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22 Jan 2024 08:41:20
I wondered why we didn’t get that red card decision for the Kluivert tackle, and also never got the nailed on penalty for the tackle on Jota. Then I found out that Paul Tierney was the VAR ref and it all made sense. I’m 100% certain Utd and City would have got those decisions.

Agree26 Disagree0

22 Jan 2024 09:12:37
Now, bear with me here. I do not think that Kluivert was a red card, in the same way that neither Jones nor Mac Allister should have been.

It looks like a red card when you slow it down and freeze frame at the point of contact, but if you look at the whole thing in real time, it was incidental contact from a player who was off balance from previous tussle with Mac Allister.

If that had been given as a red to one of our players I would have been angry, because all year long we have accused the refs of not looking at incidents in context and just making things look worse with freeze frams of moments in time (think Calvert-Lewin) .

Maybe, just maybe, they got this one right? (Let the sparks fly)

22 Jan 2024 09:23:55
I'm ok with Kluivert's tackle not being a red. should have been a yellow tho?

ALso in terms of this everyone is against LFC thing, I really think we need to move on from this small minded mentality. It's quite unbecoming and is factually incorrect.

22 Jan 2024 09:32:32
Not a red in my opinion.

22 Jan 2024 09:36:30
It's the consistency really. Jones was sent off for incredibly similar tackle against Spurs.

Refereeing are having an absolute terrible year. They are all over the place and no one knows what is what anymore. They need to regroup in the summer and nail down how they want to referee the game.

22 Jan 2024 09:38:42
Adz28 and the others, I agree on the substance that Kluivert's challenge should have been a yellow cos he was shoved in the back on his way to sticking his leg out and then cos Diaz got there first, I would call that an accident hence, a yellow at best.

Now here is the prob we have that the PGMOL has created and has been caught in it's own trap. In the Jones incident, the ref gave a yellow cos he saw it in real time and deemed it an accident esp. just like Kluivert, Jones was being held by Saar hen hence on the stretch, made full contact with the ball and off the ricochet he slipped over the ball and caught Bissouma.

But what does Darren England in the VAR do? He shows the ref a freeze frame at the end of the play (hence, breaking VAR protocol) to influence the ref's decision (again, against VAR protool) as to why it was a red and the ref had to back his VAR bro. Darren England is the reason we are where we are today, IMO and now the PGMOL will have to come out and make up another kokamame story to back the Kluivert challenge not being a red cos Darren England inserted himself inot something that was none of his damn business. As for Paul Tierney, he hates Liverpool. I've said it.

22 Jan 2024 09:48:35
Apparently not even a foul.

22 Jan 2024 10:03:31
TBH if Jones and Macallister were red, then Kluiverts was a red based on the rules the refs are implementing, i don't think any of the three were reds, but for the sake of consistency then he should of gone.

22 Jan 2024 11:28:45
Genuine question, what are the mitigating circumstances about Kluivert's tackle that make it not a red?

He missed the ball, and went straight down on Diaz' shin with his studs. It happened quickly? Yeah, welcome to top level football mate. It wasn't intentional? I agree, but it doesn't need to be intentional to be dangerous. He was shoved? When? I can't see a shove.

It looks to me like he came out of a slightly physical tussle with Mac Allister, and then rushed straight in high to another challenge that he was always on the stretch for and always second best to. That's a guy getting a rush of blood and he could easily injure someone doing that. Am I missing something? Genuinely. I don't see what makes it a yellow only (or not even a foul as Stevie Wonder ruled) .

Even if I am wrong, we all know that if Kluivert had done the exact same thing, but Diaz had been a bit more unlucky with where his leg was and got injured, VAR would've told the ref to send him off. It just feels like they're punishing outcome, which is bad practice in my opinion.

22 Jan 2024 11:43:39
Awful tackle, over the ball and reckless. Definite red based on precedent set by referees this season. Not even a debate.

22 Jan 2024 12:12:11
I can understand why Var use slow motion for offsides but they should never look at tackles in slow motion or even freeze frames.

Way it’s going games will be finishing 5 a side.

22 Jan 2024 12:22:05
Brummyred, that is the reason I gave: Precedent based on this season. That is Darren England's fault, IMO however since the PGMOL have realised he messed up, they just no longer give red's for such challenges anymore so essentially based on future outcomes, LFC got screwed again via the PGMOL's relentless incompetence.

