09 Mar 2023 22:51:32
Not wanting to count our chickens or anything but I have been quite critical of Thiago this season citing him as a large part of our problem. Not the only part but a large part.

Now he’s been out injured and we’ve experienced an immediate upturn in form generally (with RM and CP being exceptions) does anyone agree that we look better without him? Has it got anything to do with him being out of the side? Is it just coincidence?

My own feelings have always been that he’s a silky, talented footballer but can easily be pressed into mistakes as he wants to slow everything down and holds onto the ball too much. That has led to us being very vulnerable this season.

He also isn’t great at pressing the opposition in an intelligent way. He will tackle but tends to go on his own rather than as part of a unit.

I was very interested to see if my theory about him was correct or if I was being too critical. Everything I’ve seen so far has backed up what I originally thought.

Does anyone have any other theories? Would our mini renaissance be even better if he was still fit and playing?

10 Mar 2023 00:07:41
Personally Becker’s I think it’s more about the balance. We have very talented midfielders, but they don’t work in just any combination.

If we’re playing Thiago and Fabinho for example then we need a very energetic 3rd midfielder alongside them. Henderson isn’t that anymore.

For me, Henderson can still be useful in midfield just not in that combination. Bellingham (or similar) seems to be the player that would fill that gap, a really energetic/ intelligent box to box player.

Bajcetic seems to be finding his best position still, him Thiago/ Henderson and Fab could work.

Personally I’d still like to see a couple of top quality, robust, versatile midfielders (to replace Ox and Naby) and a robust, good quality CB (to replace Matip) added in the summer. That may be enough to challenge again next season. Then reassess from there on.

Not asking too much is it?

10 Mar 2023 00:13:06
I’d say it’s a coincidence. Bajcetic has been the spark in midfield for Fabinho’s form and Konate has given Trent a bit more confidence. Klopp also seems to have stopped Trent coming in field. Lastly, Gakpo has done a good job of imitating Bobby too with him being constantly available for passes into the centre and is able to keep/ care for the ball.

I may be completely wrong though.

10 Mar 2023 00:25:10
I do agree that Gakpo’s emergence in the false 9 has meant the ball is sticking up front and he comes deeper to help the midfield too.

Konate has only just come back though in the last game so although he makes a difference of course I don’t think he’s anything to do with the upturn in form over all.

The fact is we haven’t conceded a goal in the PL since Thiago’s been injured. For me that tells its own story.

10 Mar 2023 02:07:23
It's more to gomez not playing in the defence which improved our form n cleansheets. With our front 3 clicking at the perfect time, thiago will be usefull for remaining season. As long gomez doesn't play as centreback.

10 Mar 2023 03:46:51
i would hold on to that view until thiago is playing in the current team with the return to pressing tactics. the whole team is playing better, benefitting from the change in tactics.

10 Mar 2023 04:58:32
I do and don’t agree Beckers. I do think we have been better without him but I think that is more to do with the change of style back to the high press and energetic midfield of previous years than his ability. Iv yet to see if he could play that way but I see no reason why he couldn’t. He’s shown this year he can make a tackle and break up attacks. My only concern is his lack of pace in the recovery as a cm because that is needed for when Fabs in the DM position overcommits, something we had vs UTD, although admittedly it wasn’t needed that much with Fans playing quite well. I could see him taking Fabs position or at the very least rotating with him if he stays. I say if as he was brought in to facilitate the possession style we tried and failed to adopt. If that is being dropped I could see him wanting to return to Barca.

10 Mar 2023 05:03:58
Interesting view Beckers but I don't agree with it wholesale. While true that it seems like Thiago's injury has seen an upturn in our form, I don't think the two are fully correlated. Our upturn in form has also coincided with the emergence of Bajcetic, the return to form of Fabinho and VVD, the improved link-up play between our front three, and the change in tactics for the team. I don't think all these can be fully attributed to Thiago being out of the team. Like Kaizer, I would wait to see if Thiago's return to the team (if at all) would see us continue our form or see us dip again.

It is possible though that Thiago's injury meant that we were 'forced' to change tactics to our present one so I would give that to you.

10 Mar 2023 05:27:44
I think that’s unfair, as unfair as it was to single out Trent. The whole team as a unit has been a shambles and it started from the front. They’ve shown signs over the last month or so of pressing as a more cohesive unit. Thiago would be fine if we plugged him straight in to how we’re playing now.

10 Mar 2023 05:50:24
I don't think there's anyone out there who doubts Thiago's talent and experience. He has loads of it and it's easy to see. But the question has always been if it fits into our style of play. Granted Klopp wants to use a more possession style of play and Thiago is well suited with that because he keeps the ball moving. But for me, despite the positives, he has always slowed our game down; something that negates our lightening fast counterattacks. He has that killer pass in him, but we are seeing more and more misplaced passes and I cringe when he goes in for a tackle, because he'll foul just as much as being timely with it. And then there are the injuries. Enough has been already said about that, though. For me he is no longer a starter, and should be used for certain teams; like those who park the bus, or play a slower midfield-heavy game.

