28 Jan 2023 15:44:18
I want to throw a theory out there and see what people think.

Our problem is not the midfield.

I’m saying this because I refuse to believe that midfielders who have been unbelievable for years and have come the closest of any English team in history to a quadruple can suddenly lose their legs and become rubbish between May and August.

The biggest changes we’ve had between last season and this season have been in the forward line. Obviously losing Mane who played centrally in the second half of last season but also losing his replacement Diaz on the left.

Added to that Jota and Bobby haven’t been playing either so we’ve lost 4 players who know the system, when to press, when not to press, how to press, which runs to make and when.

Nunez isn’t bad at pressing but he tends to do what I call a Daniel Sturridge press. He does it but doesn’t really want to. It’s not done with intensity and aggression like a Mane or Diaz would.

This then allows the defenders time to get their head up, play a pass into midfield with no pressure leaving the midfielders fighting fires which they are unable to put out.

It also means that when the midfielders get the ball they just don’t have enough options because we have too many players making the same runs, the wrong runs, or just not making themselves available for a pass.

I know I will have people who have made up their minds and will tell me that the midfield has been mismanaged and they’ve lost their legs etc etc but I just don’t believe that Fabinho, Thiago and Hendo in particular can go from being so good to being so bad in a 3 month period.

I’m not saying I’m some tactical genius who knows better than you guys I’m just throwing a theory out there. One thing I do know is that Klopp and his team are better at analysing games than anyone on this site and they will know where the team is falling short much better than we do.

Maybe the signing of Gakpo is to help in this area as that’s where they see the problem is.

Go easy on me it’s just a theory I thought was worthy of discussion.

1.) 28 Jan 2023
28 Jan 2023 15:57:58
Too much nonsense going round your head pal. Get yourself a beer and chill. Listening to klopp too much I feel.

2.) 28 Jan 2023
28 Jan 2023 16:07:00
I take on what you have wrote regarding the midfield and I'll he honest the rate of the drop off is alarming to say the least and I can't come up with a reasonable excuse as to why. The forward line unfortunately I disagree with you on, in my opinion manè was on the decline and whilst he was scoring goals when he moved upfront last season he had seemed to have lost his spark (atleast a yard of his explosive acceleration) and the move through the middle suited him greatly and with diaz coming in cashing out on manè was in my opinion the correct thing to do. Whilst we have missed jota and more so diaz this season I still not sure the midfield would have been up to the task. As I said earlier it's alarming to say the least the drop off but I think Liverpool under Klopp work as a well oiled machine and if one part isn't upto scratch (I'm not saying for sure this is the midfield btw) then other parts look more broken than what they actually are. Anyway again like you just my humble opinion and I'm sure others will have many other more rationale opinions than me.

3.) 28 Jan 2023
28 Jan 2023 16:09:42
Mane helped the midfield for sure and maybe they wouldn't be so exposed with our previous forwards. But times change and the new forwards offer a lot of different things we should be excited about.

It's about finding a new balance that works and right now our midfields performance is the biggest issue preventing a good consistent team performances. Not the only but the by far the biggest IMO.

4.) 28 Jan 2023
28 Jan 2023 16:40:43
The first step is to admit it is not one single thing that has contributed to what we are seeing. As I see it, and has been discussed on here many times by many posters, the following things have contributed:

Evolution of the system/ tactics started in 20/ 21 season with the purchase of Thiago, presumably to give us more variety with the ball than Gini offered. A sensible idea at the time.

This evolution was stalled because we had a CB and midfield crisis by November meaning that the intended Hendo-Fabinho-Thiago combination only got to play half a game together for the whole season. Yes, half a game - versus Everton - where Thiago got assaulted by Richarlison and spent the next 3 months out.

Then in February Henderson tore his groin in the derby defeat at Anfield, ending his season and in my opinion his top level career.

Nevertheless somehow Klopp managed to land on Gini-Fab-Thiago midfield which managed to keep the ball away from Phillips-Rhys CB pairing to secure us a miraculous 3rd place. Gini's contract expired but the Captain was rewarded with a new long-term deal.

