07 oct 2025 06:38:54
i'm sure it's already been covered, but as a lifelong liverpool supporter and fierce hater of racism, can i just say, i'm 100% with gary neville.
Agree22
07 Oct 2025 19:49:28
It’s not racist to be concerned by the influx of unchecked backwards people into the country, plenty of non “white middle age men” think exactly the same.
07 Oct 2025 21:42:16
Influx lol.
Plenty of "unchecked backwards people" are born in England to English parents. You don't have any control over whether they live beside you or not.
07 Oct 2025 21:59:55
But we have no choice with those do we? What’s wrong with checking migrants and selecting the good ones that want to better themselves, not compete **** that go round being an absolute nuisance and a drain on the economy.
Or do you want that? I’m confused as to what your point is.
{Ed078's Note - that would be called "processing" asylum applications. Something the tories chose not to do for years. Numbers are quickly coming down. Where were the "flag" protests 2 years ago when the numbers hit their peak?
Face it, this is all a confected crisis designed to promote racist agendas.
07 Oct 2025 23:02:31
Some people have their eyes wide shut. Take a look at what's happening in this country. Childrens concerts being bombed, kids getting murdered in dance classes, people being murdered in the street all due to extremist ideology. To call it racist to want reduce the chance of these things happening is sad.
07 Oct 2025 23:11:37
It's racist if you only riot when a crime is committed by a non-white. A scumbag asylum seeker tries to assault a girl in Epping, absolute bedlam. In the last year of records in Epping, there were over 1300 reports of sexual assault - crickets.
So, is it ok for white blokes like me to be sexual perverts and attack "our women and girls", because I'm white?
07 Oct 2025 23:26:04
What does it have to do with being white? I know Muslims who are very against what is happening but would not say anything in public as we work in a place where we cannot risk our livelihood by being misconstrued. Its easy to categories people as being far right or racist as it means no meaningful dialogue can happen. Do you know anyone from Iran? Ask them what they think of Islamic extremist ideology. Ask them how dangerous it is. Honestly, people need to look into things for themselves before being dismissive due to the media labelling things as far right.
{Ed078's Note - Nobody is talking about Islamic extremism. We should all be against all extremes. So, what does it have to do with being white? Who is stoking the current hatred? Steven Yaxley-Lennon, and similar, the very definition of far right, white nationalism. "Ain't no black in the Union Jack" is being sung on the streets once again, like I grew up hearing in the 70s and 80s.
If these are just "legitimate concerns" around immigration levels, then why were there no flags, no riots 2 years ago, at the height of immigration levels?
Apologies, this thread should really have been on the politics page.
08 Oct 2025 06:14:37
If we are all against extremism why as a government are we so scared to actually look after the country and kick out people likely to cause a problem. I don’t know a good sign might be someone’s dad who praised hamas for oct 7th, and I don’t know called their son jihad get them out! That’s not racist.
Illegal boat crossing are up considerably 4 fold ed, not talking about legal migration. I’m up for finding the best people in the world to Combe here and make the country great, black, white, brown or multi coloured. Not the **** of the earth which some are!
Not everyone waving the flag about is racist some maybe but not all, and if it’s not suddenly not ok to wave the Union Jack why is the Palestine flag left untouched?
{Ed078's Note - small boats are up since brexit, a consequence of Tory policy shutting down safe and legal routes. Nobody is against removing dual citizens who behave awfully. Also, Jihad doesn't mean "holy war", it means "struggle".
Not everyone waving the flag is racist, or course not, but were they doing it 2 years ago, or just since little Tommy Ten Names started stirring the pot and Farage started lying about the Southport scumbag (sorry, he was simply asking questions).
The Palestinian flag being waved is a result of the current turmoil there. We don't have that turmoil here, despite what certain people and media tell you.
Also, the Palestinian flag is routinely attacked and ripped from people's hands, as is the Israeli flag, neither of which should happen.
08 Oct 2025 07:26:33
Gary Neville wasn't talking about white middle aged men being 'concerned' though, was he? He was talking about division and bigotry.
Well said, Ed078. Some excellent posts, there.
