Liverpool banter 216863

 

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03 Oct 2017 11:24:05
Not having a go at the owners, the manager, coaches, previous managers, players or anything to do with LFC; just looking for opinions from LFC supporters on something.

First let me make it clear that in my eyes we owe the FSG a lot for how they pulled our club from the verge of destruction from the two leeches that were H and G.

There's no doubt that they have set us on the right path to remain a stable and secure club. They have backed various managers in the transfer market at times and have at times allowed these managers to bid incredible amounts of money for what turned out to be average and totally unproven as well as unjustified purchases ie Downing, Carroll, Johnson, Aquilani etc. (they were bang average players who were only decent at their previous clubs, let's be honest here) .

Can FSG take us further though? I fully believe they want to, but can they? They, like the current manager, players, coaches, you and I have made plenty of mistakes along the way. They will probably make plenty more, again like us all.

But for us to ever fully get back to the top of the league, do we need new and wealthier owners who can buy whoever we need, whenever we need them? Literally, trial and error like almost in terms of players like City/ Chelsea have done in the last decade, stock-piling players, loaning out most etc. or off-loading failed high profile purchases like Stevan Jovetic, De Bruyne etc?

I personally wouldn't want it, but if you want to win the league (Leicester's fluke/ incredible story aside - no disrespect intended), or at least get close consistently, it seems like you have to spend to the maximum allowed like all of today's front runners do to get to the top.

We have seeming had interest (not sure how serious) in Salah, Mbappe and Lemar this summer, as well as VVD, Keita etc - all of these would have been huge fees if they materialised, are we kidding ourselves, could we have even paid for all or even 3 or 4 of these in the same window/ season? I doubt we could with Financial Fair Play playing a role as well as the debt we are still servicing, the news stand and so on.

So like I say, do FSG have the wherewithal to get us back to the very top in financial terms and all the rest, or do we all need a change?
Liverpool FC fans, feel free to have your say, interested to hear any opinions.

Agree3 Disagree1

03 Oct 2017 12:25:23
FSG has once again spend a good chunk this window and it’s sad to see people pointing fingers at them for not signing VVD and Messi in the summer.
Money would give you players YES! But that alone won’t win you title. You need a good manager to use those players and their strength to full!
If that was not the case David Moyes would have won trophies at UTD!

03 Oct 2017 12:39:29
Money's not the most important thing but of course the richer teams generally do better, they can attract the best players more regularly. In that light FSG will struggle to make us consistently the best team in the country because they don't have the funds.

Having said that good management can go some of the way to countering a lack of funds. Dortmund and Athletico are two examples from Europe in recent years, Spurs currently and Arsenal 15-20 years ago are others.

If we want to challenge consistently being as rich as chelsea and the Manchester clubs would help but, think of the moral high ground we'd take if we won without spending as much as them.

03 Oct 2017 12:44:36
Well thought out post, OIrish. Love it. IMO, FSG have gotten a lot wrong and right at the same time which is okay provided we are going in the right direction globally which we are. Now regarding whether they can take us forward in this day and age of the PL, is something that I think can be done PROVIDED we are very smart, meticulous and steadfast in our approach to transfers, management, scouting, coaching etc. The fact of the matter is that if we are looking for FSG to do what City and Utd do every season by dropping close to 250m every season on players then sorry, we are barking up the wrong tree here cos we ain't got that kind of money to throw around evry season. We tried that under Rafa and we all know how that played out. That much is a fact.

What we can do is to do exactly what Spurs are doing as in, being very smart in the players we target and the scouting team needs to be top notch. We need to strive to become the team that can find a Kante from the depths of French football and take a chance on such players, all while doing their due diligence on the player through extensive research. Spurs are able to compete by doing this right now BUT can they win the PL doing this? Only time will tell BUT they have a much better chance than say Arsenal or us right now (last season and 7 games in this season) which is all you can ask for.

It also helps when you have the fans onside who despite whatever may be going on, understand what is being done and have the patience to persevere through sticky times, something Poch has (who is yet to win a thing with Spurs despite being there longer than Klopp) to his benefit that Klopp does not have cos some of our fans are so quick to turn on him cos he lost 2 games out of 15 in all comps this season. That is just my take.

03 Oct 2017 13:10:33
Fair points from WCD, Putney and Bingo.

I have to say we are lacking in my opinion in the scouting department it seems, we have missed so many good players down the years before they "made it" it's scary.

I remember hearing about Radamael Falcao over a decade ago, he was at River Plate in Argentina. He was going for £2m and I just couldn't believe we didn't move for him, even I (a un-knowledgeable football fan) could see he had that something special.

A work permit wouldn't have been a huge issue either as he played regularly for Colombia. His first language is Spanish so he'd have had no issue if we had to loan him to Spain for a couple of seasons to secure one. It was a no/ low risk move, missed our chance.

Instead we spent about £1m to £2m on David N'Gog lol.

We have also failed with players like Shelvey and Danny Wilson for about the same amount.

So I do agree that if we got our scouting sorted, we'd be in great shape.

Do Ajax grow their own scouts or what?

We need to borrow one or two off of them if possible :)

03 Oct 2017 13:30:13
Now, you're talking, OIrish. As Putney said, money definitely helps you compete BUT it is not the only way as Spurs is showing right now. The scouting dept. needs a true revamp from top to bottom. Ed01 has said as much on numerous occasions.