10 Mar 2023 06:34:49
I would disagree with u Becker on that one. I think thiago is excellent player for us and when we where playing abysmally earlier in season I think was our only midfielder that was playing half reasonable.
Our recent good form I think has been massively influenced by gakpo playing so well as false 9,giving us extra man in midfield who can hold onto ball when needed
Also some of our players playing much better individually, trent, fab, salah spring to mind.

10 Mar 2023 07:22:10
I said similar on here the other day - great player but I think overall he hasn't improved the team like we all hoped he would and he's not going to change that now at 31. I was really happy when we signed him and some of his passing is a joy but I just don't think the transfer has been that successful. Not sure what we'd get for him now but he'd be one that gets sold to generate funds if I was in charge.

10 Mar 2023 07:25:38
BP always good to read your opinion mate and it’s caused a discussion which it’s all about.

I couldn’t disagree more (that’s not me saying I’m right and you’re wrong) .

Because Thiago isn’t to blame for any of the other players underperforming this season just as much as they aren’t to blame for him underperforming.

In the last 7 games we have won 5 but realistically only looked very good in spells against Newcastle, 2nd half against Wolves and the full game against Utd.

If it’s a simple case of Thiago being the problem then there’s no need to sign Bellingham in the summer and just get rid of Thiago.

Not only would we save 133 mill we would also make 10 mill in profit. And with that kind of granger policy FSG could end up offering you the DOF position lol.

Also if Thiago is the problem then doesn’t brag also suggest so is Klopp. Because 9 times out of 10 when he is fit Klopp will pick him.

So does that suggest Klopp as the manager doesn’t see it or refuses to see it?

Just my 2 pence worth mate.

10 Mar 2023 07:43:10
Also I want to throw in this.

Jota first game back from injury was Everton. Since his return we haven’t lost a league game or conceded a goal.

Perhaps it’s not Thiago to blame but Jota to praise.

After all it’s the exact same evidence in both cases.

10 Mar 2023 08:42:28
JK, hand on heart, and be honest, do you think signing Thiago has helped the team develop/ change like we all hoped he would (including Klopp I guess) - I don't think he has, he's 32 in a few weeks and seems to be as injury prone as we were all told he was by a few on here before he signed. Sometimes we have to admit things just haven't really worked out, doesn't detract from him being a great player just maybe not right for us.

Regardless though, he's even further away now from us being able to build a team around him so any midfield rebuilding will probably see him being a casualty IMO.

10 Mar 2023 08:47:31
Beckers, we have had this convo before and shocking I Know, I fully disagree with you. You are singling out Thiago as the cause for all our ills and sorry, that's NOT on. You have made it abundantly clear that Thiago has never been your cup of tea and like I have told you before, that is more than fine. However, this whole scapegoating of him needs to end cos you're better than that.

Saying him being missing is no coincidence that we are playing better is just a case of correlation WTYHOUT causation which means nothing, really which makes your argument look desperate. EVERYBODY has been poor this season and when we were really struggling, we were playing this wretched possession style which actually suits Thiago BUT with NO legs around him cos Hendo and Fab were poor and he had to play with Baj and Elliott which must NOT have helped him. Even then, he was breaking up play, winning possession and making tackles to win the ball back.

As many have said, the reason we are playing better is we have players back healthy and MOST importantly, we have reverted back to the press AND Fab is back cos he is no longer left on his own to chase shadows under pressure when we lose possession cos either Hendo, Baj or Elliott are next to him in a double pivot when out of possession which protects him. Did Thiago have that luxury thru out the time we were a shambles and he was the only one there putting out fires? Bro, stop with the scapegoating cos it's becoming desperate at this point. Again, you're better than this.

10 Mar 2023 08:54:26
Johnny cheers for the reply mate.

I’m not saying Thiago is the answer but I’m also not agreeing Thiago is the sole problem either.

The first season he came here within his first few games he was taken out at Everton and returned to a side that had no centre half’s and were struggling.

Last season he was very much part of a side that were flying so it’s hard to answer has he changed the team or has the team changed for him.

This might sound like a high horse comment but it’s not meant be “but seeing Thiago live compared to on Tv is a different kettle of fish”.

The first game I took my 13 year old son to was Leicester home last season and he always told me Thiago was crap and then from that night onwards he’s been one of his favourite players every time we’ve watched him.

Again it’s only my opinion and I don’t expect it to change others.

Some fans (including myself) have favourites and then have the players they aren’t keen on.

Christ if it was up to some Phillips and Gomez would be our first choice centre half’s with Jones probably as Captain lol.