08 Oct 2025 07:40:28
As long as people are coming here for the right reasons and are properly vetted then there is no problem as long as its sustainable for the country. Obviously there will be a portion of people who are racist jumping on the bandwagon, which is sad as these people can be pointed to and the message is dismissed as racist or far right. The unrest has been growing for a while, you can't just say why didn't all this happen 2 years ago. It's a build up of more and more people opening their eyes to what is happening. Speak to someone from Iran, ask them what has happened to their country due to Islamic extremist ideology. If you don't know anyone from Iran, google Iran 70s. We should not be allowing people with this Ideology into the country snd if found they do believe in these things then they should be removed.
08 Oct 2025 08:45:36
All good discussion on here although a bit out of place in a football forum. Speaking about Iran in the 70s, we should also question and ask what caused the change from then to now. Interference from the West is the main cause of disruption in the East and Global South, which is where most of the people seeking asylum are from. The solution is simple though, if the West do not want these people to enter their countries, then they should stop interfering in the countries of others as well. The unrest that we see in the Middle East and in Africa now is almost always tied to a Western Power, either currently or historically. If you get out of their countries, they'd get out of yours.
{Ed001's Note - well said.}
08 Oct 2025 09:08:12
Even country’s in the Middle East that are thriving won’t take their own people so what does that say?
So are you saying Ed that Union Jack is not ok but Palestine flag is?
{Ed001's Note - oh you have no idea what you are talking about, typical ignorant bigot who should stick to painting roundabouts rather than spreading Israeli propaganda. Absolutely embarrassing nonsense. You clearly need to educate yourself on the Middle East. As for the Union Jack, depends on whether it is waved by racist bigots like Stephen Jaxley-Lennon as an excuse to get all Oswald Mosley on the country or genuine patriots. Because most of you only wave it as a white power racist thing.}
08 Oct 2025 11:52:25
Speak to people from Iran Dracred, then form your opinion. I've spoken with multiple seperate people from their and they all say exactly the same thing. Persian people belive in the right to not have religion forced upon them, which is what is happening. Not long ago their was a protest because a woman was killed for not wearing a burka. That protest ended with over 1000 dead people. Actually speak to people from countries where extreme ideologies are enforced, then form your opinions rather than assuming its something the people who live there actually want.
08 Oct 2025 12:20:00
And I'm telling you to read up on the history of Iran and how those extremist ideologies came in the first place. Honestly, it's like talking to a wall with you. Iran was progressing well before the influence of Western powers, particularly by the US who felt threatened by the rise of Iran, during that period that brought about Islamist extremism. Read and educate yourself first please on the history of all these places before you speak.
08 Oct 2025 12:54:54
A couple of you on this thread really need to learn a thing or two.
Drac, bravo mate.
08 Oct 2025 13:07:58
Its not the west enforcing extremist ideologies in Iran. there's no reason to try to belittle me or my opinion when it is shared by people who lived in the country. You need to educate yourself. Did you know about the protesters who were killed? Did you read up on that? Do you know the majority of Persians do not want to be enforced to be religious and believe it should be a choice? Its seems like you think because its in that part of the world and they have a similar skin colour that they are all happy to be forced to adhere to islamic ideologies.
{Ed001's Note - it actually is the west, it is funded by Israel and the USA. Just like they created Hamas and funded it because they didn't like the PLO.}
08 Oct 2025 13:10:18
Well said, as well, Ed001.
Painting roundabouts had me chuckling out loud 😂.
08 Oct 2025 13:29:52
Anyway, I'd like to apologise to the Eds too for taking this topic further than it needs to. I get kinda heated when talking about the harm caused by Western powers on the rest of the world since I am from a region that witnessed it first hand. This will the last that I'll be engaging on this topic on this forum.
08 Oct 2025 18:29:23
For those British people on here, living in Britain, the ballot box will decide which route we go down, in 4 years time. At this moment in time the 2 main parties would take a caning. But, as someone famously said, a month is a long time in politics.
08 Oct 2025 18:45:24
Please forgive me, when I say British, I mean all people who are eligible to vote in Britain.
08 Oct 2025 13:07:48
Ed078….
I have to disagree mate, the numbers are not going down and quite frankley people have had enough.
I’m all for controlled immigration, I’ve lived all over the UK and have lots of very good friends from different cultural backgrounds
I was made redundant from work back in 2021 and got zero help in the great scheme of things having laid my taxes since the age of 16, I work hard. I decided to set up my own business in 2021 and with the like of work I’m in, it’s nearly a year before my first payment.
