Liverpool banter 216513

 

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18 Sep 2017 18:22:27
Great to see Ward getting a start in the cup game but it has to be said that Klopp and his team are a damn joke with this goalkeeper situation. This is the third keeper to have played so far this season, it's laughable. How is any of the keepers or defenders supposed to get used to each other if this is the managers policy.
An absolute shambles that he hasn't sorted out the keeper situation.

Agree14 Disagree15

18 Sep 2017 18:45:51
Agree about the GK situation. Mignolet has to be dropped and another be given a full run.

Saying that though, the chance is there for Ward to usurp both Karius and Mignolet and same goes for Karius.

Not sure why he is just not letting Karius and Ward fight it out because surely he has seen enough to know that Mignolet should be nowhere near being first choice. Playing a different GK in each match not going to help the situation, that is for sure.

18 Sep 2017 18:51:30
The situation appears to be "I want to test out Karius and Ward a bit more before dropping one of them in it, so I'll keep using Migs for another while". That what's creating the irregularity. If it wasn't for that it'd be one goalie for the League and CL, and another for the Cups.

My view Karius has had enough testing, and even if he hasn't, he's still a better goalkeeper than Migs by a country mile and he's well overdue being re-instated as first choice. I'll take some comfort from the Ed001 saying that Klopp doesn't see Migs as his #1 long term. Hopefully that means his axing come to fruition before too much longer.

18 Sep 2017 19:05:49
I agree mcgoveb, I have to say I think it's a mistake but I think it shows klopp philosophy that attack is the priority. We are always going to concede with how we play but I think it could cost us in the tight game when the opposition park the bus and their biggest threat is set pieces. It would make sense to have say karius as no 1 and use ward in the league cup but rotating constantly is dangerous as the cbs don't know what type of gk is behind them in that split second when they have to make a decision. Some keepers always come some don't. Some are comfortable using their feet some aren't. Some left footed etc. I guess klopp thinks we can out score anyone, I think it's brave at least and shows the faith he has in our attack. You never know, it could end up working and be revolutionary, seeing many clubs rotate their gks regularly. Maybe it's just a case of klopp trying to see who his best option is. Players need to be tested in front of big crowds as some can't do their thing with such an audience. I don't think it will be happening next season.

18 Sep 2017 19:19:50
Let's also be perfectly honest here. It is not like we are all of a sudden going to find the next Loris, Courtois, Cech or De Gea.

Maybe Klopp is just trying to figure out who would be better between Ward or Karius. The only way he is going to find out is to give both a chance also knowing that our defence will either break or make them.

I really do not see Mignolet at at Liverpool next season and only Klopp will know what he has planned at the moment.

Could end up being a bumpy ride but fact is, you can have any defence in front of Mignolet, it is not like he will prove better at Chelsea, Spurs, City or UTD. He just ain't good enough.

Klopp obviously has his reasons for doing what he is re the GK situation. We will just have to see how it all pans out.

18 Sep 2017 19:21:54
Superred
Or May be Klopp is wrong and dumb in this case. Now before you and your allies take me down πŸ˜„πŸ˜„ it's a decent proposition. May be we loose all our games due this tactics and miss out top 4. Maybe has no end!

If it was Rodgers I can assure you on your behalf you would have ripped him to shreds! Or may be you wouldn't!

18 Sep 2017 19:45:47
We've failed to address the defence this summer. We should have bought a world class keeper and sold one of ours and we should have dealt with the defence by either signing a holding midfielder or a world class central defender.
Our biggest weaknesses weren't addressed and so we are left with 3 half decent keepers who are all much of a muchness - hence Klopp doesn't know who his number 1 is.

18 Sep 2017 19:47:12
Oh Harry, there is nothing wrong with critising Klopp. You make it out as tit for tat.

I for one was not rubbing Rodgers face into the tar under two years of his reign.

I have been critising Klopp though in context and so have others i. e. ED001 but when it gets to the point where some are calling for his head or wanting Rafa back then all logic goes out of the window.

It is like you want to see Klopp fail Harry as all you can do is complain about us not having a 'world class' defensive midfielder.

And you will still argue until you are blue in the face that it will make Matip, Lovren and Klavan better.

Ha ha, over to you Harry.

18 Sep 2017 20:22:21
I agree that this window just gone was not the best. It wasn't a disaster when you look at salah but we missed out on vvd and that is large part of the reason we're struggling defencively. I think karius is the future but migs ix being given a reprieve due to late season form

Wcd, there is no need to start an argument for nothing. The way you have placed yourself firmly on one side of a non existent argument says you have made your mind up and won't change it, even when people supply you with facts and figures to support their claims.

