what they are suppose to do. It kinda a shambles sometime.

{Ed001's Note - yes, I feel it is the main problem.}

3.) 31 Oct 2022
31 Oct 2022 11:11:27
Read an article for n the mirror by Fowler. He summed up the different issues currently facing the club. I think he made a fair assessment.
In a nutshell he highlighted - injuries, young players who will always lack consistency and the need for a few new players. These issues have been made worse by the heavy schedule imposed by the World Cup.
It’s hard to watch the struggles but form is temporary. With a full squad we will massively improve.
Keep the faith ✊.

4.) 31 Oct 2022
31 Oct 2022 11:20:23
It won't be long until some of the latest crop of club developed youth players are able to step up and bring some energy and enthusiasm to the squad.
If the right purchases can be made, this season will be a mere springboard to better things.
As for Pep, it seems as though Klopp is supporting him in taking up more responsibility in order to push him forward to be the next manager when he leaves. This loyalty is commendable, although also can create issues as we see with some of the lingering squad players that do not provide enough consistency and quality.
Considering how few saleable assets that we have to move on, and with a few Bosman's looming, this is a real test for FSG and their desire to allow our greatest manager for decades to rebuild a tired squad.

5.) 31 Oct 2022
31 Oct 2022 12:22:35
I really don't understand why we made so many fundamental changes to a system that was beating everyone. We seem to be obsessed with changing it for the sake of it. Arrogance?

The 433 worked well. We just needed to improve the players within it. Some people will argue that the low blocks were an issue that needed a change, but were they really a material issue over the duration of a whole season? If anything, we could have found upgrades for Bobby and Hendo that would have given us a little more penetration through the middle while maintaining the 433.

But instead we changed EVERYTHING without changing any of the players!

Right now we have a deep defence, a wide open midfield and forwards that are pressing individually. It's an absolute disaster.

6.) 31 Oct 2022
31 Oct 2022 13:10:00
Totally agree FlyPelican. However the foation needed changing when he had a few injuries early in season. hasn't worked. Get back to what we know and upgrade the players who are ageing. Doesn't help matters certain players like fab and vvd for instance and playing well below the level expected of them. Forget rice and probably Bellingham but we need 2 new signings In there minimum. Diaz was a big blow and his drive is seriously missed. Hopefully January transfer window will sort this rubbish out. if fsg don't give us money then, doubt we'll get any in summer. And we'll be further behind.

7.) 31 Oct 2022
31 Oct 2022 13:17:57
FlyPelicanFly, unless I'm mistaken, Ed001 had already made the point recently that the system had already been changed last year and that there was the impression that the successes we saw were because of that.

That's the thing with winning. You just glance over the problems and keep moving onwards. Most of us (including myself) always repeat that it's only the 3 points that matter, even if we play poorly. Well, here we are, at a juncture, where we are both playing poorly again and not collecting points, too. The problems are fully exposed now and everyone has suddenly woken up.

8.) 31 Oct 2022
31 Oct 2022 13:41:26
Reading through these, there are some fair assessments and it is obvious we have players underperforming and not delivering to the standards we expect of them.

But reading into the formation changes, what do we think would actually suit us best?

A concern I have and have highlighted previously is regarding the midfield and that mid 3. Especially with Elliot playing a part of it.
Now I love the kid, he has potential and drive which is wonderful to see… but, in that mid 3. I feel it is causing a lot of problems we are seeing right now.

Remember he initially is a RW and loves to attack and push high, defending is not his main focus.

I feel like it is his positional sense that is impacting the play, his awareness to come for the ball and create the space in that pocket which was previously occupied by hendo of last season. It has impacted TAA and salahs position and ulitmately lead to confusion.

There were quite a few times on the weekend when I was watching Gomez, Thiago and Fabinho position, trying to find space and pockets but Elliot was off screen or simply out of sight and thus firmino is dropping deep to collect as Leeds were using a high press which was working. But Elliot needed to be deeper to collect the ball and be able to spread the ball out wide more or offer an out.

He is young and hopefully will learn. But this is causing issues I see and I know consistency will develop the more he plays as he is still very young. Just hope it does get better and he can fit into the role better. As Thiago and fabinho’s legs seem to struggle to cover all the ground and find the space for that matter too. Especially when firmino is dropping so deep because of it.

It might be tactical and be asked of him to be an outlet and be further up the pitch. But the formation doesn’t seem to be set up to support this.

Ed001, if your around, I’d love to get your thoughts on this as well and seeing what’s happened so far, what formation could we go forward with that works.