So I applied for a new enterprise scheme to help new business The New Enterprise Allowance (NEA) provided a payment of up to £1,274 over 26 weeks, paid as £65 per week for the first 13 weeks and £33 per week for the following 13 weeks. To get this I had to provide a comprehensive business plan for £65 a week, reducing to £33. Whilst building my business I had to take a part time job stacking shelves from 6 in the morning in a supermarket.
So, when I see, people coming over in boats, being put up in hotels, given money to live, taxis to hospital appointments then when they are sent back, receive £2k to re settle!
Sorry, but I went through a really rough time to make sure my family were fed …
Cheers
Drogie.
{Ed078's Note - sorry to hear finances have been a struggle. If you visited a 4 star hotel and they put you in a dorm style room, fed you really awful food with no choice, shut down the gym, the sauna, the bar, the restaurant, laid off staff to pocket more of the takings, would you describe it as a 4 star hotel? Of course you wouldn't. How much money do you think they're actually given to live, seriously?
And no, failed asylum seekers are not paid to leave.
Asylum seekers in the UK receive a maximum weekly financial support of £49.18 per person (around £7 per day) if they are destitute and their accommodation does not include meals. If meals are provided through their assigned accommodation, the cash support is reduced to £10 per person per week. This funding is for essentials like food, clothing, and toiletries, with a small portion for travel or other cost
THe thing is, the applications processes need speeding up. If they are found not to be valid, they can be removed, though Brexit has made this harder.
Why is it that when we feel needy people aren't being looked after, we're told it's the fault of even needier people, rather than those higher up whose wealth continues to grow? Remind me how much was wasted on useless PPE to tory mates?
09 Oct 2025 03:36:03
What counties can British citizens move to and expect their host governments to take care of them at the expense of their own citizens? I'm not "in the know" but I can't think of any off the top of my head.
09 Oct 2025 05:18:57
Off the top of my head: Germany, the Netherlands, Sweden, Norway, Canada, Australia, the US, plus lots more.
Pretty much any country signed up to the 1951 Refugee Convention.
09 Oct 2025 07:05:57
Let’s stick to football!
09 Oct 2025 08:21:05
It's a useless international break, no problem have a "discussion". My original point was about a comment made by an ex-footballer, so kind of ok to discuss.
Maybe my formative years in the environs of Liverpool homes, social clubs, pubs, schools even, has ingrained a tolerance and acceptance of others that sticks with me today. I like to think my scouse heritage instils in me the siding with the underdog, the oppressed and down trodden. This causes me to speak out when racism and xenophobia rears its ugly head once again, stoked by the usual grifters who care not one jot about the ordinary person. Yaxley-Lennon and Farage are skid stains on the fabric of decent society and should be called out for what they are. Scum.
09 Oct 2025 12:13:18
Like Drogie says, the majority of people in Britain have had enough of a situation that is getting worse. I live in one of the most multi cultural areas of the country and the view is shared by other ethnicities. If that makes the majority of the country racist, so be it.
Like I said, the way forward will be decided by the ballot box, ultimately.
09 Oct 2025 14:49:59
Who are the people that have had enough going to vote for to provide the way forward?
Just so I know, like.
09 Oct 2025 15:33:16
It's a good question you ask, Rigsby. I'm not that intelligent, mate, and don't claim to have the answer. If there were to be an election at this moment in time, the unthinkable would happen and dear ol Nigel would be running the country. However, there is another 4 years to wait, for all the main party's to pledge what the majority of the country want to hear. I'm not losing sleep over it, I'm merely adding my opinion to a debate, as an old white bloke. Things cannot carry on in the same trajectory. A view shared by the majority, in my humble opinion.
09 Oct 2025 16:07:55
BB, I think all of us on here have a bleeding heart for those in need, but we maybe need to redefine and/ or rethink who is exactly in need and who's possibly looking to "take advantage" of those with the "big hearts. "
09 Oct 2025 18:44:44
There are people coming here who are not refugees and aren't coming here for saftey, they are the people who need to be stopped. I'm not sure how there csn be any disagreement over that. When I previously pointed out what has happened to Iran due to an extreme ideology, it was to point out the dangers of those ideologies being allowed into our country. Why does it matter if it was due to western interference as claimed? Does that make okay for a childrens concert to be blown up or kids to be murdered at a dance class? Is it their fault that the "Western powers" caused islamic extremists? I'm sure that will be some comfort to the kids parents and family. I live in a very multicultural area, I work in a very multicultural field. To call me racist when I know that all cultures I speak to feel exactly the same is laughable. I think some on here are out of touch with what actually goes on in the country.