The talk in the summer of 21 was that we needed some legs and availability in the squad given Gini's departure and the injury records of the existing midfielders. Bissouma was clearly a target (Ed001 was a big fan if I recall) but his private life was an understandable deterrent. Neuhaus, Wirtz were linked but nothing happened. It turned out Harvey Elliott had a brilliant pre-season and did enough to the club that he should be given a chance in midfield.

The evolution of the style really started in 21/ 22 with Trent's position changed. He was tucking into midfield (presumably inspired by City's use of Cancelo), releasing the right sided midfielder to push on and overload the right hand side - coinciding with Salah's rich vein of form. Then Harvey got injured and Hendo (post season ending groin tear) was asked to play this more advanced right sided midfield role.

That is where things started to unravel. Trent stopped overlapping and choosing to hit first time attempted assists, giving up possession more often than we're used to. I assume that change is intentional and not Trent being lazy. Hendo's advanced role and Trent's strange positioning made our right side of defence a clear weakness of oppositions (see Leicester away game) .

Despite trying Naby, Harvey, Hendo and Ox in this new more advanced right sided role, nobody has been able to play it well given the amount of grass you have to cover when the ball is given away, which was often. This has led to Fabinho being dragged all over the place when that is not what he was signed for. He was signed to be the lighthouse and be the base of the formation that pins in the opposition - as per the 19/ 20 and 20/ 21 seasons - enabled by the high line.

Lots more happens after this but this is the start of the change.

I didn't intend to write half an essay but the revisionism of previous seasons really frustrates me.

5.) 28 Jan 2023
28 Jan 2023 16:50:30
After posting this I noticed that Ed1 posted something similar below.

I’m not for one minute saying I’m right I’m just saying that this clamour for any midfielder that seems to be on the move might be a knee jerk reaction and we are missing a bigger picture.

That would make more logical sense than to simply say a midfield that has performed so well for so long has just lost it in the space of 3 months.

6.) 28 Jan 2023
28 Jan 2023 16:54:28
I think there's been too much thought put into conserving players energy for the condensed/ odd season because of the world cup and that none of the players - not just in midfield - are as fit as they were in previous seasons. I'm not having it that they have all just miraculously turned rubbish in a short space of time, I just believe someone has overthought the training regime. Was talking to my mate last night - a City supporter - and he was thinking along the same lines for his team. All that talk from Klopp and Guardiola about having to play too many games has finally gone to their heads and they've let the players ease off.

7.) 28 Jan 2023
28 Jan 2023 17:09:04
Thanks Pelican, I was beginning to wonder had anyone else seen the tactical change with Trent and the right sided center mid starting a couple of seasons ago. I think in addition to seeing what Man City were doing with Cancelo it was designed to let Trent make more use of his range of passing and make Salah harder to mark, as he'd often have more room on the right flank if we wanted to try pulling wide as well as going towards goal.

That tactical tweak actually pushed further this season imo. Elliot in particular has often pulled entirely out to the RW position whilst playing there, and there have been games where we've set up looking more like a 4231, and that's as you say has pulled Fabinho and the other central mid (usually Thiago, but sometimes Hendo) into a central midfield two. This has hurt Fabinho in particular because he doesn't have a whole career's experience of central mid play to call on and he isn't adapting to the having to cover more space. Although, as was pointed out to me on another Liverpool forum I frequent, he's had a few niggly little hamstring and quad injuries over the past couple of years and has had to be dropped straight back into playing nearly every game after recovering from them. This might have taken some physical toll on him.

Where you and I differ, is I don't think Hendo is finished. I think if we revert to what we had before the change on the right - so Trent bombs on on the overlap and Hendo covers the space, he should still be able to do that and do it well. He doesn't need to cover a million miles of ground to do it, he just needs to be tactically aware (which he is, he played as a no.6 for us for 3 years and did so reasonably well) and press where appropriate. That's why I want to see him play in the more straightforward midfield three we've used in the last two games, to see does that help him recover his form.