22 Jan 2024 12:50:37
It’s a definite red for me. Did var even look at it?

22 Jan 2024 12:50:53
There used to be a rule of one foot studs up gets a yellow and two feet gets an automatic red card. Why that has been abandoned is beyond me. You can argue that a one foot challenge can be more dangerous challenge than a two footed one, but then you have to set some simple rules, to start with, for those simple minds running on the pitch with whistle in mouth.

The tackle by Kluivert appeared to be a yellow to me. Not because it was any lesser than Curtis Jones' tackle, but because I prefer to see the Jones red as a mistake that should not be taken as any kind of precedent. There used to be a process in handing out cards. One or two hard fouls are given warnings. Then the next one or two hard fouls get a yellow as a reward. Then the next hard foul gets another yellow, therefore a red and an early shower. Again it seems they are abandoning it. Why? Wasn'it it simple enough? Soon enough football will be turned into a non-contact sport.

22 Jan 2024 12:53:56
As we were saying the other day Oli, they ref on outcome rather than action.

I personally don’t think Kluivert’s is a red. I don’t think we can keep sending players off for accidental contact unless the action is dangerous which in this case I don’t think it was.

However, based on a lot of other red cards we’ve seen this season, not just for Liverpool players but right throughout the league, that is a nailed on red card.

The ref should’ve gone to the screen to be greeted by a still picture of Kluivert stamping halfway up Diaz’s shin and be left with no option but to show a red card. That’s the precedent that has been set so it should be followed in all cases not just sometimes.

22 Jan 2024 13:07:39
Problem is Beckers if that’s the presedence then the ref could easily see a still of Gomez not looking at the ball when he took out the Bournemouth player in the first half and Bradley making contact with the wingers face and add into that Cook (I think it was) giving Bradley a slight kick on the floor after he’s fouled him.

Both teams could finish with 9 men which for me would be when I stop buying tickets.

Not defending the refs but the fact there’s a divide on here saying yellow and red shows that different people see it in different ways.

Kluiverts challenge was worse than Calvert Lewins in my eyes and neither should be a red as well as the other incidents I mention above.

Challenges have to be viewed at full speed. I tackle my son over the field and if it was slowed down social services would probably be knocking my door ?.

22 Jan 2024 13:13:49
If we were given a red for that we'd be raging - yes he's made contact, but a yellow for me

I get the frustrations though, we have had tackles like that, not as bad either, go to VAR but VAR chooses not to get involved? They moved on from it very quickly, which is strange given that it was not even deemed a foul and not worthy of a free kick even let alone a card!

That is the most frustrating thing this season, the decisions in game vary greatly from week to week. A red card one game but not even a foul the next - and it's not just Liverpool this is happening too but all across the league

I would love the PGMOL to just stop apologising to clubs every week and instead actually do something about it - instead of the reactive approach, how about a proactive approach to ensure better decisions are made in games? Just so frustrating every week, you would get better officiating in some of these if they simply flipped a coin.

Given our woes from decisions this seasons lads it almost feels like a Hunger Games quote to be adopted - 'May the odds be forever in our favour' and all of Anfield stands with the fingers in the air salute lol.

22 Jan 2024 14:02:50
JK they are all different types of incidents it’s the foot above the ankle tackles that we are discussing and seems to be what the VAR have been picking on. In this case it was every bit as bad if not worse than Jones’s.

I don’t think it was as bad as DCL just because he jumped in with his foot over the ball and Kluivert was more stretching for the ball but in a perfect world I’d like neither of those to be red cards.

The problem as people have said, is that in another game with different VAR that would be a red card. I don’t agree with it but it has happened and will happen again.

For these types of tackles VAR with its slow motion and freeze frame has just muddied the waters too much. They need to look at the action of the player and forget the outcome. Was it dangerous? Was it with excessive force? Did it endanger the opponent? Were there any mitigating circumstances?

But all they do is freeze the moment of impact and call the ref over then when he sees that he has no choice.

But then we get this tackle where they didn’t do that. Next week they will. It’s just all over the place and nobody knows what’s what anymore.

22 Jan 2024 14:03:47
Paul Tierney in pitch or var is going to be making sense for lot of decisions ?.

22 Jan 2024 14:23:25
Was a yellow card tackle he’s genuinely tried to win the ball and was late . Not a great tackle but he’s not tried to do him has he .

Personally I’d put it in the rash rather than reckless category.

