26 Jul 2015 11:34:53
Allen, Can and Henderson are not defensive minded midfielders.
Allen doesn't come deep enough to show for the ball and often passes and runs instead of passing, wanting it back and dictating the play. He is also weak in the tackle.
Can has potential to be a defensive midfielder as he has played CB on many occasions and can be disciplined. In midfield though, he likes to run with the ball and use his strength and pace to cause problems for the opposition. However, he has a lot to learn positionally and technically before he can fully adapt to demands of the CDM role.
Henderson has always been an attack minded midfielder throughout his career. Only last season was he asked to play a more disciplined role, but he's not one who dictates the play with quick, snappy passes in midfield, and he's not a defensive midfielder either, despite his willingness to work hard and press the opposition.
If Allen was at Chelsea, United, City or Arsenal, he wouldn't make the bench. I feel for the lad but that's a fact. If Can was at one of those clubs he'd be played in a box to box role like Yaya Toure. Henderson would be played in a similar role, either box to box or in a more attacking role. In no other top premier league club would you see any of those players sat in front of the defence dictating the pace of the game with their passing.
So how many defensive minded midfielders do we have? The answer is 1. Lucas
How many playmakers do we have? I don't mean attacking playmakers who feed the forwards, I mean central midfielders that dictate the passing in midfield. Players who always want the ball and run the show in the middle of the park? The answer is, None. Lucas can do a job playing simple passes, but he doesn't dictate the game and is often slow in his movement and passing.
Therefore, we have only 1 senior central midfielder at the club. And he's injury prone. Why are fans not concerned about this?
When we played a midfield of Allen, Henderson, Milner, Lallana and Ibe in preseason, We effectively fielded 5 attacking midfielders with 3 of them playing out of their NATURAL position. Notice that there was not one defensive minded midfielder on the pitch, neither was there a deep lying playmaker on the pitch.
Problems in defence? I think not.
Red Rum
26 Jul 2015 12:26:06
People wouldn't agree to your post as they just don't want to rather than accepting truth. It has been like this from years.
Ed01 would deco agree to your view and its spot on mate.
It's quite hard to make people understand the fact.
We criticized BR through out last season for playing players out of their position, yet people want to try different names on different positions leaving with no difference between us and the manager.
We have no playmakers in the middle since Alonso and that's a hard truth.
Milner wouldn't go the Chelsea team as they got in one with Ramirez and y would they need another one,
Wenger simply cannot play Milner at the center replacing Carzola.
Glad someone actually find the difference between Henderson and Modric.
Your point regarding Lucas is spot on, one injury and then it's all expire ends shoring players to that role which Wenger tried with all his players from 5 years with no results at all.
We should have bought two players at the expense of anything.
Medal and Kovacic ( or a central midfielder )
Could you tell me where would Henderson play at Chelsea?
He could only replace Oscar at the very best.
26 Jul 2015 12:31:00
Red-Rum - "Therefore, we have only 1 senior central midfielder at the club. And he's injury prone. Why are fans not concerned about this?"
Because the signing of Benteke means only one thing - we are abandonining orthodox 4-3-3 and about to adopt 4-2-3-1 as our standard formation with the back pairing in midfield being Henderson and Milner.
26 Jul 2015 12:40:55
Red Lenin
Forget the formation mate, the motto of the window is pretty simple, score goals and that's it.
He convinced people in U.S, the lack of goals are the hard factor of us crumbling down.
Without Lucas this team won't survive. He has to play at the expense of any other notable names to balance the squad.
26 Jul 2015 12:59:43
I disagree with most of what Red Rum has to say. Henderson has enough defensive acumen to play in central midfield and be effective. I cannot believe you think Henderson is not defensive minded. This echoes most of the nonsense Harry was talking about yesterday. There is too much over analyzing of players who play in a certain position - central midfield. I agree all of the central midfielders at the club bring different things tot he table, but I find it ridiculous that you think LFC have no central midfielders who can playmake in midfield. Are you telling me multi-million pound footballers like Henderson, Milner, Allen and Can cannot play in central midfield and be not effective? Sorry man, you are reading to much into this. Alternatively, I think it is irrelevant to over-analyze about this, as if there are going to be more changes in central midfield, it will be next summer. No more CMs are coming this summer.