Because I don't like utd and am behind our team and manager I am singled out for ridicule? I'm more than willing to look at the team critically. Defence = not good enough but some exciting fbs coming through. Midfield = ups and downs but on their day frighteningly good. Forwards = fantastic to watch nightmare to play against I would imagine. Going well despite quite poor showing at the weekend.

18 Sep 2017 20:33:15
I really do think Klopp needs to find a proper starting 11 sooner rather than later. All this swapping around at the GK and defensive positions (be that both fullback and center back) can't do anything good for the understanding on the pitch.
Players need to gel together and they need to form partnerships - offensively we've done very well with this, players making all the right runs, passes, etc. But that only applies because we rarely rotate our front three.

Changing the defense on a daily basis doesn't work and I think we're going to pay the price for that in the long run. In fact, I think we already are. With the way we press, we can't expect our players to perform regularly if they don't have the required understanding and work rate for each other. This especially applies for our gk, defenders and midfielders - they seem to let each other down too often

I agree very much with Ron, a defensive midfielder this summer would have done us so good. Even much better than any new defender we might bring in.

18 Sep 2017 20:37:43
You have to feel for Ward, he's going to be playing behind a comedy defence. Poor kid has a bloody hard night in for him tomorrow.

18 Sep 2017 20:56:22
Signing a defensive midfielder would have changed bugger all when Mignolet is still there, Matip, Lovren and Klavan too. That and there are not that many quality defensive midfielders available or for sale. Does a defesnive midfielder even suite our style of play?

One thing Klopp failed to do is sign a commanding CB and then continue to still keep faith with Mignolet. To find a top CB is not going to fall in ones lap either.

Lucas is a pretty decent defensive midfielder (his staunch non supporters will disagree though) but truth be told, not even he could do much about Matip and Lovren not being able to communicate.

Come January/ next summer, Klopp has to find a CB which can stamp his authority at the back and hopefully Mignolet is out of the picture by then. Clearly Lovren, Matip and Klavan need somebody to wipe their behinds. Mignolet is not going to do that either and neither will a defensive midfielder.

18 Sep 2017 20:58:28
I think you'll find that this guy would find something to complain about even if we were unbeaten at the top of the league. Some people just love to whinge. Some people can't live without doing so. Harry reminds me of an ex girlfriend.

{Ed025's Note - harry has a beard and is hung like a donkey...so i hope not mate..

18 Sep 2017 21:10:34
Max
". Players and managers are transient employees, They come and go, The club moves on. "
From the great Ed02 😎😎😎.

18 Sep 2017 21:12:34
Ed025, That hurts mate πŸ˜’πŸ˜’πŸ˜’.

{Ed025's Note - it was just a guess mate..

18 Sep 2017 21:14:39
Jaysus, you have revealed far too much Ed025. Makes me happy climbing into bed with my bird even though she snores.

18 Sep 2017 21:17:54
Each to there own Ed, each to there own.

18 Sep 2017 21:18:06
Hahahah! Nice one mate.

18 Sep 2017 21:26:13
Yes Harry, you are correct. It does not mean a defesnive midfielder is going to fix what we have seen from Mignolet, Matip Lovren and Klavan.

Verbal diarrhea.

18 Sep 2017 21:28:09
BTW Max did you read Ron's comment, he too is asking for a HOLDING MIDFIELDER. I repeat HOLDING MIDFIELDER. But I am sure you would ignore it 😎😎😎 And guess what he too is not sound with our transfer business either mate! Something is wrong mate!

18 Sep 2017 21:28:38
Max, a midfielder being able to tackle through and covering the space in front of our back 4 would not be difficult to fit into our style. It's about having the right mind for the task - and none of our current midfielders have that defensive mindset, which means they do let our defense down at times.

The defenders gets way more stick, because "they are the ones letting the goals in". Imo we definitely need at least one strong defensive minded midfielder and I honestly believe it would solve more defensive problems than a new center back would.

On top of that, all the swapping around isn't helping anything on the pitch. It's been a long time since we had the same 5 starting players (gk, back four) two games in a row. I definitely think that is a foundation of some of the issues we have on the pitch (read my upper post)

18 Sep 2017 21:42:14
Red Flagon

I said yesterday, there is nothing a defensive midfielder would have been able to do about the goal we conceded vs Burnley.

