14 May 2016 18:01:03
Smithy, I can see your point and I do agree with you. Which is why I'm baffled by your attempts to argue with me.

I've said I want to see Lallana replaced with a better player; You have talked about the need for more quality in wide areas as well. You said that it didn't matter if they cut inside or played narrow just that you want more quality and specifically pace; I agree with that. My argument is that we need wide attackers/ forwards and not a traditional "winger".

Perhaps it's a terminology issue but to me a winger is someone like Antonio Valencia, Stewart Downing, Marc Albrighton etc. A player who hugs the touchline and whips dangerous balls into the box. Rafa Silva is not an orthodox winger. He may have pace, but that doesn't make him a winger in my opinion. Ibe isn't really a winger. How many times does he go past a full back and whip a cross in? He is always cutting inside. Wingers barely exist anymore because they're all being converted into wing backs at early ages. Most wide players tend to be converted attacking midfielders and strikers.

The proper flying wingers of the world have all started playing on inverted sides now. Robben was a left winger at Chelsea and yet now he plays on the right so he can cut in and shoot. Bale and Ronaldo have done the same at Madrid. Football is ever changing. Wide players now tend to either cut inside off the flanks or just play narrow to begin with. I think the main reason for this is that full backs are slowly becoming wing backs (probably because none of them can defend, so the best way to protect your wide areas is to pin the opposition wide players back) . All the top teams except Atletico Madrid have very attacking left and rights backs. To make room for their marauding runs though you need your wide attackers to get out the way. By cutting in or coming narrow they pull the opposition defence in tight and leave acres of space for the modern day full backs to bomb in to. They also then get themselves in to better goalscoring positions hence why modern wide players score much more goals than wide players of the older days. Combine Bale and Ryan Giggs for example; Giggs created way more goals by staying wide and crossing dangerous balls into the area. But he can't touch Bales goalscoring record. Our lack of width has nothing to do with Coutinho and Lallana coming inside. That is tactical to allow overlapping runs. The lack of width is because Clyne and Moreno can't cross!

Yes, Klopp has us looking at wide players. Rafa Silva who cuts in off the left. Praet who is a converted attacking midfielder. Nkoudou who also cuts inside. Gotze who plays really narrow. Volland who cuts in off the right and is a converted striker.

My point is that none of the wide players we are looking at are going to go past the full back on the outside and curl in a blinding cross. If we need to mix it up and play that way then Ojo and Canos can do so. But it is not Klopps preferred style. There is no doubt he is looking to improve on Lallana and Ibe. Our senior options out wide aren't as good as they could be. Aside from Coutinho we don't really have any top class wide forwards. Lallana tries hard but he is ultimately just a good player and nothing special. Ibe seems to have lost his spark and needs to rediscover that away from all the pressure of being "the next Sterling".

If you want more quality out wide then sure, I agree. But Coutinho will be our first choice left forward and he is not going to magically start playing like Giggs! I would love to know though, do you consider Neymar or Suarez to be wingers? Because they are doing the exact same roles as Coutinho and Lallana. They just do it better and have Alba and Alves overlapping so the team still carries a wide threat.

That's why I'm not getting sucked into an argument with you Smithy. I'll happily have a discussion though because I think you are ultimately correct and that we're arguing terminology. What you are saying is not something I can disagree with. You are right. Lallana needs upgrading if possible. My argument is not with people like you who just want a better player on the right who can actually beat a man, score more goals and create more chances. My argument is with people who think we need forwards who will hit the byline and cross it in all game. Klopp is very clearly asking Clyne and Moreno to do that. If he wasn't then he'd have dropped them by now because they are both playing like what used to be considered a winger which leads to them getting caught high up when opposition teams break on us. They hug the touchline and always look to run into space out wide to deliver a cross. In fact they make more runs in behind the opposition backline than any other player in the team. Players like Ojo and Canos will be excellent plan B's next year. They may even be moulded into future first team players eventually. But Lallana if replaced, will almost definitely be replaced by a wide forward who comes in narrow. Praet, Gotze, Volland or Silva will all do just that to allow Clyne room to overlap.

So yes. Klopp is looking at wide players. But wingers? If you just consider any player in an advanced wide role as a winger then yes. But my idea of a winger is different and they barely exist anymore. That seems to be what some people want. The same argument for needing new wide players is always used. "We lack width. None of our players can cross a ball". Congratulations. You are all correct. But this is not because of Couts or Lallana. It is because of Clyne and Moreno being ineffective at what Klopp is asking of them. That is why I am saying we don't need wingers.

