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03 Jan 2014 16:35:23
balague tweeted tello ain't going anywere, i'm sure rodgers will add to d squad, whoever it may be . just have to wait it out . few players to come back from injury aswell so its not must right now, bigger picture, the right deal as appossed to d panic now deal is better

5 gold stars



28 Nov 2013 21:22:26
edd anyone shown any interest in izzaguire from celtic. I know it will be met with . " he plays in crap scottish lge etc etc"by folk on here. but the fella is a very good lb, doing it against barca and away to milan and a few other occassions in d champs lge, bombs forward and whips a gr8 ball in, can mix in short passes and could adapt to Liverpools game, just wondered if anyone shown any interest {Ed002's Note - There was talk of Manchester United last year but it was unconfirmed tittle-tattle. Since then nothing.}

5 gold stars

1.) Think he's a prem player anyway, spose barret reporting ayre in spain 4 montoya, u anything on that edd, think d left back prob is a big one 4 us {Ed002's Note - See previous answers. It may help to know that I don't stalk the staff of the club.}



24 Aug 2013 23:26:56
edd hansen reckons suarez will sign new deal this week. u heard anything on that? {Ed002's Note - Suarez has let a little information out via a "friend" to say the he will stay against his will one more year and then he will leave regardless. This sort of situation cannot be allowed to carry on but I think it will become more difficult to find a buyer with this sort of leakage of information to the media. We'll see.}

5 gold stars

1.) Bit naive Ed if you think players don't get things out there via favoured journos. {Ed002's Note - Would you like to try and explain where I am being naïve? Why not list some other players who have spent this summer dragging their club through the gutter, embarrassing the owners and the manager with repeated interviews, letting it be known that the other players in the team are not good enough etc., etc.?}

2.) Who is the friend out of curiosity Ed? I understand Cavani has done a lot of talking for him! Same with a few others. To be honest I'd rather sell him and buy two top top quality attackers. I think he's fantastic but the team seem better without him. I'd love to see Lamela play for Liverpool! {Ed002's Note - There is a name on one of the transcripts but it is not someone I have heard of or know anything about.}

3.) Hello Eds,
regarding your reply to Suarez situation. You say he will stay for one season and then leave regardless, does this mean he will like to leave even if we achieve European footy?
If that is the case I reckon we should do a deal with Real this season itself. We will have a nice guideline to get a good deal using the figure they are paying for Bale. I reckon we could get a good deal of around 45-50M + Caseimero.

{Ed002's Note - You really need to read the posts more carefully - I did not say that. The price of Bale has absolutely nothing to do with Suarez at all. And Real Madrid are not going to sell Casemiro who only joined them this summer.}

4.) Rooneys people and Bales people have got their message across quite clearly. That's just two off the top of my head. My point is all big clubs have problems of this sort from time to time. I respect your work (as I have said many times) but you always make out that Suarez's actions are somehow unique. Players are selfish and I know for definite that some senior Liverpool players take the view that for all his problems they are better off with LS.

5.) I agree with the editor on this one: having an unhappy, restless player in the squad (especially one as disruptive and divisive as Suarez) could be catastrophic. There seems to be a really good harmony and a work for each other mentality at the moment, I can only see Suarez damaging that. Unfortuntely it is very late in the window so selling him now is fraught with problems (i.e. can we find replacement? Will we need to pay more for said replacement a la Carroll?) which, thanks to Suarez (and I might add the club itself who knew the situation months ago) puts us between a rock and a hard place.

Honestly I wouldn't know what to do if I was the owner right now. IF we have already identified and intend to sign a specific player, fee agreed, then perhaps we can move him on but as that hasn't happened I guess, for better or worse, he has to stay. The only bonus (and I use the term lightly) is that as we have no European football a move in January for a sizeable fee is entirely possible.

The bottom line, however, is that Suarez has done huge damage to our club despite the steadfast backing and support he has received from both staff and fans alike. Its not good enough and ultimately I will be happy when he moves on. We've been let down badly, regardless of his ability as a player Suarez is someone we do not need or want (nor should accept) at our club.



