19 Jan 2023 14:05:23
I don't consider myself a financial expert, but even i know revenue is gross, not net. The wage bill is has been fluctuating between 60-70% of our gross revenue for the last few years. £314m and £325m in the last 2 financial years.

FSG invested huge amounts of money in their early days when the club was running at a loss, they still threw about £500m at transfers for Dalglish and Rodgers. They also revamped the stadium and built a new training ground.

What people need to understand is that FSG are primarily sports investors. Sport was absolutely battered by C.V. so FSG and their investors lost a lot of money. It's not that they won't invest, it's that they can't invest; hence why they're looking for investors or a sale.

That, combined with a wage bill racked up into the hundreds of millions by Klopp and Edwards giving huge contracts to old or injury prone players we then can't sell, has left the club in a situation where we don't make enough profit to compete with some of the other clubs. The clubs not bust. There is money to spend still (Diaz, Nunez, Gakpo all signed in the last 12 months for what could rise to about £185m in fees alone) but we have to spend within reason. Else we're just borrowing against future earnings (again) .

C.V. wasn't FSG's fault. The wage bill isn't FSG's fault. Would it be nice to get new owners who can afford to invest their own money into growing the club further? Yes. Does that mean we should forget what FSG have done for the club in terms of investment? No. Will FSG make a tidy profit on their investment? Yes, and so they should. That's business.

{Ed025's Note - "your fired as well MK"..

1.) 19 Jan 2023
19 Jan 2023 14:44:02
I think it’s quite common knowledge that FSG are sports investors and that C.V. hit sports badly. At the same time, fans have a right to voice their concerns if after our most successful period in modern era, we are unable to keep up with even the likes of villa, West Ham, spurs etc. who have all had a higher net spend in the last 5 years.

Ultimately I don’t dislike FSG as I don’t think they’ve run the club poorly like the glazers or Ashley, but it’s hard not to be frustrated when you see the spend comparisons against (respectfully) smaller clubs.

I don’t know how a club runs well enough to know who is responsible for giving out contracts but I’d be surprised if klopp is responsible for actually handing out these contracts.

I’m assuming by huge contracts you mean vvd and salah? Personally, I have no qualms with contracts being given to vvd and salah. It’s easy to question vvds contract now but no one did such a thing when we were challenging on all fronts last season. And can you imagine if we let both mane and salah go in the same window? There would rightfully be an uproar. Sure we got some things wrong but that’s the nature of the game and ultimately we got more right than wrong with our signings.

2.) 19 Jan 2023
19 Jan 2023 14:49:30
“What people need to understand…” - so glad we have you to educate us on the most basic elements of football lol.

3.) 19 Jan 2023
19 Jan 2023 15:03:39
Have Villa, Spurs and West Ham spent their money better than we have over the past five years?
And what have they got to show for it?

4.) 19 Jan 2023
19 Jan 2023 15:08:50
Mk scouser your wrong when you say they can't invest, they're billionaires so the can invest more, they choose not to. They also sold a percentage of fsg red bird, and raised 600m . So this ceap they can't invest is rubbish .

5.) 19 Jan 2023
19 Jan 2023 15:14:28
“Don’t make enough profit to compete with other clubs”.
Hmmm, not sure that’s true MKS, though most PL football clubs make very little profit and Liverpool are one of the few that do.
We don’t have vast cash reserves, as we don’t tend to sell large numbers of players for big money perhaps.
Owners can, and other owners do, inject their own money into clubs and turn it into equity.
I’m not aware that this is a route that FSG have used, they’re into the self-sustaining model, which is fair enough.

6.) 19 Jan 2023
19 Jan 2023 15:21:43
What the above basically means is "we ain't got a Pot to P-SS in"!

7.) 19 Jan 2023
19 Jan 2023 15:21:55
Salah1, maybe you know it but there are literally loads of people on here constantly moaning about the how the club being skint makes no sense or making snide comments about the owners not giving us any money to spend. I'm not having a go at them, just respectfully explaining to them that revenue being high doesn't mean we have money to spend. FSG have made mistakes but overall they will leave the club in a far better place than where they found it, so I think they deserve better than being chastised on here daily for things beyond their control.

I also disagree completely that finances are the most basic element of sport. I'd wager 95% of people on here don't even read the financial summary the club posts online annually. I do read it but still only understand about a quarter of it hence why I was clear that I'm not an expert on the finances. But i do understand enough to know that the clubs running costs strip that revenue back until it's almost nothing in football terms, and that FSG and the Directors take little to no money out the club.