22 Jan 2024 14:35:26
"The ref should’ve gone to the screen to be greeted by a still picture of Kluivert stamping halfway up Diaz’s shin and be left with no option but to show a red card. That’s the precedent that has been set so it should be followed in all cases not just sometimes. "


@Beckers, this right here, is the problem and you have no o ne else to blame but Darren England's eagerness to insert himself into a situation that by all accounts, was properly handled by the on-feld ref who gave Jones a yellow, as well as the trap the PGMOL they created and fell into by trying to back him and the refs up in that game.

Notice, they don't show freeze frames anymore cos that is breaking VAR protocol (then, you have to ask yourself why Darren England did it? ) . Also, they no longer give reds for the same challenges anymore cos they like us, have realised that "I don’t think we can keep sending players off for accidental contact unless the action is dangerous" (your words) .

So what do we have now? LFC have gotten screwed twice. Once where a yellow card was appropriate but got rescinded and a red was shown to Jones. A second time where based on the Jones' precedent, a red was not shown to Kluivert for essentially the same type of incidents. I'll keep saying it: The PGMOL and their constant need to to defend their bros., gaslight us and make useless apologies after the facts rather than improve the system overall, is why we are here.

22 Jan 2024 14:45:13
Listen it was a nailed on red card for me endangering the player's saftey he could have broken the ankle of Diaz referee should be marked down for that but Mr Webb will gloss over that as he normally does and what about the assistant who had an even better view why nothing from him.

22 Jan 2024 14:39:41
"I would love the PGMOL to just stop apologising to clubs every week and instead actually do something about it - instead of the reactive approach, how about a proactive approach to ensure better decisions are made in games? . "

@Bill, haven't you heard? This would require actual work and effort with a goal to make things better as in, the PGMOL actually doing it's job and improving the standard of refreeing in the however, issuing apologies, getting Webbo on TV (with his co-conspirator Michael Owen) to look good while spouting nonsense and gaslighting the public into reject the what they are with their very eyes, is clearly much easier cos none of this, takes actual work to accomplish.

22 Jan 2024 15:03:10
Why are we moaning about refereeing decisions when we’re top of the league having just won convincingly in an enjoyable away game!

For my two cents, I didn’t think it was a red, nor did I think the Jota one was a penalty (assuming we’re talking about the same incident) .

I will say that was a terrific performance by Mac Allistir, not just his passing but I really enjoyed his pressing and aggressive tackling! Looks like he is learning from Endo in that regard!

22 Jan 2024 15:55:28
Beckers I can't really disagree with any of that.

The inconsistency we’ve seen this season is horrendous but I don’t suppose it helps when every decision more or less is broken down into slow motion and freeze frame and then assessed by millions of fans who sit both sides of the fence depending on who they support.

I think most fans of other clubs are just as frustrated as us. Especially Wolves.

22 Jan 2024 16:14:53
Like you say Oli 'this would require actual work' - it's crazy though isn't it? The PGMOL officially apologise to clubs twice a week for 'errors' in the officiating. They do not apologise for VAR not getting involved when it should or that number would be a lot higher lol

Their response to an error being made is to essentially give the officiating team a week or 2 off and then back to normal - hardly a tailored strategy

These 'errors' happen every single week yet nothing is done to stop them or fix them? In what other job on the planet could employees make constant mistakes, leading to a company/ organisation to publicly apologise every week and nothing happens? Jeez any job I have every worked in the last 25 years would have their HR departments going nuts with the P45s lol

That's the truly irritating thing though jokes aside. Mistakes I get, we all acknowledge it'll happen, annoying when it does but hey if it's once in a while then fair enough - but given things as they stand just how on earth does nobody at PGMOL think 'jeez, we need to do something here. '

22 Jan 2024 16:40:36
@Bill, you said it yourself. If we were this bad at our jobs relentlessly making mistakes on a weekly basis, we would be sacked and everyone would have gotten over it already.

For me, it's not even mistakes anymore. It pure arrogance and "I don't give a toss if I screw up" attitude right now cos they know the PGMOL will back them up and so will their allies on MOTD. Seriously, Tierny chalked off a perfectly good goal for us vs Burnley by Gakpo and NOBODY on the face of earth knows why? Same with the fake offside on the second goal that the VAR concocted whereas Salah was pushed into an offside position. Mate, can you imagine what would have happened had we not won that game? Like you said, this is no laughing matter IF you really deep it.

At the end of the day, These guys will do nothing. Improve nothing. Nothing will change and if we are going to win this title, we are going to have to win it playing and winning every game like yesterday as in, making the refs' decisions irrelevant, as hard as that will be based on evidence on the ground i. e the Spurs game.

