07 Apr 2023 16:28:32
Not perhaps the best season to be pointing this out, but I think Klopp is under valued as a great strategic manager - as opposed to a tactician. Ferguson and Wenger constantly faced the same criticism in European games. Journalists want a narrative from a game, and it is a better story if they can see a tactical change - and acclaim the victorious manager as a tactician. Italian coaches were superb at this, as were the likes of Mourinho, Benitez, Conte. But it's essentially about being a defensive, counterattacking team. Pep has generally undone his strategy in key cup games, when applying tactics - but when he sticks to his strategy, he wins. Klopp's strategy has unravelled this season as player burnout has made his game plan unworkable. But - with the right players - it is a very successful formula. Managers at top clubs with an emphasis on tactics generally have a short run of success before mentally burning out the squad, and moving on. A great strategic manager can mean that their teams have no "Plan B", but rely upon a formula that works along with the emotion of their play. I think this is true of Ferguson, Klopp, Wenger - who, if we are not being partisan, all had teams easy on the eye.

1.) 07 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 17:00:47
OP, it is interesting you mentioned Kloppp as being undervalued as a strategic manager. I remember watching a short youtube clip about Klopp going into the 16/ 17 season where someone who had known Klopp saying how Klopp had beaten Pep more times than any other manager (that is STILL the case) YET people consider Klopp to just be a motivational, charismatic character and Pep being more of a cerebral, tactical mind. Yet Klopp remains Pep's arch nemesis till this day.

The gentleman said that Klopp is quite the strategic mind and is able to work things out tactically to cause problems to the best of managers at the time whether it be Jose or Pep, two of the great ones at the time. For me, Klopp is NOT given the credit he deserves for being a tactical mastermind cos over time, I have seen how well we have adapted our game. You don't get to win every trophy the way he has by playing one way only. Like you said, his formula at a basic level works, fact.

As far as plan A or B go with Klopp, we can seen how Klopp has carefully and methodically evolved the way we play over the years esp. in the way we press, for ex. We went from pressing based on triggers, to pressing based on instincts which made us very difficult to play against esp. btw 18/ 20. For me, Klopp is a brilliant football mind. That said, he has his blind spots like every brilliant mind so it is what it is.

2.) 07 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 17:58:12
Great post. I suspect has the reputation of being a so-so tactician because he has lost an awful lot of finals. But his strategy gets his teams to finals, where he often is working with less expensive players than, say, Real Madrid. Ironically the only final we played badly in (against Spurs) we won. We had Real on the ropes last time round, but couldn’t score (which was becoming an increasing issue) . Trent was beaten at the far post, and - despite it not being an error - has never recovered his confidence.

3.) 07 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 18:16:36
I've waited a long time to see a post about the differences between strategy and tactics. Thank you. A good comment.

4.) 07 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 19:51:51
Monsterous, your suspicion may be more than valid BUT that is a simple or lazy conclusion to draw on. As from our performance vs Spurs, I disagree that we played badly. I say we played strategic football to win the final. I'll tell you why.

Remember when people said after the 17/ 18 that Klopp and the team needed to be a bit more pragmatic in their play and do more to secure the result? What happened in the final vs Spurs is exactly what people asked Klopp to do as in keep it tight once we took the lead and dare Spurs to break us down which well, they didn't. Jose won the CL final vs Bayern with Inter playing the EXACT same way and he was called a genius YET when Klopp did it vs Spurs, people said we played badly. So you see how Klopp can't win here?

IMO, Klopp played a masterclass in that final and did what was required to win and it worked. Further proof that Klopp is a tactical mastermind cos he did what NOBODY expected him to do in that final. As for RM, they essentially did what we did to Spurs after they took the lead in the final in Paris. I bet you had we taken the lead instead, we prolly pack it in and let them have the ball as well. Would it have worked? I guess we will never know. As for the whole Trent thingy, water under the bridge for me. Great convo, bro.

5.) 07 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 21:57:54
We got very very lucky we played Spurs. We definitely didn’t play well on the night. In the finals we have played under Klopp I can’t remember us playing really well in any. Some semi finals and quarterfinals of course we were amazing.

6.) 07 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 22:31:55
Mark, there is no luck in the way we played in the knock out stages of that comp. so Im not having that. We made the final thru sheer belief and hardwork and going b**s to the wall with NO F's given, end of. NOBODY gave us a damn thing. We earned EVERYTHING so don't try to play down all or take away any type of credit away from us winning that comp. the way we did which is the stuff of legends esp. with the Barcelona tie.

Oh and had we not gotten Spurs, we would have gotten Ajax who would have gotten slaughtered by us, IMO cos we were WAY better than them at what they did best. For me, We played well enuff to win that final by playing smart football and not playing open to let Spurs in. We took the lead and did to Spurs exactly what Madrid did to us last season BUT when Madrid did it, it was a masterclass by Carlo by many of our own fans. But when Klopp did it, it's "we didn't play well" schtick. U can't whine about playing well and NOT winning a UCL final and at the same time, whine about "playing poorly" and winning it. Pretty sure RM aren't worried about getting dominated by us last season and STILL winning.

7.) 07 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 22:49:01
I thought we ran Madrid ragged in last one and the 3-1 one till mo went off and Karius gifted them it. the spurs one we was bit lucky with the pen.

8.) 07 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 22:59:52
Agree Mark - we haven’t really ever looked like ourselves in Finals. I guess you can argue that it’s about the winning rather than the style of winning but we always seem to have a bit of ‘stage fright’ in recent finals.