We do need at least one if not two central midfielders. Ox is done, Milner's 37 and I've made my views on Keita clear many times. Although potentially a fine player, I don't think Elliot is a central midfielder, and Jones can't stay fit and can't get games to see can he progress into someone who's good enough for us. So even if Henderson and Fabs can be brought back to what they were 2 years ago, we effectively only have them plus Thiago and Bajcetic (and he is only 18) that appear dependable at the moment. We don't sign someone and Tyler Morton is going to find himself with very big shoes to fill when he comes back.

8.) 28 Jan 2023
28 Jan 2023 17:14:27
johnny1970 - there's probably something in it. If the rationale for a system change is to do less running then psychologically that immediately takes a percentage off your intensity.

Klopp does talk a lot about too much football and not enough time to train. However, when he's given it, we regress.

But I will caveat that with the fact that Klopp himself has a sports science qualification, so I hope system changes have not been communicated in a way to undermine the performance within it.

9.) 28 Jan 2023
28 Jan 2023 17:44:34
Injuries, too many games last season, short pre-season, confidence, more injuries and evolving tactics all have surely played a part. As Klopp said this week it's been hard for Salah as there is no settled front line. I disagree w BP's post couple days ago and believe that we should have signed a mid in the summer. We were on top and needed to evolve to stay there. Stand still and others pass you. Hindsight is of course 20/ 20 but I don't think it would have hurt to sign a mid. Do we throw the kitchen sink at it this month? Only if the right player is available which doesn't appear to be the case. It's been a strange season. Only Newcastle United and Arsenal have kicked on from last season. City like us have also declined quite a bit. Hard to be top dog year after year w the same players. I'm sure it takes a mental toll.

10.) 28 Jan 2023
28 Jan 2023 17:55:47
Something Red - it's ok to disagree on Hendo. Personally, I think even if we put him in a more reserved role, the guy cannot get close to opposition players anymore, never mind make a tackle. It's hard to admit this about the captain. We had similar conversations about Gerrard when he was struggling in his final days.

On Hendo, I'll go one step further. 37 year old James Milner is physically superior to this version of Jordan Henderson and should be ahead of the captain in the pecking order.

Dont choke on that one.

11.) 28 Jan 2023
28 Jan 2023 17:57:40
There were glaring issues in the midfield last season especially towards the end but anyone who mentioned it was gaslit and told their eyes were lying to them and because we almost won the league and CL it meant the midfield was fine. Even if there were no issues with performances a lot of them are old or injury prone it was the perfect time to start some succession planning but we didn’t do a thing about it. There was a reason fans were saying we needed midfielders in the summer. You could see the drop off coming a mile away it’s just been even worse because of the injuries up top.

12.) 28 Jan 2023
28 Jan 2023 18:10:25
Football is the most simplest game ever invented!

" When we have the Ball we all Attack"

"When we don't have the Ball we all Defend"

Is there any game more simple than that! as Shankly often said "look after the little things, the big things look after themselves"!

13.) 28 Jan 2023
28 Jan 2023 18:10:38
OKiss I don't think many of us foretold the drop off or the magnitude of it. It's more than just a midfield issue. We haven't gone from frontrunners to mid table because of our mids.

14.) 28 Jan 2023
28 Jan 2023 18:13:03
Thanks for getting involved in the post guys there’s some very interesting points there.

Red flyer I’m not sure what point of mine you disagreed with, perhaps when I said it was safe to assume that the current midfielders could see us through this season until our preferred targets become available? I still stand by that. We finished last season very well there was no reason to believe that the same players could not perform in the same way.

That being said I do believe we had a serious interest in Tchouameni before he went to Madrid so we were obviously looking for real quality in the midfield positions.

The Bellingham saga has been going on since before this season too so the search is still obviously ongoing. What pleases me though is that we are after real, real quality. We are not willing to compromise which I believe will stand us in good stead even if it seems painful right now.

I think the consensus of opinion is that it’s a combination of a lot of things, injuries, loss of form, changes in tactics, amount of games, the players we have not fitting the new tactical plan etc etc.

So with that in mind are we better to splash some cash now on a player or players that might not be the best players to get us to our end goal but might improve us this season or wait until the right players are available to slowly improve things and be a better team in 1 or 2 seasons time?