20 Aug 2013 22:32:44
hi edds. just a query. with all the likes of arsenal and utd even us looking for creative midfielders . how come there seems to be little interset in banega? think sthampton wanted him. {Ed002's Note - Southampton and Fiorentina have placed bids for Banega and Inter Milan's long-term interest may still remain.}

5 gold stars




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04 Sep 2017 10:45:27
Eds, on the subject of valuable players running their contract down who are in demand, i. e. Can. Would it not be in the best interest of all parties for the club to offer a new contract with a very reasonable or low release clause (say £20 for Can) with 10% of it going to the player, triggered after a mutually agreed date?
At least the club would get something back from him, the player would get better pay for a year, a great signing on bonus and protection if he did get a bad injury last game of the season, and the low fee wouldn't put off potential buyers as they are getting a really good price.
My knowledge if contracts is limited so excuse me if this is a silly question. Thanks in advance.


{Ed002's Note - Why would the player even think of signing such a deal - and why is everyone here obsessed with various clauses? If a player is running down his contract it is in the best interest of the player and not the club. Clubs can easily sell if they want a financial return (and that may see a flurry of activity in January).}

1.) 04 Sep 2017 10:57:04
Ok eds, thanks for the reply.

{Ed002's Note - You are welcome.}

2.) 04 Sep 2017 11:11:48
I don't know much about players contracts but I would assume a player can get a larger signing on fee if they were to let their contract run down.

{Ed002's Note - Yes Amrit. Way, way larger.}

3.) 04 Sep 2017 11:29:21
Which is why a lot of players prefer to do that in the first place, Ed.

4.) 04 Sep 2017 12:30:40
If the club decides to sell doesn't the player have to agree to the move also?

If he is intent on running his contract down, there seems little that the club can do.

{Ed002's Note - Yes the player has to agree. But that doesn't mean that a January move is out of the question.}

5.) 04 Sep 2017 12:55:37
So coutsy signs a contact in Jan, 7 months later he gets slaughtered on here for wanting to leave to join a bouyhood dream club which would have also enable the club to get the worlds second highest transfer fee. Can refuses to sign an extention and people are worried about him going on a free and not getting a return back for 'everything we have done for him' . I can see after the couts saga played out exactly why he wouldn't sign a contract!

{Ed025's Note - i dont get all this its ok for couts to go to fulfill his boyhood dreams malarkey swish, hes a contracted liverpool player who is being a complete arse over this going to barca lark, he pretended to have a back injury then went away and played for brazil ffs, he is nothing more than a little traitor and should be booed every time he touches the ball by liverpool fans the scum bag..

6.) 04 Sep 2017 13:16:19
It seems s crazy situation. I can't help thinking we don't know the whole story concerning Can. I can't see us selling such a vital player in January, as we get to the business end of the season but at the same time I think it's mad to let s player of his quality to leave for nothing. He has been playing out of his skin so far this season and I hope he is pushing for a better contract. It will feel great if Can signs as he is a top top player.

{Ed002's Note - It will be that or the summer. This is again business as usual -there is nothing special about him or any other Liverpool players.}

7.) 04 Sep 2017 13:30:05
100% correct Ed,

How many lads would give anything to be in his place,

8.) 04 Sep 2017 13:33:00
Seems a bit excessive ed25, I'm sure a lot on here would have loved it if dijk had feigned a back injury if it meant we got him! Besides shouldn't you be booing Rooney after he left you to join his boyhood club :p.

{Ed025's Note - i certainly did at the time swish, they are paid enough mate so why sign a contract if you have no intention of fulfilling it?, for me has stabbed liverpool in the back and it could cost you the league in the end....and you want to throw flowers at the little pricks feet and wish him well...amazing..

9.) 04 Sep 2017 13:43:46
Spot on ed25. coutinho has let everyone down. transfer request on eve of the season.
Hope he apologises, so we can move on. What I would disagree is forever. We all forgave Gerrard afterall.

{Ed025's Note - gerrard gave his best years to liverpool though phil, couts has given very little mate..

10.) 04 Sep 2017 14:32:32
Have to say, I agree with ed025 here.

I think PC has caused a lot of damage and its a poor showing to say the least.

From what the eds have said, there was an agreement that he would give us another year and then get his move to Barca, now I understand that what he did was to push this season because they wanted him in now, but his actions in pushing for a move were totally selfish. Supporters of this club don't deserve it. Simple as. He's on a great wage and has been handed a lot by LFC. It no doubt added pressure in the transfer market and a lot of kneejerk reaction and precious time wasted thinking of a solution to a problem he caused.