Redman87, I was more thinking about how we've given huge contracts in terms of length and salary to players relative to their ability/ stage of their career/ injury record. Then subsequently lost them for nothing because nobody else would pay them that to take them. Sturridge, Lallana, Gini, Origi, Ox, Keita, Milner and Firmino etc. All have left or will leave for nothing. Thiago, Henderson and Matip will likely leave for nothing too in the future. For a club like us needing to sell to buy, that is nowhere near good enough. The forward planning hasn't been good enough from the people running the football side of the business and that is primarily the fault of Michael Edwards who had 6 years in the job, but also to a lesser extent Klopp and now Julian Ward.

I fully agree on Salah's contract. He earned it; he's never injured and bangs in 25-45 goals a season without fail. But I would question the thought process behind Virgil's latest long term deal which was given to him during his ACL recovery. Personally I think that was rather premature, as there is always a risk with injury a player might not fully recover and I think it's fair to say Virgil hasn't. He's still a good player but he's no longer world class in my opinion, and he's also starting to lose his pace and pick up injuries.

8.) 19 Jan 2023
19 Jan 2023 15:33:07
Agreed port red. I’m not overly critical of them as they have invested but it’s clear we need more investment to keep up with rivals now.

It’s not just villa or spurs but arsenal wolves Everton etc are outspending us.

I get the over elaborated and basic point of them being investors (lol salah1) but as the poster above said we have a right to be frustrated. 3 CL finals in last 5 years only to be outspent by spurs/ villa is frustrating!

Sure they have their goals and fans will have their own for the club but if they don’t align for the good of the future of the club, fans (who pay good money to support their team) have the right to voice their opinion.

9.) 19 Jan 2023
19 Jan 2023 15:41:28
@MK who said finances were the basic element?! You condescendingly informing us that FSG are sports investors is pretty basic. But well done on reading the financials ?.

10.) 19 Jan 2023
19 Jan 2023 15:44:06
They used to Juicer, but they've simply fallen on hard times and need new investment, which they are actively seeking now. They are allowed to put in money but they don't have enough to compete financially with City, Chelsea, PSG, Newcastle etc.

Port Red, FSG is not one billionaire individual. It's an investment group so it's not that easy to just inject money when they've lost so much. Their investors will be asking questions because they will all have lost a lot of money in the last few years.

I don't understand this stuff enough to break it down any further than i already have. All i'm asking is that people appreciate why these revenue numbers posted today aren't relevant to what we can spend. The club isn't skint but just having a revenue close to that of Man City doesn't mean we can spend as they do right now. I'll let others continue the debate from here as I'm off on a date ??.

{Ed025's Note - best of luck MK, dont do anything i wouldn,t do mate.. :)

11.) 19 Jan 2023
19 Jan 2023 15:52:58
Why would anyone be bothered about people making snide comments towards the owners? Who Cares? We could have owners that spent £300 million every season and cut the ticket prices in half, the best I would ever feel towards a firm of billionaires is indifferent.

12.) 19 Jan 2023
19 Jan 2023 16:31:49
Liverpool have the 4th highest wage bill in the PL. considering the success they have had, especially compared to 2 other clubs (Chelsea and Man Utd) I think they are do quite well. Also the wage ratio to turnover on these 2 clubs is also favourable, especially Chelsea @77%.

13.) 19 Jan 2023
19 Jan 2023 17:03:51
MK, you should know by now that talking sense and logic does not sit very well, with many people over here, even though factual evidence is sitting right in front of everyone's eyes.

1) "A partial investment is never going to happen, because who would be interested in taking a stake in a league that has reached saturation? " Seriously? What was the £533 Million investment in FSG, by Red Bird Capital, just 9 months ago? A media hoax or an actual, factual event? Sure, the investment was in FSG and not LFC, but so what? Partial investments are happening in this post C. V. world. Every investor makes his investment according to his risk/ return appetite and people should stop making stuff up to suit their narrative and agenda.

2) "We are skint", "we live hand to mouth", and "we sell to buy". Since 2020 we have bought Jota, Thiago, Tsimikas, Pitaluga, Davies, Diaz, Konate, Nunez, Carvalho, Ramsay and Gakpo for a total of £307.35 Million (not including assorted fees, signing on fees and other charges) . In that same time we have sold Brewster, Hoever, Lovren, Ejaria, Kane, Wilson, Grujic, Shaqiri, Awoniyi, Grabara, Millar, Mane, Williams, Minamino, and Davies for a total of £167 Million. Leaving a net spend on players of approximately £140.35 (not including the various add-ons) . I'm not includng stadium expansion, training ground purchase and development, and all wages because that has to be balanced by all other remaining revenues, and we're discussing player ins and outs, only. How is that 'skint" or "sell to buy" as if we're on the verge of bankruptcy once again, when there is a clear net spend that is factual? And you're off your rocker if you take the media reports of £400-500 Million, for other clubs, as a net spend, because it clearly is not. In this same exact period, Manchester City has a net spend of £134 Million (yes, less than us) . Chelsea has a net spend of £552.47 Million in the same period (but that's because of the madness under Boehli, this year. If you take out this year's purchases you get a net spend of £183.51 Million only) . Manchester United have spent $402.67 Million in the same period, and once again the bulk of it this year because of Ten Hag (£227 Million net spend just this year - and if you take out the two dud purchases of Sancho and Antony - £180 Million for both, ManU have a net spend lower than us) . I can go on and on, but the main point is how is it that we are "skint" or a "sell to buy" club when we've spent more than ManCity (everyone's favorite to win the Premier League every year), and in the same neighbourhood as other clubs? Stop the narrative and the agenda and look at the facts. (Data sourced from Transfermarkt) .