Also, the difference btw Rafa's time and now is that there is more money in the PL than there used to be so we can actually sign who we want, who fits with what Klopp wants to do with the right scouting and due deligence. See VVD and Keita for example. We got Keita for a cut price less than the 75m we bid earlier and perhaps we'll get VVD for a cut price as well cos well, he already checked out of S'Hampton. Rafa could not do these types of deals for these types pof amounts back then back BUT now, Klopp actually can due to the PL being flush with cash right now.

This is where we need to focus a lot of our resources on cos our manager has been successful before doing the exact same thing. Now, he has more money to spend on the players he actually wants so the hope is, we can compete w/ o crippling the club as Spurs is actually showing they can BUT will they be successful in the long run? That is the question.

03 Oct 2017 13:36:13
We used to be great at finding hidden gems. Still not bad when you look at coutinio solanke and can. I remember laughing when we signed hypia and henchoz. I laughed instead of crying as I thought they would be awful. Average henchoz and unknown hypia, and I genuinely remember people saying "why is he starting that kid at right back, " that kid was steven Gerrard. What a defence they turned out to be.

03 Oct 2017 13:44:12
Olrish and I quote

"But for us to ever fully get back to the top of the league, do we need new and wealthier owners who can buy whoever we need, whenever we need them? Literally, trial and error like almost in terms of players like City/ Chelsea have done in the last decade, stock-piling players, loaning out most etc. or off-loading failed high profile purchases like Stevan Jovetic, De Bruyne etc? "

FSG and Liverpool's bank accounts are not connected.

Liverpool Football Club need to pay for players transfer fees, wages, stadium running costs and all other expenses occurred via the Income Liverpool generates.

FSG have also loaned massive amounts of money to Liverpool but that equals to a business transaction. The money loaned by FSG becomes a debt onto the club. It gets recorded in the club accounts. The money loaned by FSG to LFC cannot be for free, it has to be payed back. The more money loaned to LFC by FSG, the more the debt of LFC rises. Simply a lose lose situation for both LFC and FSG.

What more do you want FSG to do? Since they took over, the clubs financial status has improved significantly. Things like building the new stand will further increase the clubs income going forward.

Just forget about the money for a second as if Southampton were going to give in at the end of the summer window, VVD would have signed for LFC which would have seen LFC outspend City in the window.

03 Oct 2017 13:46:06
Ed002 has posted in great detail about third party ownership kev and could suggest that as a massive reason we/ anybody else didn't sign him. Looks more likely when you consider he moved to Porto where this was regular practice. In reality they probably paid about 5million euros for half of his economic rights.

{Ed001's Note - and he moved to Atletico with 3rd party ownership still involved.}

03 Oct 2017 14:02:05
Yes Ed001, Falcao is surely one of the most high profile payers involved with TPO in recent times. A question if you have time ed, was it correct we had to pay a fee to sort out TPO issues with firmino when we signed hime? or is this incorrect and disallowed in the german league?

{Ed001's Note - I believe there was something of a problem with his ownership at the time, though Ed002 is really the person who would know.}

03 Oct 2017 14:11:08
I agree with your view on Scouting department Olrish. That is an area we have struggled badly over the years! If their choices and findings are AOC and Wijnaldum then that’s clear they need to be replaced!

03 Oct 2017 17:55:28
Harry, you know you could just make a valid point w/ o all the childish digs at the players, right?

03 Oct 2017 22:16:50
Money is not the issue, success is.
Man City discovered this when they came into money and started talking about signing Messi and Rooney 😄
They soon realised it's not that simple. You have to build success before the really great players will come.

We need to start winning things and regularly challenging before we can sign really great players.

04 Oct 2017 08:45:18
Max, I wasn't for a second suggesting that their accounts were/ were not linked, apologies if it looked like that - I'm not privy to any details of the club that might be considered HCI or even CI.

I also as clearly as I could possibly do it, pointed out that I wasn't in any way having a go at FSG or anyone for that matter.
You asked "what more could I want them to do? "
I never said I wanted them to do anything Max!

I simply asked for Liverpool fans to give me their opinions, which you did and you made some very good points at times but for heaven's sake man, read the post before going for my neck next time or just skim over completely next time please.

04 Oct 2017 08:46:47
Hey Back! Yes mate, very good point on 3rd party ownership - i had never taken that into account on Falcao, many thanks for reminding me and pointing that out, cheers!

04 Oct 2017 09:19:36
I would be inclined to disagree Ron sorry.
Are you saying that we'd be challenging for titles now if we won the two cup finals a season and a bit ago?
Not having a go, just trying to clarify what you mean mate.

We obviously took 4th place last season which is like winning a trophy these days with the rewards that come, so why are we still not progressing?
Money in my opinion brings in top players who get/ ask for top wages (which we can't offer currently) and this then leads to success.

See Chelsea for a prime example of that - what did they win before Abramovich?
Hardly anything in years, as soon as he comes in, they buy the top young talent mostly.

2003 - Makelele (who came from a bigger club because Chelsea paid higher wages), 2004 - Carvalho, Duff, Cech, Thiago Mendes, Kezman and Robben off the top of my head.

They hadn't won a league title before these transfers so how did they entice them? Location helps of course, but don't underestimate the power of higher wages/ transfer fees and bonuses.







 

 

 
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