15.) 28 Jan 2023
28 Jan 2023 18:19:31
OneKiss - it was glaring to some but not all. The successful winning runs were understandably enough to gloss over that.

If we look at the facts today, we have a lot of midfielders in the squad, none of who can complete 90 mins, half of who are injury prone, most who do not have the physicality to play in a Premier League midfield and a third who are a little too young to be relied upon. In addition to this, they don't seem to be the right type of midfielders to fit the system we are trying to play right now.

Go figure.

16.) 28 Jan 2023
28 Jan 2023 18:20:00
100% the mid is the problem the team has no legs it’s left Trent to the wolves because he’s bombing and being caught at the back!
Fabs has fallin off a cliff!
Hendo blows out his arse after 50 mins his legs are shot
Ox and Keita no words!
Milner can be as fit as he wants I know 50yr olds that run marathons and are fitter I’d not leg them near my team!
Jones is championship level at best!
Leaves carvalho and Elliot who are getting flung into the deep end and out of position.
Baj is a shining light and only a kid one bad game and his head will be gone with the abuse he will get from the trolls!
Thiago is Great but no legs he’s doing a job he shouldn’t be doing!
That mid is in bits and the tactics are making it worse!

17.) 28 Jan 2023
28 Jan 2023 18:32:46
An aside on Klopp's thinking on midfielders in general.

We ended up with the functional but effective first choice midfield three of Fabs, Gini and Hendo somewhat by accident.

Klopp has consistently looked to get a more attacking player in there. When we first settled on that system at the start of 16/ 17, the first choice players were Henderson at no.6 with Gini and Lallana either side. Lallana acted as the player who'd carry the ball out of midfield and at times make the front three into a front four. He did quite well in that role until he got injured, and we never really replaced that role in the team. Klopp tried replacing him with both Ox and Keita, neither worked out.

He was probably looking to try it again with Elliot this season.

18.) 28 Jan 2023
28 Jan 2023 19:08:16
Something Red - there definitely seems to be some muddled up thinking somewhere. Going after Tchouameni suggested that Klopp has identified a different profile of player to add to the midfield mix so who knows really!

What we can't escape from is that we need to win duels and we need to coordinate the pressing again. We are not doing that right now.

19.) 28 Jan 2023
28 Jan 2023 16:22:27
People said this after 3 games. 19 games in that theory has gone
We’re 9th mate. Brentford are above us.

20.) 28 Jan 2023
28 Jan 2023 19:58:00
There seems to be many different theories but the over riding one that I hear is that the midfielders are crap and have lost their legs and it’s all FSG’s fault for not seeing this coming and signing more midfielders over the past 2 years.

I think Klopp is the best manager in the world he’s built 2 teams at Dortmund and Liverpool that have been the best in Europe on much less money than the teams he was up against. The man is not an idiot.

If it was as obvious as that then he would’ve done something about it surely? He’s not beyond reproach by any means but he’s not stupid either.

FPF you put forward a compelling argument I actually agree with part of it and OneKiss has apparently seen this coming for ages when Klopp obviously didn’t.

It just seems odd to me that FlyPelicanFly, OneKiss and others know more than an elite manager who’s won everything in the game. Perhaps it is Klopp that has lost it and FSG should look no further than these pages for their next manager?

21.) 28 Jan 2023
28 Jan 2023 20:25:16
BP - and you were doing so well.

Now we’re back to posters “knowing better than Klopp”.

22.) 28 Jan 2023
28 Jan 2023 20:32:01
Nice post Becker. I tend to agree with you. In addition to forced changes in our attack due to injury, Salah has contributed to this as well. I feel like he's constantly running into the first defender he encounters and gives up the ball early in our attack/ transition when we are vulnerable. In addition, I don't remember him pressing and winning the ball back as much this season. I'm not saying it's his fault, nor that the mid isn't part of the problem, but I agree that our midfield isn't THE SOLE problem we have.

Mostly just wanted to say nice post/ theory.