{Ed001's Note - well you are spouting racist and false rhetoric about the kids being murdered at a dance class - that was by a christian, unless you are referring to christianity as an ideology that shouldn't be allowed in? It is certainly nothing to do with islamic extremists. You might want to stop listening to Nigel Farage and that other f-wit Tommy Robinson before spreading their lies on here.}
09 Oct 2025 19:03:25
From Sky News "Rudakubana downloaded a 190-page document titled Military Studies In The Jihad Against The Tyrants, commonly referred to as the "al Qaeda training manual". Was the lad that blew up the concert also Christian? How is hard to accept that EXTREMIST ideology is bad? Its easier to call someone racist than discuss it properly I suppose. You have no idea who I am but I can assure you I am far from racist.
09 Oct 2025 18:47:55
A politics page is needed.
{Ed033's Note - Yes.
09 Oct 2025 18:47:55
A politics page is needed.
09 Oct 2025 08:52:52
Ed078,
Sorry mate but you are wrong
An asylum seeker can be paid up to £2,000 (or a similar amount) under the UK's Voluntary Return Scheme (or Facilitated Return Scheme), which provides financial incentives to migrants and foreign criminals to encourage them to leave the country voluntarily and resettle in their home countries. These payments are on preloaded bank cards and aim to save taxpayer money by reducing long-term costs associated with housing and supporting individuals, a policy has faced public criticism! Taxis to hospital appointments, one from the south to Scotland!
As for the hotels, these aren’t run down shanty shacks, one of my friends recently got married in one that is now an asylum hotel, a really nice hotel, a hotel full of men, not families, I see it with my own eyes.
You keep bringing up the Tories wasting money, Labour have been exactly the same over the years, I’m 52 and seen it all, with the next party haven’t to pick up the mess. And by the way, I support neither as they are all as bad as each other, broken promises the lot of them.
I had to give a comprehensive business plan and report into the the government scheme for eventually £33 a week! In order to feed my family. l, hence why I fad to take on a part time job stacking shelves from 6am.
I’m not racist, far from it but the country has had enough. I have a lot of business connections and it’s a topic raised its head all the time, these steer so called “ middle aged racist white men “ far from it, people from all walks of life. It’s ok for Gary Neville so sit there and spurt his nonsense, sat behind his gated house, not having to worry about anything. The irony of it all, those “ middle aged white blokes” are the ones that put him where here is today, paying the gate money to watch him play week in week out.
Cheers
Drogie.
{Ed078's Note - in quite specific circumstances payments can be accessed, but it's not all from the government, often run in conjunction with the IOM, International Organization for Migration.
So, your mate chose to get married in a hotel full of male asylum seekers? Strange.
I bring up the Tories because they have created the current situation re asylum backlogs. Also, when they came into power the NHS patient satisfaction level was the highest on record. After over a decade of austerity, brexit, Johnson and Truss, where is that satisfaction level now? So, both parties spend lots of money. One spends it on the NHS, one fills wheelbarrows full of cash for dodgy PPE.
And, I didn't say all those currently unhappy with immigration are racist, I said those stoking the anger are racist. Like I said, immigration levels were higher 2 years ago. Where was your anger then?
09 Oct 2025 22:50:04
No it isn’t.
09 Oct 2025 23:37:00
Drogie, you are spot on, mate. I don't give a flying fish if I'm branded a racist. I live here and can see what's happening. I'm not influenced by those so called anger stirrers. The majority have had enough. End of.
10 Oct 2025 01:49:24
You're not influenced by anger stirrers? So, when the levels were higher 2 years ago and the hate wasn't being stirred, you were up in arms about it then, maybe even attending organised protests? Oh sorry, there weren't any organised protests. Wonder why?
10 Oct 2025 01:50:26
Salmon monk, what isn't?
10 Oct 2025 07:16:16
Burkey, I'm not up in arms, now, and my view was the same 2 years ago, as were those of family and mates, and I include mates of colour.
{Ed078's Note - your mates of colour were not happy with the number of people of colour in their area? OK.