In the same way I absolutely don't agree with how we acted in regards to VVD this year either, its not fair on the supporters of Southampton and has no doubt caused friction in the Southampton team and management, probably hampered the start to the season in some ways, but I actually think what he has done is another level above. Feigning injury is only really topped by Suarez who acted disgustingly. its a really shitty attitude on his behalf. Im very glad that his move has fallen through and he's forced to sit back and think about his actions and not get away with it, in the same way I hope the VVD saga has shown the supporters and management of our club that when you act inappropriately you must face the consequences.

11.) 04 Sep 2017 13:47:52
Hi Eds,
I've not had a chance to thank you for the updates again, so thanks. I'm a long time reader but don't post often.
As with everyone, I'm gutted about the whole Can scenario as he is proving to be a top player after we have stood by him for a while now.
Sorry if it has already been asked, but what is the big reason he won't sign?
Money? Guaranteed playing time? Position played? Club? Manager? Country? Fresh Start?
From previous posts it suggests it could be playing time, especially when we are looking to spend big money on Central midfield positions, but I just wondered if that was definitely the case? and whether Klopp will not guarantee him the playing time?

{Ed001's Note - it is playing time, Klopp has been buying players for the position he wants to play. The club think his future is in the holding role from what I can gather, so they are buying in expectation of him playing there. He wants to play central midfield and is unhappy that so many are being bought with the intention of moving him from there.}

12.) 04 Sep 2017 14:58:11
Thanks Ed,
What's your thoughts on his position? He seems to suit the holding role well, but he does have a good strike on him.
I guess he is a good box to box midfielder as well, but what are your thoughts on his best position?
If he goes in the summer, do you think we will look for a holding midfielder as a replacement, or is someone lined up for it? I know we have Handerson and Wijnaldum and some youngsters, but I think they play a different role than Can.

{Ed001's Note - he is more of a box to box player who wants to get in and score goals. Keita will replace him in the forward role, I assume the club will start the search for a new holding role throughout the season.}

13.) 04 Sep 2017 13:51:00
Ed25 never said I'd wish him well, just pointing out the hypocrisy surrounding one player not signing a contract and people annoyed he may go for free versus another one that did sign and annoyed when we could have got a huge fee for him. No pleasing some people!

{Ed025's Note - the thing is swish that can will honour his contract mate where phil wont..

14.) 04 Sep 2017 16:07:53
Forgive Gerrard for what?

FFS, he nearly single handedly got us to Istanbul, scoring important, top quality goals that no other member of the team could.
He was consistently our top player and was coveted bythe elite clubs of Europe,
LFC was / is in his blood,

players like Stevie G and Robbie Fowler are the best of the best because of their commitment to LFC.

I'm sorry but you can't Compare Gerrard with Coutinio.

He has shown as much disresoect for the club as the other 2 showed respect.

He is not fit to wear our shirt.

and Klopp has a simple choice whether to treat him the same as Sahko for Professional misconduct.

Or else the press should have a field day, and rightly so.

15.) 04 Sep 2017 17:25:30
One of your biggest fans ed25 but you've got this one all wrong. Couts had been a great servant to Liverpool for almost 5 years and deserves respect. What he's done is put his own interests above Liverpool's but he's earned the right to do that. I'm glad he's still a Liverpool player but I wouldn't begrudge him moving one bit.

{Ed025's Note - since when has a servant been on £100k a week putney?, and what makes you think he has the right to break a contract? or to feign injury?, hes a selfish low life and totally out of order mate..

16.) 04 Sep 2017 18:19:05
If we knew all the facts I might agree with you Ed, but there's far too much speculation and assumption going on. He gets the benefit of the doubt from me and if he's professional on his return then all's good.

{Ed025's Note - no doubt some will agree with you putney, myself i believe in loyalty and if his contract was up or if liverpool wanted to sell him then i could live with that, but it wasn,t and they dont...poor show for me mate..



03 Sep 2017 20:35:12
I might be on my own here, but I hate it when players leave on a free at the end of the contract. I understand that that is the nature of a contract and the player has fulfilled his side of it, but it just doesn't sit well with me. I see it as like they are selling the club short after all the club has done for them. Anyone else see it like this?