3) "Football, the clubs and the sport is becoming very commercialised in a way, especially now fans are looking into this as an experience, so they would like to and experience and entertain themselves. At the same time digitalisation is becoming very important for this. So, the business model of these institutions is becoming very commercialised and very investment friendly. You will not be surprised if we invest in this. We have not made our mind yet but this is a very commercially driven decision that we go through. And again, sports is becoming a very important theme as well, people are engaged more in a sport and digitalisation is making it more attractive to investors" - Mansoor bin Ebrahim Al-Mahmoud, CEO of Qatar Investment Authority. If anything, this quote should tell you that even the Arabs are investors, above all, looking for profit making opportunities that also enhance their exposure. You can reduce it to "sportswashing" or "collecting competing toys amongst the Gulf royal familes" (and maybe it is) but clearly that's not all it is. Otherwise, the PSG owners would not be looking for American investors for a stake sale, since quite some time. Net spend of over a billion at PSG, and they've finally had enough. I'm mentioning all this because it's the popular belief amongst some on here that the Arabs would come in like knights in shining armour (or should it be "sheiks" in shining armour - very cute thread on the rumours page recently, very mature and adult too), and turn on the petrodollars taps just out of humanitarian concern for the viewing Liverpudlian faithful? Wake up and smell the roses. It doesn't work like that. People talk about investing companies andindividuals like they're some kind of blood-sucking monsters. They're not. They're just profit seekers like all businesses. Look at the Glazers. They've probably realized they've sucked all the juice out of their fruit and they too are trying to run for the hills.

(Not trying to be pedantic or condending as some will see it; just laying down some facts that should precede agenda driven expression. )

14.) 19 Jan 2023
19 Jan 2023 17:57:40
ArAy mate seems you haven't understood foot and mouth policy.

15.) 19 Jan 2023
19 Jan 2023 16:31:30
Think you're taking that way too personally Salah1 as it clearly wasn't meant to be patronising to anyone, merely a very placid and non-offensive reply to those complaining we can't spend. Maybe you're taking out your insecurities in real life on me, because you're only able to be a brave man behind a key board? As anybody who found my post remotely condescending probably needs to go to see a professional about their fragile ego. And i mean that in the most offensive way possible you absolute snowflake.

Cheers Ed025, but we've been dating for nearly 18 months now so nothing is off limits anymore ?.

{Ed025's Note - thats not a date then MK, get a ring on her finger mate and do the honourable thing.. :)

16.) 19 Jan 2023
19 Jan 2023 18:52:34
Kopforever, do enlighten us kindly, and we'll all be in your debt. ?.

{Ed001's Note - foot and mouth? The kids have that at the moment, I never knew it was a policy. Hand to mouth I have heard of, but foot and mouth is new on me.}

17.) 19 Jan 2023
19 Jan 2023 19:00:38
Fully agreed, Ed025. He should do the honourable thing and join the rest of us in our sufferings. ??.

{Ed025's Note - he could also spend less time drinking, fraternizing with women and playing sport ArAy...which we all know will happen mate.. :)

18.) 19 Jan 2023
19 Jan 2023 19:11:29
I hope this enlightens you ArAy mate

{Ed002's Note - I have explained why. Liverpool did not have the money to do anything other than make staged payments. }

{Ed002's Note - Liverpool can factor future income but it will cost a lot of money - and remember they have not paid for the spending from last summer. }

{Ed002's Note - Klopp knew had had to work with the confines of that and the money. If he is not up to other will be. }

In short the players you mentioned above were bought for staged payments which has tied down huge chunk of our future income.

19.) 19 Jan 2023
19 Jan 2023 20:06:55
??I’m the one who’s insecure yet you’re the one resorting to name calling over the fact someone disagrees with your post ?

Happy to share details to discuss in person. Snowflake.

{Ed014's Note - get you tough guy! ??

20.) 19 Jan 2023
19 Jan 2023 20:28:20
Kopforever, but we all knew this, most of us do read both the rumours and banter pages.

