07 Apr 2023 08:23:48
Controversial post incoming.

We missed out on the league several times by one point and the narrowest margin in the CL.

If we had employed the same tactics again and lost again posters and fans and the media would be blasting Klopp for doing the same thing and expecting different outcomes.

So, he tried something different. No one expected it to be this bad clearly.

The problem has been the stubbornness not to change back but I think Klopp realised after the new tactics failed he didn't have the players to high press anymore so has tried a hybrid recently which apart from ManU game has largely failed.

Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. But pretty sure he realises his error and will sort out in the summer the best he can.

Right, I'll get my popcorn.

1.) 07 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 09:24:23
I don't care about them trying to change style of play. I care that they tried to do it and pinned it on the fitness of Thiago and Arthur.

We have plenty of players in midfield who can play a high energy press but only 2 who are comfortable playing keep ball; and both are well known to be injury prone.

Good post though. It's a fair point we needed to join City as we just couldn't beat them aside from the one season they took a year off. 1 league title in 5 years kind of says it all.

Only thing i disagree in is not changing back mid-season being stubbornness. You spend all summer in pre-season preparing tactics and conditioning based on your plans. Once they realised it wasn't working (probably about 10 games in) by then it was too late to change as the games were coming so thick and fast in this ridiculous season with a world cup slapped in the middle.

2.) 07 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 09:36:03
Leave the popcorn grab your coat.

3.) 07 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 09:50:42
I think we had changed the season we won the League. The pressing game was less frenetic and the midfield was hardly the most athletic. Saying that, the front three were fantastic pressers with great movement.
They all got older but we did also change to a more possession based game. That's not necessarily a bad thing but did we ever really have the players to do it?
I think we need to get the balance between attacking and defending with pace and keeping hold of the ball to save some legs.
Simple, eh? ?.

4.) 07 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 10:03:36
I hold the same sentiments with the second part of that post MK. My only grouse with that would be that there was time during the World Cup break to at least revert back to our old way of playing since a sizeable number of our players weren't away. We had the break, came back, and played the same way we saw before the break. That does have an inkling of being stubborn in trying to force the new system to work.

5.) 07 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 10:16:53
On a daily dose I am taking dog abuse for saying this 1j that we simply don't have the players for high press and Klopp wants to play it.

6.) 07 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 10:33:22
When the League is won or lost by a point then it comes down to a certain degree of good fortune and luck. That’s what I think anyway.

7.) 07 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 10:37:59
There’s been plenty of breaks during the season to revert / tweak. There’s also been a transfer window since that we chose not to use.

8.) 07 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 11:04:10
Dracred, true bit how many players did we have who were fit?

Kelleher, Adrian, Trent, Phillips, Gomez, Robertson, Tsimikas, Thiago, Ox, Milner, Elliott, Carvalho and Salah is about it.

Ramsay, Matip, Jones, Arthur, Keita, Jota, Firmino and Diaz were injured or just recovering and everyone else was at the world cup.

I'm not sure how much effective work could've been done with what was essentially half a squad (about 13 senior players) .

Playing a high press requires a lot of work in pre-season. For me it was just lack of planning. A lot of people last summer believed Klopp when he said we had enough players in midfield. But most of us weren't aware he was going to change the system completely in such a way that it would render players like Milner, Henderson, Fabinho etc as completely useless in a system they're totally unequipped to perform well in.

Whatever happens in the summer (going back to the press or signing players who suit the possession approach) i just hope Klopp and Lijnders get it right. I'm hoping a proper DOF helps them out big time and we can bounce back in a similar way Arsenal have this season. They're proof you can close the gap in one window with astute signings and trusting the process!

9.) 07 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 11:05:01
MK
It might be the fact the Ljinders and Klopp thought Elliot and Carvalho might help in playing possession football. Both are certainly not hard core running athletes!

10.) 07 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 12:42:01
Let’s just say klopp knows more than us. We had a long arse season last year and a short pre season, maybe the tactics incorporated that. Us city and Chelsea have struggled this year because of it imo, the difference is city have got a squad to cope better. Not a cat in hells chance last season anyone would of predicted this season or the current top 4. Forget the injuries or the new players trying bed in. All calling klopp too loyal or stubborn because things aren’t going well some of you even saying maybe time to move on . I’ve called lindjers out in the past but for all his failings I have faith in klopp to create a successful partnership with him. At the moment he is fighting every way he turns. He got problems with the team from one week to the next, the media on his back, so called experts ( no marks on talk sport etc) calling him out even some of his own fans turning on him and the team. We are where we are we have to deal with it and try and work through it. We have to trust him he turned us back into believers it’s our turn to let him know we stil believe. As for lack of planning you obviously don’t see what I see.