1.) 03 Sep 2017 20:48:49
Would be a bit miffed if we get absolutely nothing for Can. Personally though, I believe he will never want to leave after the season in store for us ;)

{Ed002's Note - are you miffed about Liverpool not paying a transfer fee for Matip?}

2.) 03 Sep 2017 21:08:33
Nope. As long as they've acted professionally during their time at the club and given their all. Its up to the club to reward them with a new contract and if not the player has to look after themselves.

3.) 03 Sep 2017 21:20:39
Come on Ed you know that a player coming in on a "free" is completely different, now stop trying to twist things! 🤣.

4.) 03 Sep 2017 21:50:38
Ed002 is absolutely correct and it's not just Matip, it's Marcus Babbel and Gary Macca. It's the bizarre double standards of football fans. Players who are not wanted are "dead wood" and fans are desperate for the club to dump them on someone else regardless of the fact that they are contracted employees.

If a player fulfills his contract with LFC and doesn't want to sign a new one, wish them well and move on. They should be judged on what they do on the pitch.

Signing a new contract is not cost neutral for the club. The player gets a signing on fee, the agent gets a fee, the wages go up etc etc.

5.) 03 Sep 2017 22:12:56
Not double standards Ron, I believe the same of any player for and club who is offered a new contract by the club they play for and turn it down just to make more money for themselves when they do move on a free. If a player isn't offered a new contract or there is problems with himself and the club then that is different, what I am talking about is greed. Players at top level football earn enough money with out having to deprive a club of a transfer fee just so they can get more money when they move. This is of course my opinion.

6.) 03 Sep 2017 22:25:26
Or why don't you assure him some playing time than shouldering blame on him? I would send Hendo back to Sunderland to play Can in that role!

7.) 03 Sep 2017 22:32:03
Meant to say "any club" above, not and. A good example is when mcmanaman moved to Real Madrid on a free, he was one of the best players in the world and we got nothing for him. Maybe this is what started this bitterness for me. 🤔.

8.) 03 Sep 2017 22:53:21
Nope. Disagree with you on this 5 Gold stars. A contract stipulates the beginning and the end of a employer/ employee relationship with all its terms and conditions (I'm no lawyer but I've signed tons of them) . If there is a renewal it has to be mutual, just like the initial contract, otherwise I don't see how any side owes anything to the other, once the contract is over. Every player has the right to get the highest financial reward for himself, while every club has the right to get the best possible player for the lowest possible reward. Isn't this how the professional football works? Ed002 is right with the Matip example. Matip was offered a new contract which he declined, as Can is doing here. And what about the young kids? A kid like Rossiter who grew up and dreamed of being a a first teamer. He gave enough years trying to develop himself and stayed loyal to the LFC setup. Why didn't anyone force the club to renew his terms instead of letting him join Celtic? The club did not see a need for him so they let him move on. Similarly, Can feels the need to be elsewhere. Once the contract is over, the reasons for non renewal from either side are really of no significance. And in Can's case, the man has fulfilled his obligations either equal to or far above expectations. So why create a situation where he is portrayed as some kind of bad guy?

9.) 03 Sep 2017 22:56:49
If Can plays plenty this season and doesn't sign the contract on the table then we know it's more to do with greed than playing time don't we. The move he wanted for his World Cup selection year didn't happen so there is no reason not to sign if he is playing regularly.

10.) 03 Sep 2017 23:22:02
It's a tough one. Personally I find it a little sad that we see players as employees who are simply fulfilling a contract rather than footballers who give their heart to play well for the club they love. Sadly those days are long gone (although perhaps not forever) and it is how it is. I agree that can should be given playing time but let's be honest, he has been given it. I find it hard to believe that liverpool will let a player of his quality leave for nothing and I guess we'll know by January.
Of course can has fulfilled his contract and been a pro but I understand fans frustration that the lad isn't dying to sign on the line.

I also agree that he is crazy for wanting to leave, LFC is one of the most exciting projects around.

On the other side of the coin he is a Rodgers player (I think) and not a klopp buy, maybe if he doesn't start it's coz he isn't what klopp has in mind. If cout's leaves next year I have faith that FSG will front the money for a decent replacement and if Can leaves then ce la vie we have kieta.

11.) 03 Sep 2017 23:38:43
I take it you meant to say you hate seeing the 'successful players' leave on a free? Lots of unsuccessful players are left go. It's an equal two way street.