Harry goes on about a defensive midfielder winning the ball in the air.

1. The goal we conceded vs Burnley, the ball was hoofed over our midfield.
2. TAA failed to deal with the ball.
3. The ball went to Matip and he failed to deal with Wood.
4. Klavan went over strolling to Matip and failed to change the situation either.

So with this logic, we needed a defensive midfielder to get in between Matip and Klavan to deal with Wood when two of our CB's did bugger all?

You see, not even harry could give a proper answer yesterday when I asked him how a defensive midfiedler would have stopped the Burnley goal from going in.

I honestly coould not remember what he said but it was along the lines of the defesnive midfielder winning the ball in the air.

Ha ha, unbelievable, not unless you are Harry though.

18 Sep 2017 21:43:33
Liverpool were not the only team to struggle in the transfer window. It will be remembered as the window that never was. A lot of teams missed out on important targets. Regarding dcm klopp identified kieta and was close to getting him. We have to wait until next year but is a relevant reason why we didn't sign some other dcm.

Max is getting slated for supporting his team and getting behind them even though we are going through a tough period (which has seen us lose the majestic sum of 1 game) I'd expect it on the utd page but not here surely. No one is blindly doing it either. I have heard max criticise the team where it's due. We all know the defence is poor but it was identified hence vvd. Ok liverpool and klopp are to blame for tapping up but if you think we're the only ones who do it you're completely deluded. The attack is our best asset and other teams fear it, I can promise you that. But they are getting slated. It is crazy, take a step back.

18 Sep 2017 21:48:15
Wait til people see keita in a red shirt. The people calling klopp an idiot are going to look pretty silly. Trust.

18 Sep 2017 21:59:32
A defensive midfielder (e. g. Can in this situation) should have tracked the runner from midfield, thus preventing the goal attempt. Can stopped running and started watching, I imagine the hope is someone else in that situation might have maybe kept running.

18 Sep 2017 22:00:40
Max, let's not just base this on the Burnley game mate. Let's base it on the general performances. At least that's what I'm trying to do.

We can probably argue from here to the moon on where our defensive problems lie. To me it has to do with a lot with the swapping around and also not having a top defensive minded midfielder in our team playing. Perhaps the Burnley game doesn't prove that last point, but then the Sevilla for instance does.

But perhaps it's better to just agree to disagree - although you don't seem to be taking all my points in consideration.

18 Sep 2017 22:05:41
Max
Apparently you don't have patience to listen to others as you are quick to mock them. Our teams has conceded goaks / attacks through open play. I gave a relkafvwe nedd both Defenders and a good positinally sound midfielder with some quality on the ball ( you could call him a DM / DLP ) it's your choice.

The need of this midfielder did not arise after dropping points against Burnley. This has been rounding from months / years now.

Now regarding Burnley, You are right. A DM wouldn't have stopped that goal unless he is very deep to put in a tackle ir mark the Burnley player who took the short!

Now your question regarding what would a DM do when you hoof the ball ( copied from ED01 lines )

What happens after you win / loose those headers? If you lose then the attacker heads it down to the nearest player to retain the possession. A Defensive midfielder or the deepest midfielder is aware of this called the " SECOND BALL " and tries to position himself to mark out the player that recievs the ball from the attacker.

A defensive midfielder could also win headers which are hoofed up top and should he position himself always wins the second ball either from your own team mates that is your center backs or your opposition attacker,

Are you trying to say everyteam who has a DM Never encounters hoof the ball from opposition.

This is my opinion

Explain me in which case would you need a DM and wouldn't need a DM.

Cheers.

18 Sep 2017 22:08:54
Also, the fact that Can and Hendo can both get forward and play football detracts from the fact that they are both holding midfielders. They were talking about it on motd last week. Saying we play with two when we really only need one. So that kind of pisses on the theory that klopp is an idiot for not signing a dcm. The defence can turn it around too. They have had a poor start but we have all seen lovren and matip play well. We know they are capable of it. There are also positives regarding our defence atm, in the shape of taa, Robertson and moreno.

18 Sep 2017 22:09:13
Max

You clearly don't rate DM, tell me how exactly a DM works for a team. what are their roles and how / who fulfills this role at Liverpool! 18 other teams in the league has a DM in some kind or the other, tell me why?

You had a philosophy how we don't need an out and out striker compared to others.

Thanks.