9.) 08 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 23:36:57
Winning is what counts of course. Madrid know how to win and lucky for us we played Spurs a side that never win anything.

10.) 08 Apr 2023
08 Apr 2023 03:16:24
Tbh the nuance is too marginal for me. But what I am clear on is that Klopp, like many of the players, aren’t past it. Bad season. Terrible season. I think in a lot of ways the drive isn’t and hasn’t been there to resurrect this season. But next season can be a different story.

11.) 08 Apr 2023
08 Apr 2023 03:47:27
I always thought that tactics are what you use to execute your strategy.

12.) 08 Apr 2023
08 Apr 2023 08:54:23
If Klopp were available and a club or country were looking for a new manager there probably isn’t one in world football that wouldn’t be interested in having him.

And I think you can count on one hand other managers who are in that same boat.

That doesn’t happen unless you tick all the boxes.

13.) 08 Apr 2023
08 Apr 2023 09:15:38
taking it on face value, it seems he really still believes the squad and players are good enough quality to get back where we were.
I would like to think/ hope in the modern game this is backed up by analysis.
That there is no statistical reason Fabs looks like he runs in treacle. That TAA appears to put in zero effort at tracking. Or VDD is slower to react to anything.
It is actually hard for fans to make assessments as we see so little of players. But it is odd how polar Klopp’s views are based to pretty much everyone else.
What ever happens, this is the fascinating thing for me this season. I don’t subscribe to Klopp has favourites and is too stubborn etc.
you just don’t get to the elite level with those kind of childish attributes.
So he bases his choices on facts, his experience what he and his staff see. Which seems to be different to everyone else.

14.) 08 Apr 2023
08 Apr 2023 09:11:14
I may get slated on here for what I’m about to say, but kindly hear me out.
Klopp’s record in finals has no bearing on his quality as a manager. In a very large majority of the finals in which he’s managed his team have been underdogs, having achieved a lot just by getting to the final (think Dortmund vs Bayern, Liverpool vs Man City in 2016, Real Madrid in 2018). In recent years, however, when Klopp has had a squad able to match most in Europe, he’s lost a solitary final to a wily Real Madrid team under a manager fantastically adept in European competition. Klopp proves his quality as a coach on the way to finals, rather than in them.
In my opinion, the reason we underperform in finals is because finals are often decided by sheer technical quality, something we have lacked in certain areas no matter the overall level of the team. The likes of Henderson, Robertson, Milner are frenetic players whose values to the team lie in their energy, commitment and leadership, but lack the match-shaping quality of their teammates and many of the opponents they play in finals. We struggled against Chelsea for partly due to this. Despite being a better team overall, their midfield had much more technical quality and similar levels of energy, and they also had a coach that, for all his flaws, has proven to be tactically responsive and astute. We were lucky to win the first final, though unlucky not to win the second within 90 minutes.
With amazing quality usually comes cool-headedness and composure, more key elements missing from our team over the years (Mané was terrible for missing key chances, Salah is also bad for it) . I just think that, for a number of our players, Klopp’s brilliance as a coach has given them the platform to play in finals they otherwise wouldn’t, and so crossing the last hurdle to actually winning will always be a huge challenge.

15.) 08 Apr 2023
08 Apr 2023 09:15:38
taking it on face value, it seems he really still believes the squad and players are good enough quality to get back where we were.
I would like to think/ hope in the modern game this is backed up by analysis.
That there is no statistical reason Fabs looks like he runs in treacle. That TAA appears to put in zero effort at tracking. Or VDD is slower to react to anything.
It is actually hard for fans to make assessments as we see so little of players. But it is odd how polar Klopp’s views are based to pretty much everyone else.
What ever happens, this is the fascinating thing for me this season. I don’t subscribe to Klopp has favourites and is too stubborn etc.
you just don’t get to the elite level with those kind of childish attributes.
So he bases his choices on facts, his experience what he and his staff see. Which seems to be different to everyone else.

16.) 08 Apr 2023
08 Apr 2023 09:37:52
Mark, You play who you play. You win what you win and don’t win what you don’t win. Had we taken our chances and beat RM, would they still “know how to win”? Were we lucky to pummel vs Barca? Didn’t think YET we were lucky to get Spurs who beat Ajax, same who absolutely annihilated Madrid at the Bernabeau before that vs the same RM who “know how to win”? Then why didn’t they beat that youthful Ajax team as they were HUGE favs going in? Cos footie is NOT that binary, bro. That’s why we love it.

Spurs not knowing how to win is off HUGE non argument in that final cos our team hadn’t won anything either (in fact, we’d lost more) and had to learn how to win so all was even going into it. Even many of us thought they had a good chance and we were terrified of losing back to back finals esp to Spurs.

The pressure on the boys and Klopp must have been crazy BUT Klopp did a great job managing all that off the pitch and played smart footie to get the win. Again, brilliant man and crisis management and tactics by Klopp. Masterclass all round, IMO. Great discussion, Mark. Keep them coming.

17.) 08 Apr 2023
08 Apr 2023 09:38:34
The ‘tactical mastermind’ has played a high press tactic all season with midfielders who haven’t got the legs to do it anymore, and has watched the opposition stroll through our midfield at will, as they were dribbling past training cones. Genius!

18.) 08 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 10:22:00
Monster it was an error he was ball watching and did not see the real player behind him because of his positional play he was look towards the left back area . His confidence has not been damaged he is a very arrogant man.