12.) 03 Sep 2017 23:40:05
Fair enough 5GS, I appreciate your point of view.

Mine is aligned more with ra1969.

It seems to me we want players who are playing well for the team to commit their undying loyalty to the club whereas players who are struggling are draining the club and should go forth and multiply.

At the end of the day it's their career, can't blame them for wanting to get the best deal for themselves.

13.) 04 Sep 2017 01:12:37
Its what the bosnan ruling was about (I think)

Before clubs had nearly all the power over players, They owned the regestration of the player or something to that effect.

Maybe the Eds could help out on this please?

14.) 04 Sep 2017 02:56:52
Don't begrudge Can a move to Juve if the opportunity comes along. He signed a 4 year contract, will fulfill it and leave on a high after giving his all on the pitch. What more do u expect from him?
You want him to sign a new contract just so the club can make money at his expense? What if Can does sign a new contract and Juve then decide to go for a cheaper option? That leaves the player in a precarious position.
Can wants assurances Klopp cannot give so moving elsewhere is the best option for him. I for one accept his decision to leave as Keita and AOC arriving is a clear indication that can has already been replaced and the player was kind enough to give Klopp a one year notice.

15.) 04 Sep 2017 03:05:14
No one likes it but that's football. You can't begrudge a player being willing to run down his contract, he is also taking a risk, he could suffer a career ending injury in November and then no club would offer him a contract. If this is a problem for you consider how many other players who would like to stay have their contracts expire without being offered a new one, it works both ways.

16.) 04 Sep 2017 03:24:05
Double standards and hypocrisy? Are you lot mental? You don't need to be a hypocrite to be miffed by Can leaving for free. What next? We're hyprocrital for being miffed by conceding goals because we also score goals against opponents? Criticising fellow reds fans just for the sake of it has become somewhat of a sport in here.

17.) 04 Sep 2017 05:55:59
Absolutely agree with Robin in the Hood. I am miffed every time a Liverpool player leaves for free and delighted when we sign a good player for free. That is not hypocrisy. I am Liverpool fan, not the Secretary General of the UN.

18.) 04 Sep 2017 06:21:14
I'm not sure you can point to greed if he plays a lot this year 5GS. He knows Naby is coming in next year still and wants to play first team footy. Now if I was him I would consider my competition and be positive I. e. Hendo's injury, Couts likely to leave, Lallana nearly 30, Grujic and Woodbury not starters (yet), Gini is the only real issue for him as he seems to play every minute of every game but a mid if Can, Gini and Keita sounds pretty boss to me. Shame if he does leave because I could see him taking over captaincy from Hendo if he did stay and I don't see any other real candidates. Joe Gomez maybe?

19.) 04 Sep 2017 06:29:51
Gutted yes perhaps, but certainly not at Can. He's entirely within his rights to run down his contract, just as we are to not renew it if we don't want to. Why should he be obliged to sign a new one just so Liverpool can make some money on a sale? What happens if we then hold him to that new contract and not sell him?

I hope he does sign one, but only because I want him to stay.

20.) 04 Sep 2017 08:45:20
Yeah 5 GOLD, it is only you. You may not remember BUT this has already been litigated in the courts 20 yrs ago by a certain Jean Marc Bosman who is the reason players have the freedom to run down their contracts and make the money they feel they deserve and better their own lives.

As a result, players have no further obligation to do jack for a club anymore as the agreement has been fulfilled on both sides and if one side wants out, said party is free to do that. If the club wants to let Can go on a free, they are free to do that BUT Can is not allowed to move on as a free agent? Utter nonsense. This is professional football, my friend.

Can is free to do what he wants and it should not be a problem and never has been until you brought it up. He respected his contract, played his heart out for us, played thru injury to help get us top 4. What else do you want?



31 Aug 2017 09:42:37
Eds, in your eyes is it as simple as if.


{Ed001's Note - is this some kind of love letter about my eyes?}



30 Aug 2017 10:55:30
Not really sure about the hatred towards Coutinho. Yes he has wanted a move to Barcelona for over a year, but to be honest, not many players turn down the chance once the big Spanish clubs come knocking. The whispering in ears from friends on international duty is not a new thing, in fact our own Stevie G admitted it recently.
The only real problem I think we have is the face that he has missed the last few games. I don't know the full story on that, so will reserve judgment until I do. It maybe that he started with a injury, then klopp decided that his head wasn't straight to play for the first team. It could be that with the amount of cash on the table it wasn't worth risking injuring him just in case we decided to case in. What I am trying to say is that unless he refused to play or train then absence might not be his decision.
I have never seen him sulk or not give 100% on the pitch. All the info I have heard about him and his attitude have been positive.
We all want us to keep our best players, but how do we do that if we don't make them stay? Do we only sign potential world class players who only ever want to play for Liverpool? Can't see us finding many of those!