I also disagree with Red Lenin. LFC WILL play a 4-3-3 with two central midfield players, Henderson and Milner ahead of one of Lucas or Allen with Coutinho and Firmino out wide, supporting Benteke. This is Rodgers' preferred systems, he has backed himself to get the best of the squad and bought players to play this system, and this is what they have been playing to in pre-season.
26 Jul 2015 13:02:34
Exactly Red Linen. 2 attacking midfielders in Hendo and Milner playing as disciplined central midfielders. Even Kompany and Terry would struggle with those 2 protecting them.
Red Rum
26 Jul 2015 13:47:07
Red Rum and eg are spot on. DM should have been a priority this season. The DPL notion is hogwash because no other team in the top six plays with one and that won't work here in the PL. Why? We tried SG and JA there for the dreadful results we now know of. Hendo and Can were already here hence, the need for Milner remains baffling because they are similar. This I idea that BR wants to play with no DM whereas we have seen that when we do play Lucas, we rarely lose nor concede, is just stupid because again, no top team in the PL plays with a DLP.
26 Jul 2015 14:17:11
I think you are right in your thought process regarding what is needed in the center of midfield but unfortunately I cannot see it as a remote possibility considering the players already purchased and Rodgers previous selection tendencies.
From what I gather Red Rum you would prefer a midfield partnership like Matic/Cesc or Coquelin/Carzorla. Rodgers seems to prefer a deep playmaker with either energetic or attack minded players in front. Similar to how Barca set up to an extent with Busquets in that role and Rakitic with Iniesta in front. I can see us trying Henderson or Milner trying to replicate Rakitic's role and Coutinho doing Iniesta's although it looks like we might sacrifice the creative link in Coutinho for more energy with Hendo + Milner.
The main issue is we don't have a Busquets. Gerrard had the playmaking ability without the defensive positional sense and Lucas the opposite. Honestly I think Hendo could take this role as I believe he has the ability on the ball and is intelligent enough to learn the positional aspect but it also restricts the qualities he brings to the team i.e energy in pressing and supporting the attack.
I just think that Rodgers will always focus on the playmaking ability of any player wanted for this role instead of looking at strong defensive midfeilders who have the potential to develop their playmaking ability. I still think we might buy a player for this role if we are successful in selling the players we need to and hopefully we will stumble across someone who happens to have that defensive ability also.
26 Jul 2015 14:19:58
Ag
Everyone are entitled to their own opinion and let's not impose. Creative and playmaking abilities in the midfield is a different ball game to play someone over there.
Agreed on Allen as he was bought to play that role besides Lucas and was a disaster.
Henderson is not Allen nor he is Modric.
Jose wouldn't play Henderson over Fabrigas in the center of the park.
Scholes and Xavi are the best players to play that role and currently it's Modric and Pjanic along with Fabrigas.
Henderson for me is an attack minded midfielder just like Lampard or Vidal.
26 Jul 2015 14:28:11
Red Rum
as i agree with your point that we have little in the way of defensive midfielders i cannot uderstand that people can't see that our defense, particilarly our centre defense partnerships are very poor.
you talk about Arsenal, chelsea Man City and non of our midfileders getting in ther side, however with Terry Cahill Ivanovic or Kompany, Zabelleta, sagna playing behind, the likes of Allen, Milner, Henderson Lucas would all fit in no problem. Man City have one of the poorest Defensive midfileders in the sense of positioning and defending in Yaya Toure and they seem to be doing ok.
Every great team has a great back 5, from Liverpool 70s 80s, Arsenal 90s, Utd, and now Chelsea. Where you look at Liverpools back 5 last year they were woeful. Making goalkeeping errors in positioning and organisation is nothing to do with a defensive midfielder, not commanding your box on set pieces and not being able to distribute the ball is nothing to do with defensive midfielders.