11.) 07 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 12:42:57
We played our last game before the world cup on 12th November. There was more than enough time to have had a midfielder signed on the 1st January. We didn't bother.

A new player in player that was willing to stick their foot in and spark some fires was needed to give everyone a lift and make a good fist of rescuing the season - a bit like Bajcetic did temporarily.

And anyone that says there were no available midfielders in January can do one. We stand to lose 50-100m in revenue as a result of not being in the CL.

Worse still, those midfielders we could have tried to sign in January will cost more this summer as United, City, Chelsea, Newcastle and Arsenal are all after a defensive midfielder this summer.

While a new player wouldn't have solved the tactical ineptitude on display at the moment, at least we would have had some tackles flying in like young Stefan did. This rubs off on others.

12.) 07 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 13:05:40
I really don't have a problem with mixing the tactical approach up, to certain games or within games.
By all means sit off and slow it down when necessary.
But we just haven't been able to react to other teams raising the intensity.
Once over, if they did that, it was playing into Liverpool's hands.
We need a squad mix that can do a bit of everything better.
But the PL being the PL, the stock requirements are pace, physicality and an ability to press. There's not really any getting past that.

13.) 07 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 13:13:37
The players who achieved so much these last few years obviously downed tools this season due to inflated heads and ego’s. They thought they had made it and where untouchable and quite clearly 80% of the team took their foot of the gas and stopped putting any effort in whatsoever. Unfortunately there is a lot of players who have tarnished all they achieved by doing this and they now look like a bunch of whinging moaning crap at football toddlers. Obviously Klopp should have signed better players than Carvalho Elliot Tsimikas Melo and maybe even Gakpo who I don’t think is ever going to set the world alight, but where his hands tied by the owners. Realistically carvalho and Elliot should have joined the under 23’s but where thrust straight into first team duties. At the end of the day there will be nobody who avoids blame for one of the shoddiest seasons in living memory and it is time to boot out some of these inflated egos from the squad come the summer. And get back to players who work hard and put there all out on the pitch this group seem to be saving there all for something else or have just decided to have and easy life travelling about kicking a football about whilst being pampered like a bunch of massive pre Madonna baby men. They are all now no longer footballers but Millionaires who once won a few trophies.

14.) 07 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 13:48:39
Str8talker - I don't believe the players have stopped working. I think they have stopped believing in what they are being asked to do. Should they do better? Yes, absolutely.

I do agree there is a bit of sulking in there too. Perhaps some of the big players feel that after last years exploits we shouldn't really be in a position whereby the squad has been allowed to become stale.

Klopp needs to turn those re-doubters back into believers again.

15.) 07 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 14:18:06
Maybe Harry, but Elliott and Carvalho are just kids. So that would still be poor planning in my opinion.

16.) 07 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 14:45:53
I’m not a footballer or a football manager so I’m largely speaking from an ignorant viewpoint.

But is it really that difficult to change tactics mid season? You would think a professional footballer at this level of the game would be able to switch it up and change if required, it’s not as if they are robots who can only be programmed once a year in the summer. Most will have worked under several managers in several different teams, playing several different tactics.

Also, We have all seen teams including Liverpool change tactics mid season when a manager is sacked and another comes in and changes things up, not always a complete change but a heavy tweak so to speak, so it’s hardly unheard of that a team changes tactics half way through a season.

And with Liverpool this season I can’t see why we couldn’t have reverted back to our winning formula because until the summer that’s how every player played, so they know that system and what to do inside out already, and you could argue all our players know how to play the old system much better than the new one.

Not to mention we had a unique break in the winter this season to change it up as it was clear and obvious the new tactics were not and would not work.

So yeah that’s my viewpoint based on ignorance mainly but I honestly can’t really see why Klopp has persevered with these tactics so long into the season.
I don’t know if it’s being stubborn, not having the right players fit or something else but footballers are generally more clever than they are given credit for to be honest, I wouldn’t put money on them completing a crossword but when it comes to tactics they generally know what they are doing, they are not mindless robots who are hanging off the managers every word and command and don’t know how to play a different way if required.
If you speak to any footballer for any length of time about tactics you will see they usually know how different teams set up with different formations and tactics because they need to to play at the highest level.

17.) 07 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 15:31:49
I wouldn’t mind us having City’s struggles this season.

18.) 07 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 15:46:36
MK, I agree with parts of your post and parts of that of the OP. Klopp thought it was the best way to go in order to mitigate against the physical and mental effects of last season. However as I have said several times, Klopp gambled one time too many and it cost him dearly. The players are not and do not believe in what they are being asked to do cos it simply does NOT suit them hence, the idea of downing tools is just fantasy, IMO.

