16 Feb 2015 12:43:12
As regards Rodger's favoured style of play, i keep seeing that people are convinced that he will somehow revert to the possession/slow pass stuff at nearest opportunity. I love reading different opinions on here but do people genuinely believe that BR is that short of intelligence?? Some people take longer to learn, especially stubborn ones?
I can only assume he knew his head was, and maybe still is on the block for the way things went during the first few months. As another poster mentioned, it's unlikely he could hope for a "better" job unless he considers managing Levante or some such team as better. In other words, i think the guy is learning and although it might be a bit later than it should have been. If he wants to continue managing a huge club, then i see him doing what's best for it, and himself.
I agree completely King.
I think appointing someone with his experience was the wrong move but now we have done that I don't think after 2.5 yrs in the job he has been terrible.
And I would also say that there are lots of positive signs that he will be a success in the future, so why don't we allow him to continue?
I would rather know that he is absolutely not the right person before getting rid.
I am nowhere near that view at the moment.
16 Feb 2015 13:14:29
I certainly think he took too long in reimplementing this high intensity pressing game again. However, if we can't control possession whilst using this tactic then fatigue becomes a real possibility as we get into the business end of the season. There needs to be a good mix of when to press and when to slow the play down in order to rest and control.
Rodgers hasn't yet got this spot on in the early parts, but there needs to be more than just a 'high press' for success over a season. Particularly when we play 2-3 games a week.
If he can find a way to combine his preferred methods and the ones we have seen relative success in, then I think he can do a fantastic job in terms of winning titles and trophies.
I do genuinely beleive Rodgers is that short of intelligence, yes.
His press conference comments alone could justify that opinion. He has started all 3 seasons at the club with the same boring and ineffective style before changing it too an effective style in January.
A better question would be to the Rodgers sympathisers; What has Rodgers atually done to convince you he won't make the exact same mistake he's now made 3 years in a row?
I don't even agree with Ed001 that he is a good coach. I've watched Skrtel, Agger, Sakho, Lovren, Ilori, Gerrard, Sahin, Shelvey, Alberto, Aspas, Moses and Yesil regress under his coaching. I think he is tactically good when his job is on the line, but even then only offensively. Defending is still part of coaching. His fluent style (he one he reverts too every January) seems to suit certain players and he does definitely improve players technically. So what, should I praise him for raising Skrtel's passing accuracy to 93%? Because that's wht I want from my centre backs isn't it. I couldn't care less how much he improve players tehnique. He coaches flair out of people in order to retain possession and doesn't have a clue how to coach defensive awareness or positioning. Thus we are poor defensively and can't break down teams who park the bus due to over playing it. He relies on talented individuals rather than good team goals.
He is a limited coach, a shocking manager, a useless judge of a player, and a PR disaster. A good run once a year is not going to rose tint my opinions. Sorry mate. That is my opinion and I'm not fickle enough to change it every week. I'll give him credit when it's due but don't ever confuse that for affection.
16 Feb 2015 14:33:44
He is a fantastic coach, if you believe the likes lf Markovic, Sterling, Can, Coutinho, Hendo etc have all just magically improved because they have talent then ok, but it's naive. I'm not sure who you think he's coached flair out of? You listed a bunch of names there, and I can't see your point? Some he's helped, some were in decline due to injury or getting to the end of their career, others still young, the likes of Moses has done nothing anywhere else he's been? I'm not sure what your point was on this? Maybe I've misinterpreted or just not understood this part, I don't know.
Using what he says to media as a guideline for intelligence is also in my opinion stupid. Does he sometimes say things he shouldn't or say things too bluntly? Sure. I'm part of the group that believes there are definitely times players need a kick up the arse publically if they aren't responding privately. Not defending how he does things, this is my first mention of his PR antics on here, because I think fans make more of it than anyone else.
I'm not asking, nor expecting you to change your opinion, it's your opinion and your entitled to it. But I think you're laying blame at Rodgers' feet on a few things there, that are maybe a little exaggerated.
EMS - Fairly said. I always enjoy reading your comments because you're clearly pretty knowledgeable about the subject and i don't profess to be. We all just want to see our club do great things.
I'll admit that my posting about keeping our current manager is mostly from a better the devil you know standpoint, but for the life of me i can't see why the next guy that comes along won't be promising the earth to the owners aswell, with no guarantee of producing it. It's a damn nice job to get to be fair.
I just don't want us getting another Hodgson!!!
He is THAT short of intelligence. Why? We have living proof of this because in 3 seasons in a row, he has played that dreadful system for the first half of each of those seasons which got us nowhere ESPECIALLY this year where had he just stuck to it and played on-form players, we woulf NOT be 16 points or so behind Chelsea because the core of the team from last year was still there apart from LS (which he knew would be sold so no excuse there). Those are not opinions. They are facts because they have been proven as evidence which is why, we do not trust him UNTIL he proves us wrong on that matter. As EMS said, a good run every half a season proves absolutely NOTHING and we don`t have time as a club for such ditherings and lack of direction because we will NEVER win the PL at this rate. Prob for him is it my be too late because if the owners drop the hammer on him (due to his failure to redeem his promises of which 4th place was NOT one of them, based on the Ed`s info), then we will never know.