This season he’s had just as many bad games as the rest of the other players in the team so.

10 Mar 2023 09:03:29
When we were going for all 4 last season Thiago was a big part of that. His form hasn't dropped if anything he's grown into his role at Liverpool and he now wins a lot more tackles than when he first came. His injury and upturn in form are purely coincidental. Fabinho being dropped for Baj for a few games has all of a sudden seen Fabs run again. Hendo being rested has seen his energy come back. Before this season look at Liverpools record when fabs and thiago started together. It was so good. Then what happened? Fabs started to play like his acillies had been cut and thiago was having to try and be the ball winner and the ball player. This is much more about fabs rejuvenation and bajcetic emergence than thiago being a problem.

10 Mar 2023 09:28:38
Why do people have such short memories? Last season he was crucial, we were much better with him in the side and most of his performances were a joy to watch.

He's been holding on to the ball too long this season because of a lack of options, Henderson has been aimlessly hoofing diagonals expecting someone to be there when they're not. Maybe its just the sign of a team with a new forward line not completely in sync. And maybe just maybe, we're hitting form now because they're all starting to click?

Crazy I know, easier to just blame Thiago.

10 Mar 2023 09:51:05
I think blaming Thiago for how bad we've been for most of this season is pushing it a bit, there have been a lot of poor performances and I haven't tried to apportion any blame in my comments. But I just don't think we've been quite as effective since we signed him. I understand why we did it - an attempt to change our style of play slightly - and his ability is there for all to see on the pitch but I just don't think it's really fully worked out and there are probably loads of other reasons for that.

It's a similar situation to Haaland at City - another absolutely fantastic player who seems to have made the team slightly worse overall, sometimes it just doesn't pay off.

Regardless though, I'll repeat what I said earlier, at 32 and pretty injury prone he must be one of the casualties of our midfield rebuild. We need younger legs in there and ones we can expect to play over 30 games a season regularly.

10 Mar 2023 11:07:05
No.

It's yet another case of correlation not equating to causation. Same goes for the claims that our decline is entirely down to Mane leaving, or that the players are upset about Salah's big contract.

This view isn't quite as silly as those, as there has been a clear upturn in form since he got injured. However, as has almost always been the case in his Liverpool career, his poor form wasn't a fair reflection of his skills set, or indeed his own flaws.

He has constantly been shunted into ill fitting roles in underperforming teams, the task of carrying the entire midfield forced upon him, even when that isn't his game. Even so, he gives it his best shot. He puts himself about, he wins headers, he gets silly yellow cards, he gives the ball away by trying to force a pass.

This is why I have always been such a staunch defender of Thiago. People jump to criticise him too quickly, because he represents the biggest change in our squad and style of play since the title winning season, therefore any poor form we experience must be down to him. I don't see it that way.

Whenever Thiago plays badly, it is usually because he is trying too hard to do the heavy lifting of those around him. For me, that is exactly the type of player I want. I'd rather someone who puts themselves out there, takes risks and responsibility, than someone who hides, even if they get it wrong. I'd rather have a character like Thiago than someone like Wijnaldum or Keita.

He is a wonderful player with quality that is unmatched by anybody in his position. He has extensive experience at the top of the game, with the character and leadership qualities to match. He is ageing, but still has so much more to give. He is injury prone, but with younger legs around him, I think we can accommodate that.

He is best used as he was at Bayern: an important part of the squad, but never leaned on too heavily. You can't build your entire style of play around someone who can only play so many games, but for the games he is available, he is more than worth it. I love the guy and I don't think people realise how lucky we are to have him. The pain of hindsight would be instant and regretful if we were to let him leave.

10 Mar 2023 12:53:41
I never said Thiago was the ONLY problem but he was a big problem.

I think Thiago is a great player and when teams are afraid to press us he comes into his own as he can sit outside the box, get time on the ball and pick passes and recycle the ball.

What we’ve seen this season is us lose the fear factor and teams come at us, pressing us in our own half. When Thiago is playing he gains comfortable possession, the full backs and midfield go forward, he dallies on the ball, loses it and we are screwed. That has led to people saying we have no legs in midfield but that’s not the case it’s just that we can’t afford to lose the ball when we have comfortable possession as our attacking formation is very, very different to our defensive formation. If we lose the ball whilst transitioning to our attacking formation we are just way too open.

It happened at least 3 or 4 times a game when Thiago was playing.

Like others have said he’s a great player but I think it’s been proven in the last few weeks that he’s just not the right player for us.

I appreciate everyone’s views but Oli I was not scapegoating anyone, I’m just making an observation based on what I see in front of me. I like Thiago but he’s needs to stay on the bench until all teams start playing a low block against us again which if we kick on from Sunday, won’t be long.

JK I don’t think you could really say Jota has been a major factor in us playing better as he hasn’t played that much. Although I do agree having more options up front has certainly helped and definitely has something to do with it.

