11 Mar 2024 08:57:50
We are disappointed with VAR and the Referees and this is now becoming a regular occurrence with Liverpool games and it cannot carry on. Someone needs to remove the PGMOL. I have argued they are not corrupt, but over the last months, I have changed my thinking. It has now become blatant and not just against LFC, but most clubs.
VAR has to be run by people who have no agenda, with refs being completely on their own and VAR decisions being relayed to fans and managers. I have been a red since 1964 and the only time I have seen a ref make a blatant decision was against inter Milian and he admitted that he took a bribe, so it has been around many years.
11 Mar 2024 09:42:16
The problem is that decisions, fouls, handballs are all subjective and so you will never get a system that gets it right every time.
Some people inexplicably think that Doku’s kung fu kick was not a foul. Usually these people have their own agenda, normally that they support rival clubs and want us to lose.
But as long as there is subjectivity there is room for manipulation and corruption because someone will always say the ref or VAR was right.
11 Mar 2024 10:12:02
@Beckers, spot on, before VAR decisions always had an element of subjectivity as referees were (are) human and humans make errors. The idea was to make decisions with VAR objective through the use of technology but, as per Peter Drury’s comments about what the VAR officials were saying the element of subjectivity still exists and it’s exasperating spectators who can’t see or hear what’s going on.
11 Mar 2024 10:14:23
BP, I disagree with the whole subjectivity stuff cos that's what white noise, IMO. To me, VAR should have been given to a totally independent body with NO skin in the game and is just there to do the job. The worst thing now is that VAR and the on pitch ref are in collaboration with each other and I will tell you why.
During the last apology tour Howard Webb went on and talking about how the Onana pen given to City at Goodison for the handball, he said that the VAR "worked hard to corroborate the on pitch decision by the ref. Let that sink in for a moment. So essentially, Webbo told the truth out loud bt very few people clocked it in that, VAR is there to corroborate the ref's on pitch decision, NOT to make sure we get to the right decision. Again, let that marinade a bit.
Fast forward to yesterday. As soon as the Doku incident happened, M. Oliver immediately says NO. despite being far away from the play and not having a good view of it. So what does the VAR do? He "corroborates" the on pitch decision IN SPITE of the fact that all the replays showed Oliver was 100% wrong.
Then they come out with some buffoonery story about "Doku getting the ball first" which is a blatant lie cos Doku did NOT get the ball first as per the actual rule, getting the ball first does NOT matter at all. This is the ACTUAL agenda we have to live with from the PGMOL. Make relentless incompetence of the refs appear legitimate by twisting the rules to suit their dubious objectives of making the PL entertainment rather than a fair competition amongst all parties.
11 Mar 2024 11:04:55
I've stated on here a few times that VAR should be like the video ref in Rugby League. In the event of any doubt the video ref takes over, and everything he says can be heard so it's clear.
Sometimes it falls down when they can't see the ball, but this happens very seldom.
It is not like VAR where the ref and whoever is on VAR duty can have private conversations, so nobody really knows what is happening.
All clubs are suffering because of this, but we do seem to have been on the end of several bad calls this season.
11 Mar 2024 11:10:41
Dont believe it is conspiracy or corruption (w/ sheer money involved wouldn’t be shocked), more PGMOLs lack of consistency exasperated by their primary focus being backing each other over focusing on getting decision right.
Ref admit covering for there each other and saw comment on sky about VaR not re-reffing games. W/ later…is that not literally entire point of the point of VaR? Only LFC examples but is 99% of games I watch:
Diaz onside goal - clearly wrong decision but said couldn’t as had re-started game, but knew was wrong so change it. United got penalty after final whistle (if right decision happy they got it, as correct decision) . Jones red card, seen worse not given but made worse by freeze frame of worse angle, near identical not given and villas yesterday just wasn’t. City’s first, arsenal do it weekly yet VVD chalked off - just clarify can’t block. Same for city’s pen against united for grappling, happens regularly but prize draw. Gets me more as just clarify, make statement - be consistent. Manhandling, arms around or nfl shoving players out of way is cheating. If allowing jib it, sign Brian shaw have him block 3 players and the keeper then score bucketfuls from set plays. Handballs is a nonsense - seen 5 min reviews for for ones where only fault is the player has arms, yet odegards foray into NBA isnt.