I think he is a good coach and although he opens his mouth a bit more than I would like I want him to stay whether we get top 4 or not
Big E I think most of those players have improved purely because they've gotten older. Sure Rodgers has improved their technique but they all still have flaws in their games. Watch our team around the penalty area. They look scared to lose possession. That is what I mean regarding the flair thing. There is rarely any creativity, particularly in the first half of every season.
Moses scored 13 goals in a single season for Chelsea before he came to Liverpool. Rodgers actually sent him backwards by forcing him to be less direct.
Sahin was running the midfield for Dortmund and Madrid before Rodgers sent him backwards.
Gus Poyet got more out of Borini than Rodgers can manage.
He has sent Lambert backwards as well.
I think he can improve players in terms of control and passing.
In terms of tactical awareness, flair, discipline etc though he is useless. Hence why he has never improved a single defender.
You list Can and Markovic as though he's elevated their game when both players were better for their previous clubs than they were for us until recently.
16 Feb 2015 15:25:33
I think he is a good coach, not a fantastic coach at all. Big E as you stated players like markovic or can or hendoo are doing great because of him is totally unfair. They are good players to begin with, the have a lot more potential, so its not rogders who made them world class in a day, any decent manager would have done it. Yes if you are comparing him to Hodgson, Rodgers is fantastic buy compare him to a decent manager he is not even close. I will agree with Ems that the defensive part of his game sucks, he could not sort that out after 2.5 yrs. him playing players out of position is unreal. I can keep on going for days and will not be finished how many faults he has. But on the other hand I think he has the potential to be a very good coach (not a manager), if we get a DOF and rodgers can only concentrate on the coaching aspect of the players he will come good. This job is too big for him he could de a good job if sorts out his defense (first thing every manager should do) and just plain and simple coach player to improve as a team.
16 Feb 2015 15:30:23
I understand where you're coming from here, but I don't agree that players just improved due to ageing. They may have a more matured and cultured mentality which in turn gives them that mental boost to learn further, but the coaching aspect has to be there.
Can and Markovic have excelled out of their natural position, both very tidy players prior to joining, undoubtedly. But their marked improvement must go down to astute coaching particularly in the tactical aspect due to these guys being employed in unfamiliar positions and still playing very well.
Moses is at Stoke now, and if I'm not mistaken, warms their bench frequently. Why didn't Mourinho want him? Why isn't he a star for Stoke? That isn't down to Rodgers.
Borini for me is an enigma (the situation) because I like the guy, think he should have had a few more opportunities. I believe this is just mismanagement not poor coaching.
Lambert was always a plan B type. He was never going to improve or maintain saints form. I'd suggest he's also been a touch infortunate to play when our midfielders for what ever reason weren't making the necessary supporting runs, they are now.
Sahin, for whatever reason didn't work out, he was employed slightly deeper than maybe he would have liked, but for me he didn't show maturity or character when he did play. He certainly hasn't hit anywhere near the heights he did prior to his injury. Likely didn't help his cause when he was with us.
As for flair, I think that's a case of age often showing in decision making. Coutinho, sterling, Ibe, markovic. All capable of beating a man, pace, trickery. Sometimes try one too many tricks or turns, sometimes want to beat an extra man. Other times seem afraid to run defenders. Sturridge's return also brings flair to our attack, he certainly isn't afraid to run at defenders.
{Ed001's Note - Moses has been Stoke's star player in a large portion of the season, injury kept him out for a while, but other than that he is a starter.}
16 Feb 2015 15:32:08
That is understandable Can Ibe the King. If your girlfriend was putting you through hell though, would you stay with her incase the next one was worse? :/
I cannot, and will not accept "mediocrity" to coin a phrase from Ed002.
16 Feb 2015 15:47:23
EMS,
Moses, Aspas, Alberto, Shelvy, Gerrard? Are you serious?
Alberto can't get a game for malaga
Moses is still crap for stoke
Aspas was and still way to light weight for this league
Gerrard is just getting old get a grip, he was a genius last season when it worked with gerrard at a deep lying playmaker position.
Shelvy? he is still as inconsistent and rash as ever at swansea and has done nothing since moving to show his "improvments.
Sakho? is improving every game (get a grip)
If you think the french league where Sakho was dominant for PSG is the same as the PL then you should re think that.
Agger? injury prone and never could defend under any manager.
Skrtel has always been bad in my opinion and actually after watching him for 8 years or so it is just this season i feel good about him in the line up when we play 3 at the back.
Sahin btw was the one bitching like a girl because he was played out of position (which he actually did very well in scoring twice and creating 3 other goals) and demanded to leave to play in DM for Dortmund. It hasn't been going so well for him or them since.