18 Sep 2017 22:21:51
And Max
Liveroool do play with a DM. We do have a midfielder who is tasked to do excat what other teams ask their DM to do and he is Henderson. To start an attack, to win the second balls. To break up any opposition attacks. To tackle when needed, to protect the defense. To cover the space the is left behind,
Undofortunately and since he is not a natural player he struggles. It's about roles. Chelsea call him a DM while we call him Henderson. The task is the same! The name and personals changes. Matic wins it coz he is naturally a DM!

18 Sep 2017 22:38:13
Yes Harry, I want to see Matic dealing with Matip, Klavan and Lovren at set pieces.

Get over yourself please.

18 Sep 2017 22:23:35
If you had a choice of 1 of the 2,a top class keeper or a top class centre-back, what would you choose. myself I would choose keeper every time, a top class keeper will save you 10 to 12 points a season. watching united game yesterday Rooney has 2 chances De Gea saves, if Rooney scores its a different game, united go up the other end and finish Everton off. for me keeper all day long.

18 Sep 2017 22:57:11
Haha come on max mate, you're slating Harry and us others who don't agree with you for not being able to give you proper answers. Yet when we do you don't seem to bother taking it into consideration and reply properly.

Talk about scoring an own goal.

18 Sep 2017 23:00:42
Nice on Wembley, Rooney was cutting through the UTD midfield and defence on a couple of occasions, Matic or no Matic (take note Harry) and Rooney ain't the quickest player is he?

If Mignolet was in goal for UTD it would have been good night.

18 Sep 2017 23:08:47
Agree Wembley and even a top class central defender can do nothing when they have no cover from midfield.

Our defenders have men running at them unchallenged from midfield with players running in behind them and other players unmarked running in the channels because our fullbacks are ahead of the ball.

How does a top class defender deal with all those threats?
All of our successful teams have had a holding midfielder sitting in front of the central defence. The last time we had any sustained success was with Didi/ Mascherano during the Houllier/ Rafa era. Rodgers tried to use Gerrard there but he was more of a "quarter back" than a defensive player.
No-one got past Mascherano, it just didn't happen. If you wanted to get past him you had to loft the ball over his head for Sami to mop up.
People talk about Hansen and Lawrenson, Hansen will tell you all day long about the importance of a holding midfielder.

18 Sep 2017 23:17:03
When you play with only three midfielders it is daft to have one player who simply defends, picks up the second ball and releases it 5/ 10 yards. The system we use has two holding mid but they also get forward. It's part of being an attacking team. People calling for a dcm and cf, you can't do that without scrapping everything klopp has done and going back to the drawing board. If that's your position then fine, I think you're wrong and I think liverpool are not far away from being premier league winning candidates.

I think max passion for the club is admirable. Not just that, the lad's right. Fair play bruv.

18 Sep 2017 23:51:50
I agree Wembley. I'd take a gk.

18 Sep 2017 21:44:16
Isn't the idea that one of the midfielders is supposed to stay back and help the back 4. Ed01 isn't that what you've constantly said this season that they are all getting forward en masses and not communicating on who should stay back?
Well if that's how we should be playing would it make more sense to get a Medel or similiar in to play that role allowing Can/ Hendo/ Wini get forward without the panic of wondering should he be the one staying or getting forward.

{Ed001's Note - there should be no panic though, it is just that the 3 of them are all so similar. It is time we recruited some different types of midfielders, if we are going to continue to play with 3 and they can't sort it out between them, then yes, we will have to get one who specialises in sitting and protecting them. One like Medel would be perfect, as he is excellent on the ball.}

19 Sep 2017 00:20:50
A holding midfielder does not "also get forward". They hold their position in the space in front of the central defenders.
We don't have a holding midfielder, that's one of the reasons our defenders are exposed almost every game we play. Our midfielders and fullbacks are all ahead of the ball, it's basically "blitz football" and sadly it is too easily bypassed. Our style works against teams who want to play possession football, it does not work against counter attacking direct teams.

19 Sep 2017 01:01:42
Superred - If you took the time to read our replies (same goes for max) you'd realise what we're calling for is a midfielder who is ABLE to take on the defensive parts of the game, but not solely play as a defensive midfielder. Which are exactly the roles Henderson (and to some extent Can) has upon them, problem is they simply aren't strong enough in that department.

