02 Sep 2026 15:00:12
Gravenberch slander is lazy analysis (just like the Isak slander concerning his few touches). We are talking about a box-to-box midfielder being paired with an attacking midfielder, namely Szoboszlai, in a double pivot. This is unlikely to work against any decent opposition. If there are midfield shortcomings, it's because midfielders such as Gravenberch are asked to fulfil unfamiliar roles that go against their natural impulses (example: asking a ball-carrying box-to-box midfielder to play the role of a destroyer).
One way to solve this problem would be to introduce Nyoni, and move Gravenberch or Szoboszlai out of the midfield pivot.
{Ed001's Note - didn't Gravenberch play exactly that role before his move to Bayern? He certainly isn't a box-to-box midfielder, which is the role he failed miserably at in Germany and initially with us, before being reborn as a holding mid. It was so unfamiliar that he won Prem's young player of the season playing there and was pivotal to our title win. The lazy analysis seems to be yours.}
02 Sep 2026 15:59:32
Gravenberch and all Liverpool's midfield got found out and exposed in the second half of Slot's first season.
Opposition teams initially targeted Trent and Konate and tried to hit us on the counter-attack.
They all then realized it was much easier to just run and drive directly through our midfield and onto our centre halves.
We have a squad of attack-minded midfielders, who don't like to tackle, don't like to head the ball and are not defensively minded.
Gravenberch was the biggest culprit.
02 Sep 2026 16:16:25
Gravenberch was good before his dad piped up and said he should get forward and score more goals.
02 Sep 2026 16:17:11
Maybe someone needs to either have a word with Grav and tell him to sit and stop shirking out of tackles or he gets replaced by Nyonyi to see if he does it better. ?♂️
02 Sep 2026 16:20:30
Gravenberch was also in the PFA team of the year as a DM, he also was used as a defensive partner for VVD last year, when Konate was subbed frequently. It will be interesting to see where he plays for a Jurgen German side in the next batch of Internationals (Flo as well).
Regarding Isak, Opta tells us he had only 13 touches of the ball in 90 mins. They are not an "Intuitive Principle" but Opta facts, like his passing accuracy at 63%, that's sloppiness or a careless attitude, his dribbling stat of 10% is horrendous, he's had 10 dribbles, and succeeded with one dribble (and that was probably a half time toilet), 14 apps last season, 3 goals, 1 assist, of course he was a permanent pick for Slot, as if Hugo had not been severely injured, he would be on the subs bench now, and he also bottled a penalty last week, he got away with murder with Slot, he won't get any days off with Andoni.
02 Sep 2026 16:23:57
I remember it well Molby, teams running through us at will on our way to 18 wins, 4 draws and 4 losses in the 26 games before we won the title against Spurs.
Seems like lazy analysis is catching.
02 Sep 2026 16:25:16
Grav has to revert back to the 6 role and the responsibility that comes with it. I don't really care what he wants to do going forward. His future at the club will certainly be at stake if he wants to be anything other than a 6.
He doesn't have the skill set for an 8 or 10.
Andoni can't be soft with some of these lads. None of them are superstars. Grav can be an excellent progressive 6.
Dom also has to improve as an 8.
02 Sep 2026 16:26:23
Double pivot, triple pivot a full pirouette — I don't care what way you want to describe their position, they're CMs, and if they can't understand "one goes, one stays," they need a kick up the arse, end of. It's no more complex than that.
02 Sep 2026 16:26:48
It'll be hard for Grav to play for Klopp's German side since he's Dutch. ;)
02 Sep 2026 16:37:21
Thanks Dracred,
As my old teacher often said, "Always check your work," Bond, but is it not a 50% success with reference to Flo? Although it is a job half done, I would confess.
02 Sep 2026 16:39:45
Like others have said it's simple. If Grav won’t do the job that needs to be done, the one he is actually good at, he will find himself out of the first 11. He didn’t do it last year; he got away with that because of the hatred for Slot. We're only two games in but so far he’s not doing it again this season.
I don’t mind him running with the ball but do it when you know your partner is behind you to offer protection if you lose it. Don't go off on little slaloms when you can clearly see both Dom and Wirtz ahead of you.