16 Feb 2015 15:51:47
My mistake re: Moses. Didn't realise he had been injured.
Crazy horse, Markovic had been called a flop early season. Henderson had plenty of criticism until last season. These guys aren't developing purely by themselves. There is 100% a coaching influence.
Although, many may disagree at this level of football. But playing players out of their comfort zone actually helps to develop them tactically. Sterling will be better for playing wide, centrally and up top. Markovic from playing both wing backs and centrally etc.
Admittedly, his defensive coaching obviously needs help or work. That I can't really argue. Although we haven't done too badly of late!
{Ed001's Note - to be fair, I am still not convinced Moses is that good, but he has been a definite starter and one of their better players. That is why Assaidi came out here to Dubai, as Moses kept him out of the team.}
Adam, can you refer me to any comments the same or similar to your comment
"He is a limited coach, a shocking manager, a useless judge of a player, and a PR disaster" during ANYTIME last season even during the so called bad start to the season, I await with interest. If you do/can I will hold my hands up and say well done you spotted it much earlier than most.
Adam, the palyers you quote facts about;
Moses scored 13 goals in a single season for Chelsea before he came to Liverpool. Rodgers actually sent him backwards by forcing him to be less direct. Yes he was playing in a flying Chelsea team
Sahin was running the midfield for Dortmund and Madrid before Rodgers sent him backwards. Why did Madrid let this guy go then if he was running games?
Gus Poyet got more out of Borini than Rodgers can manage. Maybe that down to Borini being intimidated by playing for such a big club and playing for Sunderland lightened the pressure on him allowing him to play better, that is Borinis problem not Rodgers.
He has sent Lambert backwards as well, Lambert has probably gone backwards but maybe that due to him not playing as regularly (as i'm sure was intended by Rodges in the first place) and therefore his confidence has dipped leading to performances not as good as when he was an automatic choice for Southampton.
Also, you state about younger players naturally getting better as they get older but fail to use the same reasonong for the players who have got, let's say less effective as they get older, Agger and Gerrard to name two.
Im not saying you are wrong about all but I think you are overly critical in a lot of instances where Rodgers is concerned.
{Ed001's Note - I agree in the main with what you say, but the Borini one. If the manager is not able to do his job and lighten the pressure on one of his young players, then that is his fault not the players. If the player simply isn't good enough, then you can't put the blame on the manager, but if a player is just not playing as well as he can, then that has to be partly down to the manager. It is his job to manage that after all.}
I agree with Red Ramsis in that the players you use to prove your point about Rodgers not being a good coach are harsh to pin on him.
Have Yesil's two ligament injuries been caused by Brendan Rodgers?
And it's not fickle to have one viewpoint and change that viewpoint when presented with evidence to do so.
It's called wisdom.
Nothing wrong with that.
If we lost every game between now and the end of the season then based on the evidence provided I would agree with your hypothesis that Rodgers is pants.
Also the coach can only improve a player if that player wants to improve in the first place.
I give the example of Enrique, a player who has not improved 1 jot in my opinion since he has been at the club.
Is that down to coaching or the players well documented attitude?
I took massive abuse last season for criticising Rodgers use of Gerrard, Skrtel and Mingolet as well as how poorly he utilised and got the best out of his players. This may suprise you but I was the first to question Gerrard in defensive mid on this site whilst all the No. 1 fans called it a stroke of genius.
I can't remember a time since he's been here when people haven't been criticising his press conferences or his transfer dealings. I took so much abuse last year for questioning his managerial and coaching ability though. I'll forgive you for not knowing as I think you're a relatively new poster.
Search under my old name ; YNWA! (Adam) or YNWAdam
16 Feb 2015 20:49:34
I have to say it is far too easy to put the manager down when things are not going as well as we'd like. Last year, he was brilliant, got adulation and manager of the year. Not exactly mediocrity was it? I think too many people like to jump on the band wagon. BR has made mistakes, but we are better than before he got here.
16 Feb 2015 21:20:05
Yes Adam you did criticise Rodgers use of Gerrard and other individual criticisms but nothing as all encompassing as
Limited coach
Useless manager
Useless judge of player
PR disaster
As I said earlier , I actually don't disagree on all you say but I think you have gone over the top.
Best thread I've read on the site so far.i change my opinion all the time over many of the issues discussed due to the information gathered on here. I used to be 100% behind Rodgers but I'm now beginning to see the pitfalls pointed out by eds. Certainly there are areas to improve upon for Rodgers.However if we look where we are now, our form and squad we should be pretty excited about the coming seasons. I'm failing to see the point on previous players? Would you prefer to have Moses, shelvey, aspas, sahin in our team now? For me all clubs need to improve and be looking to do so in every area. If you don't you be had it. Yes changes are needed but drastic ones are not required.
Football is about results and if we continue to get them and win some silverware all this will pale into insignificance