Centre backs who constantly make individual mistakes and have poor positional undestanding is nothing to do with defensive midfielders, Failing to be able to attack the ball take responsibility on set peices and simply head the ball away from danger is nothing to do with defensive midfielders.
Full backs who fail to tuck in and follow their markers is nothing to do with defensive midfielders.
If we think that buying a defensive midfielder, will cure all our defensive problems then i think we are seriously missing the problem. If you want to make comparisons with teams, then compare Chelsea. Man City, and now with Arsenal defensive back 5, ours you will see are light years behind.
Defensive coaching is a massive part of defending as Steve Clark proved however with (its not my fault) Louvren playing in the centre we will have no chance and if Mings plays like he did at the start of last season then we will have no chance.
We should have learned from the season before last when we scored over a 100 goals and still didn't win the league, we actually went backwards buy buying Louvren and selling agger.
Evered
{Ed001's Note - Man City play either Fernando or Fernandinho as a defensive midfielder, alongside Yaya who plays the box to box role. Why does every one keep on about Yaya as a DM? He hasn't played that role in ages.}
26 Jul 2015 15:07:31
Exactly as Ed has said, Man City have both the Fernandos playing in defensive midfield, neither of which are exceptional at it but just selecting someone in the team who has the discipline and defensive mindset makes half the difference.
The mistakes you list may individually have nothing to do with DMs but having a DM in the team snuffing out danger before it starts means those errors will each have much less opportunity to occur during the match.
26 Jul 2015 15:20:36
Hi Ed001
Ok whether it be Fernando or Fernandinho, my point is that unless you get the back 5 right it is very difficult for a defensive midfielder to paper over the cracks, Lucas in my opinion is one of the best defensive midfielders in the prem when fit, however even he cannot cover for individual mistakes behind him and poor defensive performances week in week out.
For me Rodgers is covering over his weekness in defensive coaching when harping on about the lack of goals, its much easier to score when the team has confidence and leaking in poor goals week after week destroyed confidence last year.
Lets hope Gary Macs influence helps the issue.
26 Jul 2015 15:47:43
Lucas is very underrated just like Carrick for United.We have our own version of Busquets,Lucas may not play those hollywood long passes but he is real good reader of the game both defensively and offensively.He picks out the right outlet to pass when we transition to attack and infront him we have players such as Coutinho(you people completely forgot him),Henderson(oh he is actually good with long passes),Milner and really good attacking options also our substitute bench is healthy maybe we need a def midfielder but why we have Can and youth players like Rossiter,Chirivella.Also who is the backup for Busquets at Barcelona is that back up as good as Busquets.
There are good teams with lack of decent playmakers and stunned world class teams like Monchengladbach,Leverkusen.May be this whole discussion will be irrelevant if Rodgers opts more rigid 4-4-2 with Hendo and Milner as our cms and pacy wingers.What our maybe the tactics we have really good players to fill the roles.So where is the lack of playmakers in our team?
As KLOPP said Gegenpressing is the best palymaker.Maybe we play this style when our playmakers are injured.
26 Jul 2015 16:04:41
If I am right, BR wanted to use the same tactics and system 2 years ago with a player playing the Gerrard role who could also defend.
Kovacic at inter was deployed as a deep play maker who receives the ball and carry forward and spray across the field. Play him with Lucas and you basically have a fantastic midfield set up.
We did try Allen in that role and was a failure and so unwanted a replacement for Allen.
Lucas - Henderson wouldn't be a terrible idea but it would take the best feature out of Henderson and he isn't a great reader of the game.
A playmaker is a completely different role, from Scholes to Pjanic, they are masters of passing and readers of the game.
A manager see his game through the eyes of this player. This position is his vision.
UTD dominated English football with Paul Scholes and two wingers.
We could have challenged for the title had we bought that player.