We need a keeper, a centre back, a left back, a right back, and a player with more quality than Lallana if the budget will stretch that far. For some reason beyond my understanding, Klopp seems to rate Clyne. But our lack of threat out wide has nothing to do with Coutinho and Lallana. People are grilling them for not doing something that they are not even in the team to do. They should both be scoring more goals considering they are playing so narrow but that is a different argument altogether. And I won't sit and let Coutinho and Lallana take the heat that Clyne and Moreno should be enduring.

The other alternative for Klopp is to tell Clyne to stop playing as a wing back, and sign somebody who can cross it to play as an actual right winger. But we've not looked at anyone like that according to the Eds. There's not really any wingers about nowadays who are actually good at it. Albrighton is the only good one I can think of in the Prem. And even he is played as an inverted winger. Except instead of cutting inside, he just cuts back onto his right foot and then whips in a cross. Hence why he doesn't score any goals. I believe he has one league goal, but around 10 assists. Navas is a traditional winger which is why he also scores so few goals. It's quite simply impossible to score regularly from the touchline! The problem with Navas his he's not even that good at crossing though.

Everybody seems to still be thinking Rodgers is in charge and we will play a 4-3-3. Klopps system is a 4-2-3-1 but the 3 is very unorthodox. The central player of the 3 tends to play as a second striker (Firmino) and the wide players play very narrow (Counts and Lallana) so they can get more shots away. So people need to relinquish this fantasy that we will have be looking for wingers and a third midfielder (or deep lying playmaker as some unnamed posters call it) to sit in between the centre backs and make them split. Those days are gone (thank god) . There will be no more reverting to 4-3-3 at the start of every season. Count your lucky stars that that is the case.

1.) 14 May 2016
14 May 2016 18:22:54
Benteke got into the 18 yard box quicker than it took me to read your post MK Scouser. Fair play fella for your dedication must have taken awhile for you to write that.

2.) 14 May 2016
14 May 2016 18:34:37
I didn't realise it was that long haha. Saturdays are boring when the football isn't on. Normally I'd be streaming a game or two right now, but the myp2p links are all boring right now. I'm going to have a breakdown when the summer transfer window opens. God I hope the Euros are entertaining!

3.) 14 May 2016
14 May 2016 19:03:06
Keep tapping away MK, that's what the sites for. I will miss the footie too mate, but I expect us to be very busy in the transfer market this summer, especially if we qualify for the Champions League, by winning on Wednesday. So I look forward to reading your comments on what business we do.

4.) 14 May 2016
14 May 2016 19:23:33
If you agree with me, what's the need for the essay? lol. we need better wide players and the club is looking for them. end of discussion.

5.) 14 May 2016
14 May 2016 19:59:30
Lallana is quality, he will not be sold, he is showing signs of epitomising Klopps ways- see, an opinion in 16 words. Simples.

6.) 14 May 2016
14 May 2016 20:07:25
MK Scouser: I just read your mini essay and see why you wrote it. i hear what you're saying.

7.) 14 May 2016
14 May 2016 20:47:17
Yeah the essay wasn't to argue with you buddy. More an explanation of what my argument is with others. I haven't seen one post from you I haven't agreed with. Hence why I got the feeling the only difference in our opinions was the definition of the word 'winger' lol. Glad you did read it though. It wasn't meant to be that long. I guess I get carried away when I'm bored!

8.) 14 May 2016
14 May 2016 18:53:04
Adam

So what should we do when a team sit back and make 10 men wall? Our full backs CANNOT CROSS is the first real issue. If you cannot penetrate through the middle you need stretch out wide and whip in or cut inside.
We simply don't do that.

I agree with your points on different types of wingers.

9.) 14 May 2016
14 May 2016 23:49:00
MK this kind of confusion happens in these posts. The same thing happens when you mention CDM, you can guarantee that deep lying playmaker will be then mentioned even though they are completely different roles. I actually agree with you on this. We do need some natural width just not old fashioned wingers, we don't play with a target man. We need some one who will go wide to stretch the play but who has pace and is intelligent enough to know when to pass simple or cut in or run further on and cut back to a late run etc.

10.) 15 May 2016
15 May 2016 04:51:45
Agree with majority of the explanations about wingers but u seem to forget that while the system you mentioned might be the best formation at our disposal based on the players we have it does not mean klopp would not play with a traditional winger if he was in the squad and the situation required someone to run beyond the opposition defence.

Truth be told no one on this site has a foggyest who klopp wants to bring in and how he really wants to set up the team. So while its fun to debate, to categorically state klopp is only after x or y is nugatory until it actually happens.