{Ed001's Note - I don't think he is the problem, Firmino was dropping deep anyway and always has done. That was the role he was assigned to drop in behind Nunez and Salah to allow them to play through the middle more. Elliott was out there to give Salah more freedom to roam I think. The problems don't seem to me to be about what we do on the ball, it is off it that we are struggling. Then I can see an issue with Elliott as he is young and learning. It was his extremely weak attempt at a tackle that allowed Leeds to launch the attack that led to their first goal. That is what he needs to work on. Players shouldn't break a challenge so easily.}

9.) 31 Oct 2022
31 Oct 2022 13:59:29
Great comments on this thread. Essentially, we are playing against our nature, end of. You can't just spend 7 yrs playing a certain way and then just switch it up w/ o getting the players to fit it.
To make things worse, this season is the absolute WORST time to do such a fundamental shift esp. if you're not going to get the players in to play this new style. This is what I do not understand. This is madness, IMO.

Now, Im not even sure we have the players to play the system and the injuries just make the issues we have worst. Why did Klopp do this or allow this to happen? We deliberately went away from what we literally were to an alien system that nobody not even the players seem to understand. It's crazy. Heaven help us.

10.) 31 Oct 2022
31 Oct 2022 14:37:19
In a thread on Twitter, Kennett compared Liverpool’s current situation to that of the Boston Red Sox after their commitment to lucrative contracts for the likes of David Price, Chris Sale and Nathan Eovaldi between 2017 and 2019.

As he explains, Fenway Sports Group – who own both Liverpool and the Red Sox – “massively changed their approach” in doing so, and while it helped secure the World Series in 2018, there has been little success since.

“The legacy of that win constrained them for years and they are yet to recover, ” Kennett notes.

On Liverpool’s flurry of new deals, he adds: “The Edwards strategy represented an enormous financial commitment in terms of signing bonuses, pay rises and contract years well into their 30s.

“Alisson is the only player who is maintaining the performance that justified the contract decision.

“The others are all showing signs of decline, especially physically. Some of it significant. ”.

11.) 31 Oct 2022
31 Oct 2022 14:50:16
I read ed001 comment about pep having his idea of how to play and stuck with it even when it is not working. That is concerning when he is the one that having a lot of say in the way we play right now. It is clearly not working right now and changes need to be made.

12.) 31 Oct 2022
31 Oct 2022 16:20:07
There is much talk about the big contracts we've handed out. Other than Henderson's one, which in my opinion wasn't needed and was too long, are there any that we think we shouldn't have handed out?

Milly is on 12-month rolling. Salah, Virg, Alisson, Fab, Trent and Robbo deals were necessary. We were all happy on here when Joey G got his.

Matip perhaps? Jota's?

I assume Ox and Naby's deals expire. And I am not sure if we'll re-sign Bobby either.

Thiago will be into his final year in the summer. Will be interesting to see what we do there.

{Ed025's Note - I don’t think the length of the contracts is the problem FPF it the amount they are paying mate. Salah, VVD and quite a few others are on mega bucks and it’s bleeding the club dry. Yes you have to pay the big money to get the top quality but it’s no use then moaning that the club don’t have the funds for new top bracket players. It’s a catch 22 scenario and it seems to have put the club behind the 8 ball imo ..

13.) 31 Oct 2022
31 Oct 2022 16:59:51
ED25, I fully agree with you on the catch 22 part. We can't on one hand complain that we can't keep our best players cos we seemingly "can't pay the wages required to keep them" and on the other hand, literally complain when we actually CAN pay the wages to keep them here. That doesn't wash. You can't bash the club for not doing something and then, come back and bash them when they actually do. Again, that dog won't hunt, IMO.

Now one can debate whether certain players deserved it or not BUT before they got their deals, who in the fan base had probs with Salah, Ali, VVD and Fab getting their deals? I'll wait cos nobody complained on here. Hendo? some did BUT not a whole lot if I recall. Could be wrong.

In the end, I don't think the contract extension is an issue except one is accusing them of lack of effort and laziness after they got paid which I doubt cos they got their money LAST season before they challenged till the very last kick of last season and nearly won every trophy so I disagree on that. Our issues are what they are. That ain't one of them, IMO.

14.) 31 Oct 2022
31 Oct 2022 17:14:38
Indeed, Ed. You can't hold onto the world's best goalkeeper, fullbacks, centre-back and one of the world's best forwards without paying market rate salaries.

The disruption in 2020 probably didn't help things - both from an income perspective and a selling perspective. We may have seen one of Sadio or Mo move on for a very big fee had that not happened.

Looks like we might be back on track with the income though.

15.) 31 Oct 2022
31 Oct 2022 19:11:42
They certainly aren’t playing to the level you are claiming FPF. Are they just money grabbers?

16.) 31 Oct 2022
31 Oct 2022 20:28:04
I’m not sure I have a problem with us paying huge salaries to these aging players, simply because I don’t think they’re finished at all. They’re just playing well below their level because the tactics, training and clearly the overall approach going into this season have been absolutely diabolical.