23.) 28 Jan 2023
28 Jan 2023 20:59:54
I didn’t mean to offend FPF it’s just an observation. I really am curious as you seem to really have a grip on the issues that our team is going through and you have had for a considerable time.
You are so vociferous with your opinion that nobody can question you. Do you truly believe what you say to be the absolute truth with no question or is your theory just that, a theory?
Because if you truly believe it then it’s you that is saying you know better than Klopp not me.
Honestly mate no offence intended I’m not trying to get into an argument with you again it’s pointless.

24.) 28 Jan 2023
28 Jan 2023 21:05:31
Beckers. Mate.

If it's going to ultimately distill down to 'well none of us know better than Klopp' then why bother having the conversation?

If decisions Klopp makes, as well as those made by many other far better qualified people than us, including that Ljinders chap that we're not supposed to like anymore, cannot be discussed or disagreed with then what do we talk about?

It's clear Klopp did consider midfield in need of reinforcement anyway, as otherwise he wouldn't have pursued Tchouameni, to a point.

25.) 28 Jan 2023
28 Jan 2023 21:44:17
Absolutely SR it’s a matter of opinion and everyone is entitled to have their own.

I’m just curious as to why some people are so sure that he’s ‘mismanaged’ the midfield and that this is to blame for all of our ills.

My entire post was trying to look at it from a different angle and trying to theorise what Klopp sees as the issue because he’s clearly not seeing what FPF, OneKiss and you are seeing.

26.) 28 Jan 2023
28 Jan 2023 21:48:25
Good to see you add some sense here SR mate! We should all close the site Including eds coz we aren't qualified after all ??.

27.) 28 Jan 2023
28 Jan 2023 22:00:37
Bloody hell there are some long posts in there.

{Ed025's Note - i know its like war and peace das, on second thoughts its just like war mate..

28.) 28 Jan 2023
28 Jan 2023 22:12:40
I read your original post BP and I’ve seen how many people have commented on this thread. I haven’t read all the comments yet, I’ll aim to read them tomorrow.

What I can say BP, is that whether people agree with you or not, you make some cracking points which are obviously good enough that people have to comment on them one way or the other.

Top stuff, well done mate. I’m looking forward to many more debate inducing posts in the future. ??.

29.) 28 Jan 2023
28 Jan 2023 22:55:01
That’s what it’s all about Ed25 we are having a good old debate and to be fair pretty much every poster has an opinion and most have their own theory to back it up.

I might not agree with people like FlyPelicanFly for example but I can’t deny he backs up his opinions very well indeed and he sticks to them.

At the end of the day nothing that’s said on here matters one little bit it’s a place where we can vent, share opinions and disagree with opinions but I hope I’m right in saying we all want the same thing which is the club we love to be successful.

{Ed025's Note - i do like a good debate BP, but some of the over the top negativity does get on my tits i must say mate..

30.) 28 Jan 2023
28 Jan 2023 23:17:22
I certainly can’t take all the credit for my opinion. It’s built on a mixture of what I have been watching and the excellent input/ observations from other posters here and the Eds (even Ed25 speaks sense sometimes) .

Why can’t Klopp see it? I’m confident he can now. His tone has changed a lot since the Brighton debacle.
Why isn’t he fixing it? Maybe he is but not in the way or as urgently as we’d all like. Why? Could be his choice or could be due to other external factors.

Time will tell.

31.) 28 Jan 2023
28 Jan 2023 23:12:45
Yeah I know what you mean I do get frustrated with it sometimes and post things I shouldn’t which then just fuels more negativity! I probably shouldn’t bite but where’s the fun in that?

How things with you? Happy about Dyche? I think he’ll get you out of trouble but I can’t see him being there long term unless he evolves his brand of football.

{Ed025's Note - best we could have hoped for in our situation BP. If and it’s a big IF he keeps us up then hopefully we can evolve under him as we aim for mid table obscurity mate.. ?

32.) 29 Jan 2023
29 Jan 2023 00:06:45
Sorry FPF I don’t mean to antagonise you any further but I have to get this out before I burst.

You say your opinions are formed by watching games and various posters and Eds on this site which is fair enough and very good of you to say.

However, I do take issue with the statement ‘why can’t Klopp see it? I’m confident he can now’.