So your argument is that a purchase on EMI's does not qualify as a purchase in the books, but one where the full amount is paid upfront, does? Consequently, sales where we agree to staged payments by the buyer don't qualify as sales also?

And do tell, mate, did the source of your knowledge also enlighten you as to whether other teams are ALL paying full amounts upfront and not in staged instalments as we have been doing?

Whether you buy on credit or sell on credit, the borrowing costs or the discounting costs of receivables ("factoring") are clearly reflected in profit-loss statements and balance sheets, under expenditures. Every business has expenditures. But it does not change the amount of either the sales or purchases. And "huge chunk" makes it sound like every time we make a purchase with staged installments, we are at risk of going under. We're not.

And when you have a chance, have a look at the BBC article, citing Deloitte as their source, and stating that Liverpool is the 3rd richest club in the World (in terms of last year's revenue), at almost £600 Million, after Manchester City and Real Madrid. "We're skint". NO WE ARE NOT.

21.) 19 Jan 2023
19 Jan 2023 20:36:23
Mk Scouser mate, our wage isn't even 50% of our current revenue.

capology.com/club/liverpool/salaries/

22.) 19 Jan 2023
19 Jan 2023 20:27:22
Ed14 ?? I’m not the one crying about someone disagreeing with my post! But what do I know, I don’t read the financials ?.

{Ed014's Note - me neither, I’m shite at maths ??

23.) 19 Jan 2023
19 Jan 2023 22:15:51
Salah1, you melt. You came after me personally in your first 2 comments, so i gave it back, and you went off again in both comments since then. The cheek to say I resorted to personal insults ? Don't give it if you can't take it. Your opinion literally means nothing to me because you added absolutely zero value to this thread and proved you are an insignificant troll. You went for low hanging fruit with your replies which is a clear indication you live for online validation instead of daring to be original. Grow up in future and maybe try having some civil debate. Offering to meet up for a scrap is one of the funniest things I've seen on here in 15 years. Anybody who has to act hard, invariably isn't.

Kopforever, go and download the clubs official financial statement instead of reading dodgy websites mate. The wage bill for the last 2 financial years was £314m (2021) and £325m (2020) which is way above 50% of the revenue for both years. Journalists pull estimated weekly wages for individual players, add them up, and then extrapolate them over a year trying to be clever when you can literally get the exact number from a public report from the clubs actual accountants. Journalists are not lazy, they're just thick.

Date went well Ed025, but the ring is staying away for now! Got to earn those jewels! ?.

24.) 19 Jan 2023
19 Jan 2023 23:06:40
??? yep I’m the one after online validation says the guy who sends essay after essay to prove his intelligence ?

Consider me a troll if you want, better than posting preachy and righteous posts every other day! Pretty sure others called you out on it the other day in the discussions page but sure I must be a troll for disagreeing with you.

This blew out of hand so you enjoy the financials and I won’t engage with you in future.

25.) 19 Jan 2023
19 Jan 2023 23:37:34
ARAY mate once you buy by spreading the transfer fee then it just shows what you pay at the time not the whole transfer fee which you posted above

Nope clubs like city Arsenal Chelsea UTD etc don't like stage payments coz it ties your future income and is pain in the butt hence ED002 warned us at the time and said it's going to hurt us in long run coz will be busy paying all this stage payments for player who we bought 4-5 yrs ago which doesn't make sense to tie our future income for that amount of time

Despite we are doing much much better then any EPL club except City in-terms of revenue and yet we struggle in-terms of cash flow compare to our rivals that needs to change or I can't see FSG, Klopp or both lasting much tho I hope I'm wrong about Klopp ?.

26.) 20 Jan 2023
20 Jan 2023 00:13:21
Salah1, zero posts on any page before you made your account to have a pop at me. So no loss there. If people find my posts preachy they can crack on being upset over nothing. If i cared what other people thought I would just lurk in the shadows with you.

27.) 20 Jan 2023
20 Jan 2023 08:39:05
Guys, let's call it a day, on this thread. Agree to disagree and all that. It's supposed to be fun (being on here), nothing is achieved with antagonization. ??.

{Ed025's Note - im with you ArAy..

28.) 20 Jan 2023
20 Jan 2023 17:50:10
I treat people how they treat me ArAy/ Ed025 ? I knew 99% of Liverpool fans would disagree with a post explaining that FSG aren't evil pantomime villains. If I cared about people disagreeing I wouldn't have posted it on here as I've seen the abuse Ed002 gets, but yeah agree to disagree. Water under the bridge as far as I'm concerned but if you give banter you have to take it. Although I will be at Centre MK shopping centre outside McDonalds wearing my LFC shell suit, at 2pm tomorrow for anyone who still wants to go! ?.