22 Jan 2024 19:22:39
As much as I dislike VAR and PGMOL, this was down to the ref not seeing/ giving the foul, not an error or inconsistency from VAR. Therefore it's a moot point trying to argue for a VAR mistake.

Since the ref didn't give the foul, VAR does not go in and check it, not even if a red or a foul should've been given. At least that is my understanding of the rules, so you guys will have to correct me if I am wrong.

If indeed I should be wrong, everything I have just explained is a moot point and my future rationale will be questionable, in which case I humbly apologise, and ask the ed's for an option to auto-detonate my posts.

{Ed001's Note - var checks for red cards or rather potential red cards. It won't get involved unless they think it should be a red.}

22 Jan 2024 19:34:53
I will normally judge things by my first reaction from watching it in open play and then once on a replay. Last night I didn’t think Jota’s was a penalty, you’re never getting that and I didn’t think Kluivert’s was a red but thought it could’ve been given because refs and VAR have no idea about the game.

The problem is it’s easy to say that when you won the game 4-0. If we’d drawn or lost the game would I be saying it’s a clear penalty and the most blatant red card I’ve ever seen? Probably ?.

22 Jan 2024 19:41:48
Guess I still have stuff to learn about this game, thanks for the clarity Ed1.
In light of this, I am just as shocked and appalled as the lot of you, that the consistency of these rules seems to be as terrible as my self declared, perfect rationale. Maybe I should apply to become a VAR ref.

And now for something completely different. (explodes)

22 Jan 2024 22:22:33
Mr Case and Mr Souness would love this thread!

22 Jan 2024 23:03:06
People saying ‘it’s not a red for me’, the thing is it’s not about whether you think it’s a red or not, it’s about what the refs have deemed a red card this season. And on that basis, it’s a red card all day. The sheer level of inconsistency is what is makes it so frustrating. I don’t know if Webb being on the tv helps matters or not, on one hand he’s there saying o ops, sorry we’ve messed up again and then defending the decisions made in other cases. The problem is the ones he says were right, well we all see the same incident in the next game and the refs give the opposite decision. One thing I though VAR would bring to subjective decision was some degree of consistency as the VAR can see everything and so nothing is ‘missed’ anymore, but it seems as inconsistent as ever with no real excuse anymore.

23 Jan 2024 05:54:25
For me, I think it's a red, but only because I've played a bit of footy, and that challenge on Diaz has the intention to hurt him.

I say this because if Kluivert, in that exact situation, is actually trying to play the ball, he should be going in with his foot pointing downwards in orelder to get his toe to the ball. To me, that would make the most sense whilst trying to play the Ballin that situation.

The fact that he went studs up, is simply because he intends to catch Diaz.

His reaction afterwards where he says "I didn't touch him" is also a clear sign that he is trying to con the ref. Kluivert knew exactly what he did and he knew he was in trouble

It's almost a question of body position in that moment, and with his studs up, there's no way he was attempting to play the ball.

23 Jan 2024 09:50:11
JLC - the point about the angle of the foot is quite an important distinction to make here. This brings it back to one of our other chats about the framework for how referees can implement the law.

In rugby they've made a clear framework for referees to adjudicate head high tackles. It takes out intent altogether and just assists the referees to assess based on the observable facts.

For me, these red card / not red card / not even a foul incidents are so inconsistent that I think they would benefit from taking a leaf out of Rugby's rulebook as that would least bring some consistency and it would put the onus on the players to adjust their technique.

Would anyone argue if the every single studs up challenge that makes direct contact above the ankle (or something similar) was punished with a red? I certainly wouldn't. If they'd allow themselves, they could provide a framework to allow the ref to assess force and then differentiate between a yellow and a red.

In either case, you can't have identical look tackles that make direct studs up contact on an opposition player be a red card in one game, a yellow in another and not even foul in another game.

23 Jan 2024 10:36:27
Football could learn a lot from rugby Faith.

There's definately scope to look into changing the rule about studs up challenges above the ankle

I for one would welcome this rule.

24 Jan 2024 09:04:41
JLC - it would just make sense and alleviate so much confusion.

24 Jan 2024 15:46:18
So why when harry kane did the same against Robbo why was everyone screaming for a red? the tackle on Diaz was a bad tackle that was just below Diaz Knee if his foot had been planted on the ground and his weight on his leg the lad would have been in plaster . fast or slow motion it was a poor challenge by the lad .



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