Like somehow you watching games on the telly and reading posts on a forum means you spotted the issues way before he did but finally he has seen what you knew all along.

He only has decades of experience in football, training and managing players, winning trophies, he sees the players every day and sees the sports science stats daily on every player, knows each player on a personal level, studies tactics to the minutest degree with a team of tactical experts yet he only spotted the blatantly obvious issues last week that you’ve know about for 18 months!

Sorry like I said I don’t mean to antagonise you but that just really tickled me. You are a decent poster and you do put your posts together very well, better than I do in fact but there are some serious flaws in your thinking.

I apologise if I’ve misread that but based on your previous posts I don’t think I have.

Take it easy mate let’s hope you’re right and Klopp has finally got it and our performances improve as a result.

33.) 29 Jan 2023
29 Jan 2023 00:50:36
fans like easy things to blame - harp on about an individual player, blame the owners, blame the coach, blame the ref, blame this and that. But I fully agree that our problem isn't the midfield on its own.

I made this point when Mane was departing that Diaz would need an adjustment to really replace what Mane does for the team else we change our style. and then with Nunez coming in, nothing changed for me. It would need time for the machine to gel again and this is the case.

We never destroyed teams based on one over-performing unit in the team. it was always a collective unit that was difficult to beat as a team. We need to get back to that, not just look for a saviour to come in and fix everything. having that kind of thinking really shows that you haven't been watching the team develop all these years.

34.) 29 Jan 2023
29 Jan 2023 01:08:45
BP - let’s just see how it goes eh?

35.) 29 Jan 2023
29 Jan 2023 01:18:40
To be honest Faith I’ve had about 100 theories in the past 6 months I just can’t fathom how the midfield could be the issue after performing so well for so long. A gradual decline is inevitable with age but a nose dive from one season to the next doesn’t make sense to me.

I think some people listen to Sky Sports pundits way too much and take what they say as gospel. When they hear Carra and Neville say it’s our midfield they swallow it when the truth is it’s much more complex than that.

My original post was just 1 theory that would make the most sense in my little brain.

Can I just say thanks to all who responded I knew I’d get some people disagreeing but that’s fine we all have our own opinions.

And especially to FPF, peace mate love you x.

36.) 29 Jan 2023
29 Jan 2023 00:26:15
I think you’ll stay up Ed I think he’ll get you going. There are teams in the league with worse squads than you lot have unfortunately.

It’s been said before but the issues you guys are going through makes our bad season seem trivial. We always need to be aware that just splashing money about is not the route to success, in fact it can mean the exact opposite if not done correctly.

{Ed025's Note - absolutely BP..

37.) 29 Jan 2023
29 Jan 2023 05:22:24
The simple answer is that it appears FSG cannot or won’t provide us with the budget we need to compete at the top end of the table. That mixed with players woefully out of form, bad tactics at times, injuries abs an unbalanced squad. When we were at the top FSG should have supported us more. Time they moved aside for owners with deeper pockets and more ambition.

38.) 29 Jan 2023
29 Jan 2023 06:25:39
BP - I think people hear gegenpress/ heavy metal football then they say Liverpool players running all over the pitch and then they put it together and think all they’re doing is being supremes athletes and running a lot. It’s insane

I think where you’ve landed is closer to the truth. We are a team in transition, have new players in positions that are really key for our identity whilst seemingly trying to adjust our identity all at the same time.

39.) 29 Jan 2023
29 Jan 2023 08:45:19
There's a reason certain types of people are called "armchair experts".
Question for those who know better than Klopp and can point out all his mistakes - why aren't you running a football club instead of sitting in your armchair claiming that you know better?
The answer is very simple.

{Ed025's Note - it is flash...they just haven,t had their chance.. :)

40.) 29 Jan 2023
29 Jan 2023 12:52:14
I agree with the OP. It's not JUST the midfield that is failing. The same as it's not JUST down to Lijnders or THAT book.
I also agree with Faith with people needing something or someone to blame.

41.) 29 Jan 2023
29 Jan 2023 15:51:29
Klopp out then lads and take lijnders with ya.