When all is said and done, Klopp messed up whether it be with the shift in tactics (since 19/ 20 mind you) or with squad management over the past 4 years. He trusted people foolishly who let him down. He’s human and has his flaws. Let’s see what happens next season when he will have another chance to right his wrongs.

19.) 07 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 15:50:44
1985mikey - fair point and not ignorant at all.

It seems to be the way Klopp works. He commits to a squad and a tactic in pre-season and continues with it, rain or shine.

I don't know why that is and you are right that other managers are quite happy to tinker with tactics game, never mind in season.

On the pressing - you need to be fit enough to play like that. Fitness needs to be built over a sustained period. So I don't know whether it's as simple as a switch. But, you're right in that they had a mid-season break during the world cup to work on fitness if that was found to be lacking.

I genuinely think they thought they would be playing lots of low block teams this season, hence the tactical change and gamble on physicality and fitness. And instead they have been surprised that almost every team is happy to run over or through us at every opportunity. Even the bottom half teams know how to break out flimsy press and attack our backline this season.

20.) 07 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 16:03:36
Finishing second by a point on a couple of occasions to a world class city team is not a reason to fundamentally change the way the teams tactics is set up, especially when in that same period they made us the concurrent English, European and World club champions. The energetic tactics were a fundamental culture of the club that was taught through the youth, academy and the first team, giving a consistency that allowed for more effective squad rotation and for the team to be greater than the sum of its parts. I understand your sentiment, but moving away from that model which brought success and the fans clearly loved is nothing short of lunacy and incompetence. You don’t need to change to improve, just get better at what already made you great in the first place.

21.) 07 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 17:17:39
Fully agree there, Westwood666. The high press, high tempo, No F's given style was what brought us success. We honed and modified that system over the years to stay ahead of the curve and won the lot doing that.

You want to change tactics or slow things down? Okay, great. You can do that and STILL stay true to your roots and fundamentals by getting the right players in to facilitate the shift W/ O going away from our core values. That stuff normally takes time, for starters. BUT to think we could do that in one preseason before this season of all seasons W/ O having the players to play it and help facilitate its transition is the stuff of rank amateurs.

I can understand Pep Lijnders being in over his arse BUT Klopp does not get that pass. He is a smart cookie and a top class manager, one of the very best to ever do it in the PL and at this great institution of ours. He should have known better and this idea should have been DOA: Dead On Arrival.

22.) 07 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 18:56:34
"On a daily dose I am taking dog abuse". Harry, what you've never understood (and still don't) is that what you're always saying is never the problem. I don't think anybody minds. It's always the way you say it. You find ways to get on people's nerves, real fast.

23.) 07 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 20:23:57
Don’t worry Harry I still love you ?.

24.) 07 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 22:03:53
What quality forward planning do you see S John?

25.) 07 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 22:22:10
As Ed001 said, we tried to become more like City, without any understanding of what City actually are. They still press hard, even though they are better on the ball than us. Other managers have done the same poor imitation of Cruyff and Guardiola before, in fact all of Dutch football did, which is what Pep Ljinders is a product of. The early 2010's tiki-taka nonsense has come full circle, as has Klopp. The replacement and antidote for Brendan has ended up becoming Brendan.

Our success came from adapting our style anyway. The way we played at our peak was far more possession based than early Klopp, and less focused on pressing. We had already made that change. We have pushed it so far beyond the threshold of common sense that I still can't wrap my head around it.

As for the comment about effort, I'm not even going to entertain that notion. Some people still seem to believe it's everyone's fault, apart from the managers. Reminds me of tabloid speak in the 2000's when England would get knocked out of a tournament. 'It must be an effort issue, they don't care'. Such a lazy and hurtful observation to make. Have you ever considered that they're just crap?

26.) 08 Apr 2023
07 Apr 2023 23:30:22
This is absolute garbage. Klopp must be a complete idiot if he thought he could beat City at their own game. Klopp read the room completely wrong. He messed up the pre season, hadn’t realised some or most or his players were on a downward trajectory and then dug his heals in, stubborn beyond belief. Continued to play high line, with a midfield that couldn’t press a fire alarm in a burning building and you get a mid table side.

27.) 08 Apr 2023
08 Apr 2023 15:13:27
Funnily enough, i think a big part of the reason we lost finals is because we did tweak things. I’ve never seen us play like our normal selves in a final under Klopp. Even the ones we won we were poor, I think we’d have been better just sticking to plan A and we’d have won more

Always felt like whenever we were in a final we didn’t really go for the jugular, but we didn’t park the bus either. It was this annoying halfway house where we were tepid going forward but still vulnerable at the back.