Cheers for the replies, I was just interested in people’s thoughts really, not trying to single Thiago out but to me it has been obvious all season the issues he gives us.

10 Mar 2023 13:21:34
You right Becker. His best days are behind him same with Henderson.
They can knock out a game a week yes, and will be fine now we’re out of everything. But come next season when it’s 3 games a week again it’ll be the same unless they get Help in there.

10 Mar 2023 15:18:52
Thiago is mint, Beckers. He has always played this way you are complaining about hence, Klopp brought him in to play the exact way in a more controlled/ possession way you seem to either not understand or not like. You can point out the parts of his game you don’t like till the cows come home BUT those are the things Klopp brought him to do so criticising him and not including Klopp in your criticism is strange, IMO. He is doing what he is told to do and if it doesn’t work then, that is a coaching problem, NOT a player problem.

The guy was signed to do the job he is doing now BUT failure to put the legs around him either via recruitment or injury absences is what has hindered him from being the player Klopp wanted him to be, IMO. He was not brought in to play his role next to Baj and Elliott or with a poor Ox and a grade A flop like Naby. You continue to ignore these nuances in your argument which again, sounds strange.

At Bayern, he thrived in a double pivot with Goretzka or Kimich either side of him who were his legs yet you blame him for not doing the things he was NOT brought in to do? If anything, it is us who have failed him cos if he is having to put out fires and covering ground in midfield which was NEVER his game then, we have failed to put him in the best position to succeed fully even tho, he has been immense fir us when fit. Just look at last season or the final 10 games of 20/ 21 where he contributed a ton to us winning trophies and getting top 4.

10 Mar 2023 15:58:17
Ah. It's Thiago's turn.

10 Mar 2023 19:23:55
Dont get it, someone voices an opinion and everyone gets heated.

I agree our upturn in results has been in line with him being injured BUT i think him fully firing in this team is the difference maker. Out of our midfielders this season he has been the least crap. Having said all that, i would sell him and get a dynamic box to box midfielder for the left side, maybe calciedo? Or a more realistic target koopermieners from atalanta.

10 Mar 2023 20:12:23
Not really sure how everyone is getting heated?

Our upturn in results also coincides with Vvd being back for 4 of the 5 games we kept clean sheets in. For 2 and a half games he was missing we conceded 7 goals.

10 Mar 2023 21:47:36
Combination of things for me.

A) Nunez, Salah and Gakpo settled as a front 3.
B) Hendo, Trent and Fabinho returning to form.
C) Gomez injured (blessing) .
D) Virgil and Konate back fit.

Not sure Thiago being injured is related at all myself. I know you've held this opinion for some time but i think you're subconsciously finding vindication in a completely coincidental scenario. You're of course entitled to your opinion and hell, you might even be correct regardless of what I think.

11 Mar 2023 00:04:57
If we measure Thiago on the same metric we seem to hold the likes of Hendo and Elliot, then Thiago has basically had zero impact.

11 Mar 2023 00:18:18
MK that was why I put it out there. I have held this opinion for some time and have voiced it on numerous occasions and have been shot down by some but agreed with by others.

When Thiago got injured I posted that it would be interesting to see if my theory was correct and we would see an upturn in form with him out of the team.

We have seen an upturn which I agree is for various reasons but a major one for me is that we have started to pass the ball quicker in midfield and get the forwards involved earlier in the attacks when they have space to play. We are also not turning the ball over so much in dangerous positions which I have always thought Thiago was massively guilty of.

I’m not saying I’m right but I am asking if others have changed their opinions now the team seems to be operating better without him in the team.

To be honest I never expected Oli to change his mind as he is NEVER wrong and LOVES to prove it by writing things in CAPITALS.

I was interested in yours and JK’s views though as you do seem to be able to have more of a balanced debate.

I agree with your 1st point about the front 3. I also think having Jota and Bobby back has had an impact as we have more options but I think the other points kind of prove my point. I always said I expected Fabs, Hendo and Trent to improve without Thiago because they were getting caught out of position as he held the ball in comfortable possession so they get into an attacking formation for him to lose it and leave them chasing shadows.

Konate has been back for some of the time since Thiago has been out but we were keeping clean sheets before that. Even with Gomez in the team.

I’m obviously not saying that Thiago was the whole problem. Football is way more complicated than that but I do think it’s given us an opportunity to get back to having a more pragmatic midfield 3 which has stopped the rot and confidence is returning because of it. When we are flying and confident, Thiago is fine. When we are nervy and vulnerable he adds to the problem.

11 Mar 2023 11:17:16
BP GREAT post mate and it DEFINITELY got some debate going on here which is what it’s all about.

The TEAM have had an upturn in fortunes but the old age question of can they do it on a wet cold night in Stoke now falls on us as can we do it on a 1230 Saturday kickoff.