It’s almost impossible to save our season now because while everyone else was in pre season doing proper pre season things, we were messing about with god awful tactics and fitness regimes that have clearly made the players less robust, both in their stamina levels and their susceptibility to injuries.

Now we’re trying to fix all of that on the fly in the middle of one of the most packed seasons in history, it’s not going to happen. I actually think we tried to up the intensity levels against Leeds, but because we weren’t used to playing at that intensity, our technical ability and composure suffered massively as a result.

The players look confused, fed up, and mentally checked out. I’ve criticised their attitude all season and I think that way they are being managed and coached is entirely responsible for this. Even if you just look at the implementation of the high line, it seems to have convinced the players that they don’t actually need to do any defending at all, especially the likes of van Dijk and Trent who think the offside flag will always save them when they fail to stick a foot in.

New personnel are 100% needed, but I wouldn’t be flapping about the ability of these players just yet. It can’t be be that the likes of Fabinho and Trent are finished before they hit 30. In fact, those two players seem to be suffering most of all from the tactics, because they are so often left with colossal spaces to cover and isolated from everyone else, which never used to happen 3 years ago.

The key component seems to clearly be Pep Lijnders, but ultimately the blame lies with the manager for allowing this madness to take place. The most worrying thing is that I’m not sure he has it in him, he has become too nice, too attached, too complacent with what he has. I would love to say I could see him jettisoning Lijnders, Ox and Keita mid season, but i just can’t see it. I am very worried.

17.) 31 Oct 2022
31 Oct 2022 21:46:25
Such a great thread with many good inputs from all. Personally I agree with many on here that I do not understand why we changed the style of play. Everyone enjoyed the high intensity pressing and this system made Trent, Robertson, Fabs, Mane, Bobby and Salah superstars backed up by the spine of Hendo, Ali and VVD.
To change the system after drilling it in for so long without changing the playing staff to suit that style simply screams of incompetence to me. Klopp is starting to look fed up and I hope he gives up on this path (and whomever came up with it…Pep) very soon. Either that or ask FSG for the £400mil minimum that would be needed to put a team capable of playing that way together, because our players are proving right now they cannot. Even then we would be a poor man’s City, although I guess everyone is poor in comparison. We have beaten City in the past with the old style so why try to copy them? I don’t think it has ever been Klopps style either. None of what is currently occurring makes any sense to me.

{Ed002's Note - Is this in addition to the £400M for Mbappe and Bellingham?}

18.) 31 Oct 2022
31 Oct 2022 16:51:59
Whos decision is it to get rid of certain players like ox keita ect ed? If its klopps and he's told there's no money to sign others so we are stuck with them until their contracts run out? And then what? Still no money. So basically we are better suited to be a selling club. Or we are giving certain players too long on the length of contracts?

{Ed001's Note - the contracts are too big to get rid of the likes of Ox and Keita, no one else will come near the amounts they are being paid. That is why they are still there, both were offered around in the summer but no one wanted them. Strange how everyone lauds Edwards, but Edwards handed out these big contracts to players who had yet to earn them. There was no incentive to perform as they were already being paid top dollar.}

19.) 31 Oct 2022
31 Oct 2022 18:42:00
Edd001 is the system suited to nunes or you think he'd excel more at the higher press more intensity game.

{Ed001's Note - I think he would be better at a higher press.}

20.) 31 Oct 2022
31 Oct 2022 22:38:17
Good post Anonymous Woolback.

@Ed002, so you're saying there's a chance of Kylian and Jude? :)

On a serious note, we don't need 100s of millions to get back on track. However, we have left ourselves a lot to do in a short space of time so we're going to have to be spot on in the next two windows.

I'd much prefer us to go back to workhorse midfielders like Kone, Sangare, Musah, Laimer and Caicedo and then focus on a unicorn to replace Bobby for the long-term, rather than bet the whole house on Jude.

21.) 31 Oct 2022
31 Oct 2022 23:16:44
Ox and Naby are the two biggest fails and the main reason that Milner and Henderson are such talking hotly debated points in 22/ 23.

I'd also argue the Thiago experiment has not gone well. A lovely player but his availability has hampered us and this new style to be built around him has been a disaster as a result.

Henderson's contract renewal is a strange one. Did we really need to give him a 4 year deal? Rumours are that Klopp pushed for that one.

22.) 01 Nov 2022
01 Nov 2022 08:46:09
Mark, the big players (bar Salah) earned their contracts fair and square and even you wouldn’t deny that, based on what they had achieved prior. Sakhalin earned his as well cis his production was ridiculous.

Now, They may be playing badly now BUT like I said, they got all bar Salah got their money at the start of last season, NOT this season and we know what they achieved and nearly did last term so you can’t hold that against them. Money grabbers? Have a word with yourself.