Finally doku’s, honestly knew wouldn’t be given but as with city’s 1st wasn’t even reviewed / ref asked to review. Just don’t see how of alll the lengthy reviews this season neither were. Ball first or “anywhere else is a foul” both show issues - a foul is a foul regardless where and dangerous play is dangerous whether get ball first. Remember (want to say jones) has scratch marks from studs on his torso from foul not given or players with shirts stretched out after game from grabbing. Added playing to whistle when clearly offside is extremely dangerous esp with through on goal ?- have literally seen skull fractures yet refs all hi five after.
More on us for not putting game to bed but reminds me with mma / boxing’s “don’t leave it in judges hands”. Ignoring are top 0.1% of game and isn’t as easy as local 5 v 5 for better team to blow away opposition. Sure can all reel a list of better ways to handle VaR but with calamity job being done can’t see past scraping all involved, get best from sport in and review / change system focusing on getting right calls and transparency.
11 Mar 2024 11:25:33
I think Becker got it exactly right. Ultimately, all officiating is purely subjective. Some refs call tighter games, some "let them play". You can always set out a method or standar, but every official will interpret that their own way.
It's tough. I lean toward it being a penalty, but I also saw some missed opportunities on both side. It was a good performance overall and now the team has to focus on winning out.
11 Mar 2024 11:48:16
There are people incl ex-pros who don’t believe it was a pen, some of he believe it was a pen. So it’s clearly not 100% wrong.
We’re doing the thing that all fans do…getting all geeky about it because we didn’t get a call.
It’s already been nailed here. Some of the calls are subjective and they will make mistake and some that we don’t agree with. This is t up there with the Diaz mistake . Time to move on already.
{Ed025's Note - well said faith, put the hankies away and move on mate..
11 Mar 2024 13:43:25
Surly the right way to work var would be to do it like rugby where conversation can be listened to by fans. Never going to get everything right but surly the correct call yesterday would've been to send ref to monitor and talk it threw.
For me it was a pen but not a calamity of a mistake by officals like diaz goal or odegaard handball. If u could hear how they come to decision of non pen u could accept it better.
{Ed002's Note - No, it would lead to grief with the fans. Rugby fans are very well behaved.}
11 Mar 2024 13:47:33
Ed025 I think VAR needs to be gone I thought it was a pen with what we have seen them given for all ready this season.
But for me that Brighton game yesterday I don’t think I have seen a worse challenge all season and VAR did not think that was a ref who ever was doing VAR should instantly be sacked today because they can’t know what he was doing.
{Ed025's Note - i have been saying it all along grino, scrap it until they have perfected it mate, in its present form its a joke with the inconsistencies and weekly mistakes, the one at Brighton was a shocker and heads should roll for that one, but its not as if its a one off these things are happening on a regular basis and its not fit for purpose imo..
11 Mar 2024 13:53:16
Ed25. Good to see you around. Hope all is good your side mate. Hoping Everton can pull clear of the relegation zone. Rivalries aside, I don’t want to see Everton in the Championship. Whereas, I would love to see City there if they are punished ?.
{Ed025's Note - hi Alonso mate, we are a bit of a mess as a club to be honest, a pretty poor squad paired with the financial mess we are in does not make for happy campers im afraid and i think we will struggle to stay up, especially if we get another points deduction..
11 Mar 2024 13:59:21
Faith, and what criteria are they using to say that it was not a pen? Cos if their only criteria is that, "Oh, Doku got a touch of the ball"? The rule does not care about that. Or, "Well, some go for you, and some don't. ", Again, VAR was supposed to get rid of that.
And lastly, "Oh, it was too late in the game to give such a decision cos that would ruin the game and the excitement of the title race" something I have actually seen some say then, that is absolute hogwash cos that thinking should NEVER come into a ref's discretion esp. since we know that anywhere else on the pitch, that is a blatant foul and a potential booking.