02 Sep 2026 16:40:26
007, he’s Dutch so not playing for Klopp's Germany.
02 Sep 2026 16:40:50
Professional footballers should be able to play any role or position on the pitch by the time they hit their 20s. It’s only football, not rocket science.
You’re only asking him to play the 6 rather than the 8 as well, something he can do, has already done to a high standard and should be doing now.
He’s either being instructed to go forward or he’s not listening to instructions to stay back. Either way it should be an easy fix for Grav.
02 Sep 2026 16:30:02
007 I will also be very interested to see where he plays in Jurgen's German side...
Seeing as he is Dutch.
But thanks for sticking up for him.
Too many on here slag off or players if they have a bad game.
02 Sep 2026 15:49:27
You can bring up Bayern Munich, and I can bring up Ajax and the Netherlands national team. Also, the role of a six in a three-man midfield differs from the role of a six in a double pivot.
02 Sep 2026 16:22:00
Agreed Ed001. The amount of people here with memories like goldfish is shocking. I wonder do half these posters watch football - they certainly don't understand it. Imagine writing something as daft as the OP and then talking about "lazy analysis". Face-palm worthy stuff.
02 Sep 2026 16:57:07
Riosstepover, I watch every game.
He doesn't tackle, doesn't win second balls, gets run past easily, doesn't win headers, doesn't pass very well and can't read the game defensively.
He does drop the shoulder and turn well with the ball, I will give you that.
He will definitely be nowhere near the team of the season this season the same as he wasn't last season.
02 Sep 2026 17:04:17
He’s the best drop the shoulder and turn weller in the world. ? Smooth as silk. It’s everything else that’s the problem.
02 Sep 2026 19:09:10
Pivot seems to be the latest buzzword.
Last season couldn't move for low blocks, thought I was in a game of Tekken.
02 Sep 2026 19:12:26
Exactly, Florian. The one thing he does really well and teams have sussed him out.
02 Sep 2026 19:43:04
I don’t think there was any player from Liverpool near the team of the season last term, not just Grav.
02 Sep 2026 20:08:57
Szoboszlai was. That's about it.
02 Sep 2026 21:00:33
That makes sense, Florian. ?
02 Sep 2026 22:43:28
I disagree with most of that, Molby. I think it’s been more of a defence issue and in particular a VVD issue. It was telling that Szob and Iraola said after our first half on Saturday, we needed to be closer to the opposition (as in higher up the pitch) to get pressure on the ball.
If you watch that second half, VVD and Jacquet are pushed right on to the highest Forest player, which allowed us to condense the pitch which in turn allows us to get closer to the man in possession and win the ball back early.
Against Newcastle, we had VVD and Jacquet standing on the halfway line marking nobody when Osula picked up the ball halfway into his own half and had the space to run at them. If they’d been 10-15 yards higher, they could’ve tackled him immediately and got us back on the attack. As it was they backed off and Newcastle scored.
It doesn’t matter who you have in midfield if the gap between the defence and the midfield is as wide as we leave it.
Prime Makelele couldn’t patrol that space.
The CBs need to be much more front footed in their defending. Push right on to the last attacker and engage him in his own half, but VVD has been terrified to do it because he doesn’t want balls in behind that he has to chase.
The irony is if the CBs push up and be aggressive it means that we can condense the pitch and maintain pressure on the ball, which doesn’t allow the opposition to get their head up and pick a pass over the top. So by pushing up and leaving more space behind us we’ll find that we actually have to do less running.
Klopp’s teams did it and yes it meant that occasionally the opposition got in behind us but by and large the risk is worth the reward. It means you can win the ball high where our most talented players are and can do the damage.
02 Sep 2026 22:59:04
Gravenberch was a bit of a revelation when first moved to the 6, but he was at the base of a hard working midfield 3 that functioned as a unit. Now with Wirtz at 10 and a double pivot, we need another disciplined midfielder to sit alongside him, and I’m not sure at all that plays to Szoboszlai’s strengths? The problem is Szoboszlai is a big player for us and seems to be quite a prominent leader in the dressing room too, so very hard to drop.
It’s probably the biggest question for AI to solve IMO.