26 Jul 2015 16:16:23
Evered and all those that disagree with me on this, ask yourself these questions.
1) Why do we constantly knock the ball about at the back, which sometimes leads to individual errors?
2) Why, when we don't play Lucas, do opposition punish us time and time again?
3) Why is our build up and link up play slow and lethargic?
The answer to all them questions is, we have problems in midfield.
I'm going to use Masch and Alonso as an example. If we had Masch and Alonso sitting in front of the defence would our centre backs be knocking it about between themselves, or would Masch and Alonso be getting on the ball and knocking it about in midfield, thus reducing the chance of punishable individual errors at the back?
If we had Masch and Alonso sitting in front of our defence, would the defence have adequate protection? Yes. You cannot compare Henderson and Milner to Masch and Alonso. Therefore, you cannot expect them to perform in roles they don't specialise in.
What does Alonso specialise in? Quick passes! Getting on the ball, passing it, wanting it back, keeping the pace up. Look at his stats in the bundesliga for last season, and for most of his career for that matter. Most passes on average per game at the highest success rate. Who do we have who takes on that role? No one! And we expect Milner who has played the majority of his career as a winger to take on that role?
These are specialist positions and those that can't see it are tactically blind. Maybe Reus is the answer?
Red Rum
26 Jul 2015 17:04:22
Hi Red Rum
I am not disagreeing in the need for a defensive midfeilder it is essential to success with any team, Chelski have won everything with a decent DM and they are one of the most important positions on the pitch.
What I am saying is that however good your defensive midfielder is if the back 5 behind him are tripe then they are always fighting a loosing battle and ultimately look poor as a player. Alonso and Mash had Hyppia Carragher Aurelio, finnan, Agger, Riise, Arbeloa, Reina behind them at various times. Now if we had that callibre of defense to choose from now I would not be making this point.
Mings, Skittles, Louvren, Toure, Moreno, Sahko, enrique, are a big worry for me.
Also we had a manager who tactically could set up a team in Benitez (however a bit barmy). Rodgers does not know how to set up a team not too lose as it proved the season before last when that is all we needed to do to win the league.
26 Jul 2015 17:24:51
Why it has to be 2 man midfield.Players don't rigidly follow particular formation,they keep on moving and interchange positions.We need playmakers and we have them.
1)&2)Because of Rodgers foolishness to stick with inept defenders and not playing Lucas or can.
As I said Lucas is good at picking out right outlets to pass when attacking .
3) Our build up play is lethargic because :
i)Coutinho didn't have runners to pick out a pass.We were struggling with strikers.
ii)And we lacked cohesion in our attack so when Hendo was looking to play forward pass no one was there or no one was moving in the gaps.
Reason for this was poor coaching and tactics implemented by our Manager.
And another thing when United started losing titles they bought Carrick from Spurs for the next season and then they once again started winning titles.Earlier they had Keane when they were winning.
If we need playmakers we have them & Already we bought many players how can we buy Kovacic.Also what about Can,did u guys see his passing range.Without giving him a chance how can we write him off.
26 Jul 2015 19:14:49
Red Rum - No, the problem to all those reasons you listed is Rodgers. We play that way because he wants us to play that way. If you think a Matic would make LFC play quicker, stop them knocking balls around the back, and make them avoid all the defensive mistakes they have been making, I would disagree with you.
26 Jul 2015 19:28:27
Indianscouser talks some sense here. BR is clueless at coaching the defensive part of the game hence, he always avoids talking about it. He plays cbs who can't play the way he wants to play and plays without a DM whereas every successful team has one. That is not player personnel issues. That is managerial incompetence and sticking with such dumb ideas that have been proven failures, will only lead us nowhere fast.
26 Jul 2015 22:55:05
All the talk of Alonso got me thinking. he had a great keeper on his wavelength to help him with his quick thinking attacks. now you lot got me teary eyed what rafa got for for less money than allen? right around the team man for man better value? Why FSG overlooked his services beyond me. BR's squad now and I don't rate it one bit!