10 Oct 2025 07:20:41
The exact same discussion is going on in Ireland as use are having here as regards England.
Reality is here that we've a bloated, overpaid public sector which is draining the countries resources, it's been happening for years and the immigrant issue is just a handy way to cover the real problem and blame somebody else when it's greed on our own people's behalf.
From dealing with some english companies threw work I do find from them that they feel the English economy is in v bad shape.
10 Oct 2025 07:36:39
And for the record, Burkey, the only organised rally that I've been on, and I've been on loads, were organised by the TUC.
10 Oct 2025 08:44:01
As an ex union rep I am glad to hear that. As an ex union rep from Fazakerley, the vast majority of our members would be standing in solidarity with genuine asylum seekers and rejecting the rhetoric of hate stirrers. But, maybe I'm wrong.
10 Oct 2025 08:50:29
Time to get back to the Banter page and Liverpool FC.
10 Oct 2025 09:30:37
A lot of people don't understand the difference between an immigrant, an illegal immigrant, an asylum seeker, refugee etc.
None of the above will be stopped nor should they be. Many of us are being led to believe they are the root of our all problems. That doesn't mean it's not a problem but this 'stop the boats' nonsense isn't going to do anything.
It's a worldwide problem and it doesn't just affect us despite what the Lickle Englanders think.
Maybe if the Tories did the job of processing immigrants, illegal immigrants, asylum seekers, refugees etc then they wouldn't need to be put up in hotels and be used by the media to stir up hate.
It's now being used as a vote winning tool even though no one seems to know how to deal with them.
That's the key because they won't and shouldn't be stopped from crossing borders.
{Ed001's Note - well said Rigsby.}
10 Oct 2025 12:46:56
Rigsby, your last sentence appears to suggest open borders, which no sovereign state should advocate. Mass uncontrolled migration is causing significant issues across Europe, in relation to vastly different cultures and failure to integrate. Anyone pretending there is no problem, or suggesting that citizens who do have concerns are just bigoted racists are clearly in denial.
The electorate have been betrayed by the 2 main parties for too long, but it is a divisive subject certain to cause strong feelings whichever side you are on. Best left to a politics side indeed.
10 Oct 2025 13:26:50
Im from ireland and were having the same situation as England at the moment. Surely anyone turning up to a country without papers or identification should simply be refused entry. No one has problems with genuine cases of people entering the country but i just can't see how people can't understand the genuine concerns over the vile, evil and advantage taking criminals that are also entering into our society, around our kids and women without labelling them far right or racists. Most people i would know feel the same. Also on the flag thing its now"weapoising"the flag if you hang a tricolor over here which is very very sad. But i suppose get both sides fighting over a bit of fabric and they forget about the thousands of childran sleeping homeless or the elderly who'll struggle to feed and heat themselves this winter.
10 Oct 2025 13:29:49
Good post, Greenflash. You articulated it better than I could have.
Now, please, let's get back to talking about what this site is all about.
10 Oct 2025 14:46:03
Couldnt give a monkeys about politics and it should never be in sport!
Damn bickering does my tree in, football.
10 Oct 2025 11:43:44
Sorry Ed078 it processed by the government and we, I as a tax payer are paying for this. You say the numbers of crossings are coming down, on Wednesday alone, there were another 1084 arriving, so the numbers are not coming down, statistically the numbers have never been higher!
Re my friend getting married, you've totally missed the point. You referenced that the hotels were hardly luxury with sauna's and gyms, well, before the hotel was turned into an asylum residence, it was a lovely hotel and still is. and my friend weas married in the hotel before - clearly.
I agree the ppe scandel was wrong and like many of the Tory policies, the way the city was treated back in the 80's, I remember. But then you have labour, Look at Tony Blair, he was the one that opened the door for more, less controlled immigration. It was Tony Blair that sided with Bush and the destabilisation of the middle east, agreeing there were weapons of mass destruction hidden. All these figures of a 22b black hole in the countries finances - I have a friend / client who is extremely high up within the Morgan Stanley group, those numbers are incorrect.
You say I'm angry, comment the day that one mate. My best mate is a sikh and I had the privilege of being welcomed into his family and was best man at his wedding and do you know what, he would agree with everything I say.