So I ask you again. which reason (s) did the ex pros. you have seen or heard, give for saying it was not a pen?
11 Mar 2024 14:11:56
I’m on the same page with some posters here
Most of football decisions are subjective, and I’m totally fine with it
I’m not fine with
1) the promise that VAR will be the precision science to eliminate all errors. It simply can’t because football rules has a subjectivity basis. So they made a promise that they can’t fulfil
2) adding to that, they now make up rules as they go along to cover for their inadequacies and over promise. It confuses the game more as these rules or explanations are invented retrospectively and reactively, hence they change across time and are very inconsistent
I did rather we go back to what it was. On field refs are the only ones to make the call. We live with tight calls, pull our hair out for a couple of weird calls in a season. But we have no delays, no onfield ref and VAR hiding behind each other, not wondering of why VAR didn’t intervene in this but intervened in that. Just play football, referee referees the game and move on with life.
{Ed025's Note - im with you sg, you are spot on mate..
11 Mar 2024 14:44:49
A studs up tackle that catches a player in the chest isn’t subjective Faith, it is a clear foul as per the rules of the game. That’s it, it is a foul. It was not given because the officials and VAR are either inept or corrupt, and because as seems to continually happen, City get the rub of the green. There is subjectivity in certain decisions, this is as clear as you can get.
11 Mar 2024 16:02:44
It was a penalty. End of story.
11 Mar 2024 15:59:00
What happened at brighton game ed? I didn't watch it as i was busy crying about the pen ?.
{Ed025's Note - the challenge by Moder on Neco Williams was a shocker Liverbird, both feet off the ground and Williams was very lucky not to have broken his leg mate, the referee gave him a yellow and VAR backed him up, see it on You Tube mate its an outrageous decision..
11 Mar 2024 16:49:58
But get a drop ball wrong and you're demoted.
{Ed025's Note - exactly JLC
11 Mar 2024 17:22:44
Seano_, my point exactly. Studs to the chest is NOT a subjective issue. Why? There is literally a RULE on the PL books that is crystal clear and in that rule, contact with the ball (or none) is NOT considered at all. It is that black and white and clear as day, as you say. There is nothing subjective to see here, period.
So again, I refuse to be gaslit with this pathetic notion that it is subjective cos it is not. Never has been. In fact, it is O-bjective since there is a rule for this. VAR and Oliver bottled it, massively. The End!
Also, I would ask those using subjectivity and all that to actually go and check the rule and then, come back so we can debate this honestly cos I fell Im being gas-lit here, honestly.
11 Mar 2024 19:07:55
I get what you are saying Oli but you can’t referee a game based on rules written in a book. There is always subjectivity in nearly every decision.
The fact that we have some people saying that it wasn’t a pen shows you that.
I feel like when I watch a game I know when something isn’t right. As someone who has played and watched football all my life you just know, you get an instinct for it. It’s an instinct that refs used to have but it’s been lost from the game with VAR as they are now too busy trying apply rules to every situation instead of refereeing the game.
The game is now being refereed on screens, in slow mo so they lose that instinct of what happened in the moment.
The problem is they now have time to search for a rule to back up the decision they want. In this instance the rule they chose was ‘he got the ball first’ which as we all know is not the point. Had they applied the correct rule of a high boot in the chest it would’ve been given. Also if the ref had the instinct of a football man instead of relying on VAR to get him out of having to make big decisions he would’ve seen it was a pen and had no choice but to give it.
It’s a double whammy. Refs don’t make big decisions because they rely on VAR and VAR do everything they can to back up the refs incorrect decision.
11 Mar 2024 19:22:27
What about the tackle by city keeper on Darwin he was no where near the ball he only had intention to hit Darwin if he did that off the pitch he would of been done for GBH red card all day in my opinion if he comes out his area and hand ball the ball he gets red card which do you think would be the most dangerous .
11 Mar 2024 20:48:34
Only the Diaz one against Spurs was blatantly corruption, all the other ones don’t come close to that one.
Subjective opinions, yes. Bias decisions, yes.
Corruption = when a legitimate goal is scored. confirmed by VAR. Not counted on the scoreboard.