1.) 30 Aug 2017 11:04:42
No hatred from me, if he wants to go, fine, get the best price we can and bring in Lemar. He is a transient employee. Nothing more nothing less, the important thing is to rationally look at his ability and replace that like for like, so we need someone who has good vision, can score goals out of nothing and has good delivery at set pieces, which is Lemar. Him staying will be toxic for the club.

2.) 30 Aug 2017 11:14:49
Players come and go (and he may yet stay - against his will) . My only disappointment is him turning out for Brazil in this moment - but you're right, we don't know the full facts.

3.) 30 Aug 2017 11:22:49
If he stays then all should be smoothed over.
But come on, you can't say you've never seen him sulk or not give 100% on the pitch. You're right, you haven't been able to see it, becos he just didn't show up for the 1st 5 games of the season.

4.) 30 Aug 2017 11:56:27
Losing Phil Won't affect us as much as losing Suarez did, we've yet to get back to 2nd where Luis got us.
I want him gone for faking an injury. But At the same time if we kept him for 12 months 🤔 The team would look great.
So we can't lose really, aslong as we replace him if he's sold. Have to replace him. Vital.

5.) 30 Aug 2017 12:08:45
Hatred is too strong of a word to be used in football. There are more serious things going on in the world that hatred can be used to describe it.



28 Aug 2017 19:04:06
Hi eds, just a quick question if I may? On holiday in deepest darkest wales and little to no signal, just called for a quick pint and catching up on today's events while I have wifi. Is Keita going to sign before 1st sept and loaned back or is it some other kind of other deal that I am not familiar with? I only ask as I have a bet on that he will sign before the window shuts. Either way I am thrilled with this news and thanks in advance.


{Ed002's Note - I don't know the structure of the deal but it looks unlikely he will be registered this season. I imagine your bookmaker will be thinking the same as you as to how this pans out.}




5 GOLD STARS's rumour replies


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30 Oct 2017 00:23:49
Think the point he is trying to make is with all the Klopp out” noise from last week, we are essentially one win away from 4th and in good shape for the CL.
Oh how things change in a week!




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03 Sep 2017 23:32:04
Maybe a bad example Lucas, but you get my point.




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03 Sep 2017 22:45:53
I would personally like to see him get another chance. I don't think he did that bad for us when he did play. I know he didn't do so well on loan, but sometimes being surrounded by better players can bring the best out of someone. Wijnaldum didn't exactly shine at Newcastle did he.




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30 Aug 2017 19:51:22
Do you see a follow up bid tomorrow ed?


{Ed001's Note - no, I think they will wait and get him on a free personally.}



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30 Aug 2017 19:57:17
Don't compare to previous years transfer prices guys, this year prices have doubled. Tv money has made things crazy.





5 GOLD STARS's banter replies


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22 Oct 2017 19:43:45
Agree with Ward
Disagree with sacking Klopp
He is ultimately responsible for our defensive problems, but sacking isn’t the answer.




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10 Sep 2017 14:33:25
To improve the team you should always try and buy better than what you already have, then the player you have replaced becomes back up.




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08 Sep 2017 03:36:44
The thing is, he probably was tapped up by Klopp. Hope it comes to nothing and we learn to behave in a better manner from now on, the last thing we need is a transfer ban that stops Keita joining next summer.




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06 Sep 2017 07:19:35
Salah might be transfer if the season.




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05 Sep 2017 08:34:08
Judge him in January guys, maybe even longer. I personally didn't want him as I don't really rate him and I think the cash should have been spent on the defence (same situation as last year really with Gini) . But now he has signed we need to support him (as I have Gini) and hope that a new challenge will bring the best out of him. At the very worst I think we maybe over paid for a good squad player, but I am am optimist and hope that Klopp sees something in him that most don't. Time will tell I guess and we should give him that.