So I'll ask you this one question and then we should leave it 78 mate. For the last 10 years or so I've been parking at the same spot when at the match every home game. On my way home I see a homeless lady, sat in the cold in winter asking for money. I give her a pound every time, now this this may go towards drugs, who knows but why, why is she not given a roof over her head? warm surroundings and money? why hasn't she been given a pre loaded credit card to help rebuild her life? the chance to possibly rehabilitate if there is an issue?
Think about it.
{Ed078's Note - gee, where to start. Your initial comment was about the tough finiancial position of you and many others. You cited people getting paid to leave as some sort of counterbalance. Think about that, a possible handful of people given assistance to leave, peanuts in the grand scale of things, and that's one of your main points. Do you see my point? You're looking down, not up, as they want you to, classic tactic of those in wealth and power.
I didn't say crossings were coming down, I said the peak of the immigration numbers have come down. That's not my opinion, that's counting, so why no riots and hysteria a few years ago?
The hotel you reference matches with my statement. It WAS a lovely hotel, with room service, sauna, bar etc... it is not that now. It's a facility that you wouldn't pay to stay at.
I mention financial mismanagement and corruption of the tories and you bring up weapons of mass destruction hoax. Ok, don't even know where to go with that.
My reference to people being angry now is to make the point that certain vested interests have fanned the flames now, not a few years ago when numbers were higher, I don't know how many times I have to repeat and ask that question.
And finally, you come to the tried and tested argument of saying "why can't we look after our own"? I agree. The thing is, we can, we just choose not to. The money is there, but immigrants are to blame for a tiny fraction of it. The wealthier get wealthier, corporations get favourable tax status, but you reference a homeless woman alongside an implicit reference to migrants being to blame (that is what this whole discussion is about so assuming it's on your mind when bringing her up).
From what I've read from you, it's the exact same argument the right wing press, the far right, Reform UK LTD, and little Tommy ten names want you to make.
Think about it.
11 Oct 2025 23:03:04
If you really think immigration is the issue to solve to fix this country you are far from wrong. you are being deceived and pointed in the wrong direction it’s corporate greed and people filling there pockets in government and higher positions and the gap between working class and middle class to upper class larger… millionaires/ billionaires are laughing at us.
Growing up in the 90/ 00s I was told if you didn’t study you’d end up working at mcdonalds (nothing wrong with that tbh) it’s not that anymore it’s you’ll end up painting roundabouts and hanging flag on lampposts like a wally.
12 Oct 2025 01:37:44
Some still don't seem to understand that kloppers.
12 Oct 2025 07:21:23
Reading you lot try to have a debate on global politics is like reading Troy Deeney talking about football. Thank you for the chuckles.
12 Oct 2025 08:52:04
Middle class. no such thing, more like a class act of people thinking they belong just enough above the poor to be classed as not poor but no where near the levels of upper class. If your on 50k a year, own a house, cars etc and think your middle class. your deluded, ib the eyes of the upper class your still poor, just not on the breadline.
12 Oct 2025 09:41:54
So let's have open borders and see where we end up.
12 Oct 2025 11:35:52
That would be a fair comparison, if Troy had a PhD in international relations.
12 Oct 2025 11:58:58
@burkey: The irony being a” middle aged white man” turned middle aged white men against each other in a alien environment ( it’s a football banter site not politics)
12 Oct 2025 16:10:31
I know I said I'd stay away from this thread but I can't help it. Football has been always been politicised. Just take a look at the recent world Cup host nations. It was political that they held it in Russia and Qatar. Even the club world Cup and the next world Cup in USA is political in nature. Just ask why did the president of the USA meet football teams in the oval office and give out the club world Cup trophy then. Football and politics has always been intertwined so there's no such thing as "keep politics out of football"
13 Oct 2025 09:03:50
Whatever people want to say about migrants, illegal, legal, asylum seekers or whatever.
They aren’t anywhere near the problem in your life that politicians are making it out to be.
13 Oct 2025 17:27:43
They are illegal. There is a reason they’re paying thousands and putting there lives in danger coming over on a dinghy when trains coaches and ferries are about £100.
14 Oct 2025 11:48:06
And they're not allowed to enter via the means you mentioned.
And, they're only illegal if their claims are jusgef invalid and don't leave.
15 Oct 2025 11:49:11
Not getting involved in this other than it’s such shame as a nation we no longer get anything right.