At the moment our midfield isn't strong enough to defensively read the game or to mark or cut off runs from opposite players + our fullbacks are full on attack. So often we see our defenders left short because of all this and they end up taking all the blame.
How you don't believe at least one strong defensive minded midfielder is a necessity is a mystery to me.

19 Sep 2017 06:06:02
Max
You did not answer me, tell me what does a DM does in any team? Your beloved Ron is also suggesting to bring in a holding midfielder or that nature!
We have 3 B2B player in the middle doing the same thing over and over again. Look even the Ed are talking about brining a different kind of midfielders.
Why don't you educate all of us what does a DM does in any team / why liveroool is an exception? Or who does that role in our team? I am all ears mate!

19 Sep 2017 06:59:10
For someone who is all ears, you do talk a lot mate - haha!
I'm only joking, I agree with most of your argument on this.
Only thing is, doesn't that change the system and nobody seems to want to try to do that.
We could play with a DM against teams that require extra cover, such away games against the so called better teams.
Again though, that's changing the system and we don't like to do that apparently lol.

19 Sep 2017 07:18:01
We could play with a natural holding midfielder against all teams. I don't know what's the exception there. Why does people think we are wasting a position by playing a holding midfielder? Infact it brings stability to the team and the roles are absolutely clear among the other midfielders. Our current holding mid Henderson is not good enough! Can't you guys see it?

{Ed025's Note - i can harry..

19 Sep 2017 08:35:06
The last time we dominated both league and Europe we had a world class holding midfielder who made an average back 4 looks class apart! If you compare our current team to 08/ 09 there won't be many exception infact our current players will walk into that team EXCEPT ALONSO AND MASCHERNO!

19 Sep 2017 09:53:05
Not blowing smoke or anything but from day 1 ed002 called Klopp's tactics "Kopfloses Huhn" 😁
There is some truth to this in the way our fullbacks and midfielders play. We could do with some more structure and understanding of where your team mates are to help snuff out opposition attacks or at least make it difficult for them.

19 Sep 2017 10:19:38
Actually Harry, the last time we dominated anything of the sort we had Nigel Spackman, Ray Houghton and Steve McMahon in midfield.

None of them were particularly defensive and played in the midfield 3 of Kenny Dalglish. The reason it worked is because they all had a good understanding as team mates. Modern players don't think for themselves anymore though so the manager has to tell them exactly what their role is unfortunately.

Dalglish was one of the first managers in Britain to throw out the logical fallacy that you need to play 4-4-2 to score goals. With Barnes and Beardsley either side of John Aldridge we were the best team in Europe by a mile but unfortunately that side never got to showcase their class in Europe.

Hendo, Gini and Can should never all play in the same midfield again. They are too similar and it makes our midfield flat. The problem with everyone being in a flat line is you just end up going sideways on the ball, and one good pass can take the entire midfield out of the game. They all want to be in the same areas of the pitch. That is why you need a Coutinho or Lallana to break that line and always commit to going forward or pressing higher. If one player is always going, it is easier for the others to know that they need to sit. Ray Houghton was very offensive and used to get forward very quickly, so McMahon and Spackman knew they had to be more conservative and take it in turns getting forward to support. There was no confusion. It worked because they played as a team, not because any of them were dedicated destroyers.

We should be able to resolve our midfield issues with the players already at the club, plus Keita next season to replace Can. But if the players don't grasp the need for one player to drop at all times, then as Ed001 says, I'm sure Klopp will move for someone who can understand that. I have no doubt that Henderson, Can or Wijnaldum can fulfill the role though when they have players like Lallana, Coutinho and Chamberlain alongside them who they know will go forward at every opportunity, to make their own roles more obvious. The biggest issue in our midfield against Sevilla was Can not really understanding his role. Which is actually Klopps fault for constantly playing him in a different way and obviously not making his job clear enough to him. Can will leave next summer though so you can discount him from any long term plans. I can also see us going back after Brandt, Meyer or Lemar next summer if/ when Coutinho departs. Milner will be gone too with hopefully Woodburn getting his game time.

We need to develop a chemistry amongst the players. An understanding. Not start chopping and changing. Which is why Klopp needs to can this new found obsession with rotation before he ends up walking like Rafa did. I have faith he will find a balance in midfield though. Just have a little patience.

19 Sep 2017 11:54:54
Well keita can play as a dcm but it seems clear from what we've heard about the interchangeable midfield he will be required to stay back when the other two get forward and vice versa. If we go for a dcm it has to be the right person. It needs to be someone who can get the ball down and play.







 

 

 
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